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[Freeman]

Why are you making direct PC comparisons in a thread about Scorpio (potential) hardware setup? Relevance?

Because its hard to see the diference between what Xbox is becoming and Steam Machines(PCs)? Why are you so bothered by the comparisons? Xbox doesn't exist in a bubble, comparing it to other products on the market is only natural.

 

[SpartanN92]

So many MBA, Engineering and Marketing degrees in this thread.

Why doesn't gaf just make its own console because obviously based off the combined knowledge of this thread we can do it.

Spoiler

Also our console will have Black Jack! And Hookers!!! You know what... Forget the blackjack

 

[...Scatter...]

I came in here to talk about PS4Neo and maybe Scorpio, but, all I see is crazy comments lol.

It's a struggle

 

[Freeman]

So we can agree that this new console would have both and therefore in your opinion is viable, right?

We can agree to disagree. It most likely won't have exclusives(not to mention enough exclusives) to differentiate it from a direct competitor (PCs). I'll be on my way, enjoy your thread.

 

[greenegt]

I intended to be clear, I don't see how Xbox consoles can be viable without exclusives. Should I pretend to like a product that doesn't seem to have as much value as the alternative as to not hurt peoples feelings?

Also, sorry for making a joke in another thread regarding such a serious subject as console preferences.

The Xbox console is viable. It's for gamers who like their exclusives and don't have a suitable gaming PC. It will also be the most powerful console on the market when Scorpio releases. MS is not trying to battle Sony in sheer hardware sales numbers, anymore. They just want to sell software and services. With their new strategy, they can sell to the PC/PS gamers.

 

[Primethius]

I don't think MS is looking to make Scorpio a direct competitor to PC.

So I don't see why titles being on PC would start to matter now.

They are unifying PC and consoles sure, but all indications seem to be that they are aiming at the dedicated console market.

 

[Fafalada]

but all indications seem to be that they are aiming at the dedicated console market.

Indications are more that they're "taking their ball and going to play in their own court" - Ie. they are looking to create a new market segment alltogether or disrupt existing console model enough to get the same end result.
And if that manages to disrupt PC storefronts as well (Which probably could use some disruption nowadays), that'd just be an added bonus.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

We can agree to disagree. It most likely won't have exclusives(not to mention enough exclusives) to differentiate it from a direct competitor (PCs).

Your hypothesis would be viable if everyone had gaming PC's. That fact that they don't renders it not only worthless, but ridiculous too.

Because if everyone did have solid gaming PC's, the PlayStation would sell in much smaller numbers too.

There's 3 types of core gamers out there -

1- PC Gamers
2- PC Gamers who also own consoles
3- Console only gamers

No 3 is by far the majority population. The fact that an Xbox game is also on PC means nothing to this sect. The only people it does matter to are fanboys and their moronic list wars. "This game doesn't count because it's also on PC, wa wa wa!". Bollocks.

Now can we return to the topic at hand instead of all the blatant Sony evangelism. Thanks!

 

[oldergamer]

Do you know something we dont?

No I don't. Imo it wouldn't make sense to release more then the Xbone and scorpio.

 

[Primethius]

Indications are more that they're "taking their ball and going to play in their own court" - Ie. they are looking to create a new market segment alltogether or disrupt existing console model enough to get the same end result.
And if that manages to disrupt PC storefronts as well (Which probably could use some disruption nowadays), that'd just be an added bonus.

That new market isn't going to come out of nothing. It's still the dedicated console space that their trying to carve a piece out of and maybe a small segment of PC gamers.

There's no new market for them to tap into.

 

[Hockeymac18]

We can agree to disagree. It most likely won't have exclusives(not to mention enough exclusives) to differentiate it from a direct competitor (PCs). I'll be on my way, enjoy your thread.

Why would a console-only gamer care?

 

[SEGAvangelist]

No I don't. Imo it wouldn't make sense to release more then the Xbone and scorpio.

How would it make sense? Devs would need to make 3 versions of Xbox console games. That's a terrible idea.

 

[onQ123]

I don't think MS is looking to make Scorpio a direct competitor to PC.

So I don't see why titles being on PC would start to matter now.

They are unifying PC and consoles sure, but all indications seem to be that they are aiming at the dedicated console market.

Not a competitor to PC but a way to convince devs & consumers to buy into a computer that's a walled garden.

They want to make PC a part of the same ecosystem as Xbox so I don't see it as a competitor to the PC but more of them trying to get the PC gaming market back from Steam.

 

[oldergamer]

How would it make sense? Devs would need to make 3 versions of Xbox console games. That's a terrible idea.

re-read what I wrote dude. I didn't say it made sense. I said the opposite.

 

[EGM1966]

Your hypothesis would be viable if everyone had gaming PC's. That fact that they don't renders it not only worthless, but ridiculous too.

Because if everyone did have solid gaming PC's, the PlayStation would sell in much smaller numbers too.

There's 3 types of core gamers out there -

1- PC Gamers
2- PC Gamers who also own consoles
3- Console only gamers

No 3 is by far the majority population. The fact that an Xbox game is also on PC means nothing to this sect. The only people it does matter to are fanboys and their moronic list wars. "This game doesn't count because it's also on PC, wa wa wa!". Bollocks.

Now can we return to the topic at hand instead of all the blatant Sony evangelism. Thanks!

I've never got the impression that globally console by far is the bigger population. What stats are you basing that on?

I agree on the demographics (although you forgot people who mainly/only game with mobile devices which is also a huge market) but I suspect your console to PC comment is somewhat hyperbolic.

 

[Fafalada]

That new market isn't going to come out of nothing.

Hence my comment about possibly needing to disrupt the entire console model.
But as other comments above me state - their aim "is" to change market positioning and expanding the target audiences, not simply playing in the "console gamer" court.

What stats are you basing that on?

Probably selective stats - if you exclude most of the eSports and other online-only segments as "non-core", you should end up with something smaller than consoles...

 

[EdgeXL]

How would it make sense? Devs would need to make 3 versions of Xbox console games. That's a terrible idea.

I was under the impression that devs would make one Xbox games that scales to whatever system is running it. Was that incorrect?

 

[Outrun]

Read the thread title, then read the OP, then read the source article. I think then it should be pretty clear that this isn't just a Scorpio thread, although I've seen some persons insinuate that it is. Now you are free to create a Scorpio only rumor and speculations thread but i doubt it'l prevent other people from posting in it. But they will likely get banned if they shit post and derail the thread.

Fair points, fair points.

 

[oldergamer]

I'm going to repeat my thoughts posted earlier:

All the talk about MS bringing games to PC. I think MS is bringing "certain titles to PC" as a way to push more publishers to do this in the MS store. I think it servers two purposes:

1. Help bolster MS selling PC games in the now unified store + push publishers to do the same ( being that selling both console and PC games in a unified store is something Steam or Sony cannot offer. ). To publishers, the more ways you have to recoup costs, the more money making opportunities there are for you. You will only have a single cert process for both PC and console.

2. MS is going to give title updates the Xbone titles that now have PC releases. The updated titles will scale up to the new scorpio hardware. So, those older and previously announced titles that won't necessarily drive sales of xbox one base model, can then help push sales of Scorpio. It makes sense if MS is doing the same work with these games on PC already.

So in my mind, either previously released or announced titles coming this year are getting PC releases and support to scale up to newer hardware. It's an effort to leverage money spent as a way to legitimize the MS store & provide consumer incentive to pick up the Scorpio over the base console. New titles announced or shown at E3 going forward possibly won't make their way to PC, and be used to drive sales of the Scorpio hardware while still supporting the base xbone.

I know many people here see MS making PC releases and think they must be stupid since exclusives are what drive console sales. I don't think MS has forgotten this, and they know that exclusives are the only way to differentiate yourself from the competitors, but this is simply leveraging money already spent to drive sales in a different manner during a transition period.

 

[oldergamer]

I was under the impression that devs would make one Xbox games that scales to whatever system is running it. Was that incorrect?

That's correct. Everything for a certain time period will be forward compatible.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

re-read what I wrote dude. I didn't say it made sense. I said the opposite.

Oops. My bad!

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

I've never got the impression that globally console by far is the bigger population. What stats are you basing that on?

I agree on the demographics (although you forgot people who mainly/only game with mobile devices which is also a huge market) but I suspect your console to PC comment is somewhat hyperbolic.

??

Firstly I specifically stated core gamers. Casual / mobile types etc are irrelevant to the argument of who and how buys AAA core games.

Second, last gen there were ~150 million core gaming consoles sold, and that's if we discount the Wii. The gaming PC market is far smaller than those numbers.

 

[onQ123]

How would it make sense? Devs would need to make 3 versions of Xbox console games. That's a terrible idea.

Nope they just make one for the Xbox device family

Device families

Windows 8.1 and Windows Phone 8.1 apps target an operating system (OS): either Windows, or Windows Phone. With Windows 10 you no longer target an operating system but you instead target your app to one or more device families. A device family identifies the APIs, system characteristics, and behaviors that you can expect across devices within the device family. It also determines the set of devices on which your app can be installed from the Store. Here is the device family hierarchy.

device families

A device family is a set of APIs collected together and given a name and a version number. A device family is the foundation of an OS. PCs run the desktop OS, which is based on the desktop device family. Phones and tablets, etc., run the mobile OS, which is based on the mobile device family. And so on.

The universal device family is special. It is not, directly, the foundation of any OS. Instead, the set of APIs in the universal device family is inherited by child device families. The universal device family APIs are thus guaranteed to be present in every OS and consequently on every device.

Each child device family adds its own APIs to the ones it inherits. The resulting union of APIs in a child device family is guaranteed to be present in the OS based on that device family, and consequently on every device running that OS.

One benefit of device families is that your app can run on any, or even all, of a variety of devices from phones, tablets, and desktop computers up to Surface Hubs and Xbox consoles. Your app can also use adaptive code to dynamically detect and use features of a device that are outside of the universal device family.

The decision about which device family (or families) your app will target is yours to make. And that decision impacts your app in these important ways. It determines:

The set of APIs that your app can assume to be present when it runs (and can therefore call freely).
The set of API calls that are safe only inside conditional statements.
The set of devices on which your app can be installed from the Store (and consequently the form factors that you need to consider).
There are two main consequences of making a device family choice: the API surface that can be called unconditionally by the app, and the number of devices the app can reach. These two factors involve tradeoffs and are inversely related. For example, a UWP app is an app that specifically targets the universal device family, and consequently is available to all devices. An app that targets the universal device family can assume the presence of only the APIs in the universal device family (because that's what it targets). Other APIs must be called conditionally. Also, such an app must have a highly adaptive UI and comprehensive input capabilities because it can run on a wide variety of devices. A Windows mobile app is an app that specifically targets the mobile device family, and is available to devices whose OS is based on the mobile device family (which includes phones, tablets, and similar devices). A mobile device family app can assume the presence of all APIs in the mobile device family, and its UI has to be moderately adaptive. An app that targets the IoT device family can be installed only on IoT devices and can assume the presence of all APIs in the IoT device family. That app can be very specialized in its UI and input capabilities because you know that it will run only on a specific type of device.

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/universal-application-platform-guide

 

[nekkid]

I'm going to repeat my thoughts posted earlier:

I definitely think that's what this thread needs!

 

[EGM1966]

Hence my comment about possibly needing to disrupt the entire console model.
But as other comments above me state - their aim "is" to change market positioning and expanding the target audiences, not simply playing in the "console gamer" court.


Probably selective stats - if you exclude most of the eSports and other online-only segments as "non-core", you should end up with something smaller than consoles...

I'd have to dispute selective stats like that. To make a blanket statement your talking the entire market for PC gaming not a subset to compare to consoles.

Globally PC gaming is big and arguably a market MS might do better to target via PC than console.

BYW agree with your view as I read it on MS. I believe they're moving away from trying to be global number one with console and instead moving to target a more specific demographic via a combined console and PC ecosystem.

Whether they can pull it off o don't know: they're close to dead in the water in PC same as mobile phones with Valve dominant and a smaller bunch of nonetheless equally entrenched markets such as GoG. But, I think the play makes sense and I can see how Scorpio (as rumoured anyway) could fit into that.

 

[icespide]

Nope they just make one for the Xbox device family

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/universal-application-platform-guide

this will definitely make things easier but let's not kid ourselves, there will still be work that needs to be done for each Xbox device they're targeting

 

[FordGTGuy]

I thought Spencer said there would not be a 1.5?

The media really took advantage of that one for clicks.

Phil said that if they came out with an upgraded console that it wouldn't be a small upgrade like a Xbox 1.5 He never said that an upgraded Xbox wouldn't happen.

 

[Art Vandilay]

One more week of this. God help us all.

 

[oldergamer]

I definitely think that's what this thread needs!

Shit gets burried in this thread far too quickly. The signal to noise ratio is pretty bad.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Even if it release at early 2017, a lower clocked "480x" is higher chance than 1200mhz 480, because right now 1200mhz is too freaking hot for a console.

No they aren't.

My Alienware X51(a tiny bit bigger then my Xbox One) has much poorer cooling then my Xbox One but can use a GTX 980.

 

[icespide]

One more week of this. God help us all.

unless it isn't announced at E3

 

[Fafalada]

To make a blanket statement your talking the entire market for PC gaming not a subset to compare to consoles.

Agreed - I was just making a guess what the other poster meant with "core". I also disagree with "core" not including those segments - as monetization models aside - games aren't really that different, and anyone who plays competitively is probably more dedicated than say - my mostly- offline gaming habits with 3 consoles and a PC...

But, I think the play makes sense and I can see how Scorpio (as rumoured anyway) could fit into that.

Yea, IMO it'll be largely a question of execution, and having to work across departments in the company which they've traditionally struggled with.

 

[Art Vandilay]

unless it isn't announced at E3

It has to be announced at this point. The whole #creativechatter thing has convinced me we're going to hear something.

 

[Hoo-doo]

unless it isn't announced at E3

Which it won't be. Let's be sensible here.

 

[Chobel]

Again, why would a Scorpio announcement hinder people to buy the XboxOne NOW for Gears 4? If true Scopio is a YEAR away. Not some months/weeks.
A Scorpio Announcement wont kill anything.

And Gears 4 most likely wont even have Scorpio upgrades. You want 4k Gears 4? Get the PC version (which will most likely be announced at E3 or GamesCom)

Because most people can afford to buy only one device, either Slim this year or Scorpio next year. And because Scorpio looks a very exciting product, you can bet many people would rather wait a year than miss the next gen device from MS.

Your hypothesis would be viable if everyone had gaming PC's. That fact that they don't renders it not only worthless, but ridiculous too.

Because if everyone did have solid gaming PC's, the PlayStation would sell in much smaller numbers too.

There's 3 types of core gamers out there -

1- PC Gamers
2- PC Gamers who also own consoles
3- Console only gamers

No 3 is by far the majority population. The fact that an Xbox game is also on PC means nothing to this sect. The only people it does matter to are fanboys and their moronic list wars. "This game doesn't count because it's also on PC, wa wa wa!". Bollocks.

Now can we return to the topic at hand instead of all the blatant Sony evangelism. Thanks!

OK, you're just making shit up.

 

[daman824]

I've never got the impression that globally console by far is the bigger population. What stats are you basing that on?

I agree on the demographics (although you forgot people who mainly/only game with mobile devices which is also a huge market) but I suspect your console to PC comment is somewhat hyperbolic.

I don't believe so. I'd argue a majority of PC's and laptops in people's homes don't even have a dedicated graphics card.

Moreover, how many steam users buy and play AAA games vs smaller, less demanding ones. And then how many people can run those games well? I don't know the answer. But if everyone had a PC that could run the games coming out today really well, console gaming would no doubt be smaller.

Last years steam survey showed that only 34% of people using steam run their games at 1080p. And the amount of people who run their games higher than that are significantly smaller.

I mean, even in steams hardware survey, 3 of the top ten graphics cards are Intel. With the next 2 after that (5 out of 12) also being Intel

 

[potatohead]

Most people are not up to date on what is always coming next. People impulse buy consoles all the time. Lots of Xbones will be sold in the holidays even when Scorpio is announced to come next year or whatever.

 

[nekkid]

The media really took advantage of that one for clicks.

Phil said that if they came out with an upgraded console that it wouldn't be a small upgrade like a Xbox 1.5 He never said that an upgraded Xbox wouldn't happen.

What's really the difference between an upgraded Xbox and a new generation Xbox, anymore?

Is there a specific percentage increase, or something?

Spoiler

That last question was rhetorical. Don't anybody actually answer that with any modicum of sincerity.

 

[Hoo-doo]

What's really the difference between an upgraded Xbox and a new generation Xbox, anymore?

Is there a specific percentage increase, or something?

Spoiler

That last question was rhetorical. Don't anybody actually answer that with any modicum of sincerity.

It's the beauty of PR. It means exactly what you want it to mean.

 

[...Scatter...]

It has to be announced at this point. The whole #creativechatter thing has convinced me we're going to hear something.

Which it won't be. Let's be sensible here.

Test your might. MORTAL KOMBAT!

 

[onQ123]

this will definitely make things easier but let's not kid ourselves, there will still be work that needs to be done for each Xbox device they're targeting

Yes but they have the API in place to make things easier & make Xbox much like PC & Mobile devices. they make the game knowing that it's a Xbox game & the different Xboxs will play them as their specs allow them to play the games.

 

[I Reclaim3mer 117]

We can agree to disagree. It most likely won't have exclusives(not to mention enough exclusives) to differentiate it from a direct competitor (PCs). I'll be on my way, enjoy your thread.

Does everyone have a high end gaming PC to play all of MGS studio games? where do you get this notion?

 

[JaggedSac]

Not a competitor to PC but a way to convince devs & consumers to buy into a computer that's a walled garden.

They want to make PC a part of the same ecosystem as Xbox so I don't see it as a competitor to the PC but more of them trying to get the PC gaming market back from Steam.

No, they are merely trying to create a market for their Windows Store. Steam is small fry in comparison to their goals. Games are a mere piece of the bigger puzzle.

 

[FordGTGuy]

No, they are merely trying to create a market for their Windows Store. Steam is small fry in comparison to their goals. Games are a mere piece of the bigger puzzle.

The idea that in order for a OS to have an app store that the OS must become a walled-garden is so silly.(Hell the app store on Windows 10 isn't even a walled garden as you can side-load custom apps.)

 

[AmyS]

The Neo is supposedly a lower clocked 480 while the Scorpio seems to run a stock clock 480.

If that much is true (if) then Neo would be using a 36 CU Polaris 10 (Ellesmere) with 2304 stream processors, and under clocked to 911 MHz. ~4.1 TFlops

Scorpio would use the full Polaris 10 chip (Ellesmere XT) with all 40 CUs active (2560 stream processors) running at stock or higher clock. 5.5+ TFlops

 

[LukasTaves]

Nope they just make one for the Xbox device family

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/get-started/universal-application-platform-guide

That's for API support, obviously there will be optimizations and fine tuning done on each xbox version. Though Ms is developing tools to help streamline this process too.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

OK, you're just making shit up.

LOL no I'm not. There's currently ~60 million consoles sold, and ever increasing.

You really think there's anywhere close the same amount of PC gamers who own at least a medium spec gaming PC that's capable of running these games?

Come on, I mean this stuff is obvious. The majority of core gamers play on console, period. If they didn't all consoles would be in trouble.

Anyway this is all silly and way off topic.

 

[EGM1966]

I don't believe so. I'd argue a majority of PC's and laptops in people's homes don't even have a dedicated graphics card.

Moreover, how many steam users buy and play AAA games vs smaller, less demanding ones. And then how many people can run those games well? I don't know the answer. But if everyone had a PC that could run the games coming out today really well, console gaming would no doubt be smaller.

Last years steam survey showed that only 34% of people using steam run their games at 1080p. And the amount of people who run their games higher than that are significantly smaller.

I mean, even in steams hardware survey, 3 of the top ten graphics cards are Intel. With the next 2 after that (5 out of 12) also being Intel

So nothing but AAA gaming counts?

I can get someone saying X demographic prefers to play on console but as total markets those games count. It's not just steam, it's the Mobas and all the PC gaming in Korea, etc. That's the total PC gaming market and from what I've seen posted on GAF it's not smaller than console.

Besides once you segment it goes both ways. You could equally argue consoles are just for those who want to play a narrow niche of AAA games, PC offers more diversity for monetisation vs high risk expensive AAA games.

In the end the point is the total gaming market is large and a big chunk of it, probably the largest if you combine PC, mobile gaming, etc. is not on console.

Hence why MS seeming to switch gears (pardon the pun) to focus a lot more on PC makes sense.

Their success in console hasn't really been amazing.

Huge sunk cost to get in the game and trounced in first gen they competed in.

Solid second entry but still didn't break out worldwide and another unforeseen huge cost (RROD) and more or less drew with their main demographic competitor and lost to a left field competitor.

This gen so far has been mainly one step forward two steps back for them.

Meanwhile new markets for gaming (and media consumption) have sprung up that dwarf consoles and they completely missed mobile smart devices and a huge OS market into the bargain.

From a business perspective I do not expect them to continue to focus on consoles in isolation as their saviour. I expect them to settle instead for a specific demographic and market on console as part of a combined push with PC to try and get traction beyond the limited console market.

Scorpio sounds a lot like a device targeting US and UK market and a narrow segment of gamers (but I suspect a very lucrative one) to me while also placing them to gain any VR console customers should VR truly prove popular.

Their move on PC allows access to broader global market than they've ever reached via console, the PC VR market and more general gamers (to be blunt if bet MS would rather sell popular mobile game numbers via W10 store on laptops and PC's than 5million console units sales with huge development budget).

We'll see but I believe MS is about to officially change their play in the market and the demographic they're going to focus on.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Leaving aside the $20 and 6 month gaps you have invented, most of the worldwide console buying market don't share your rabid enthusiasm for MS hardware. In fact, the Xbox brand is dead or on life support in many parts of the world.

Not the case, people just ended up going a different way. That's really all there is to it. I think a lot of folks read way, way too much into things sometimes, ultimately seeing things that truly aren't there. The Xbox brand isn't dead or on life support by any stroke of the imagination in a lot of those places that you think. All they ever needed to do was come back to consumers with something new and exciting, and then people would make an evaluation as to whether or not it was something they need/want. There's such a thing as people buying something and saying to themselves, "alright, this is good, I need nothing else in this range of product for quite some time."

They made that decision and many of them chose PS4. That's all there is to it. It doesn't mean those same people will never look at or consider another xbox system ever. The mindset that you describe largely only exists on forums such as GAF, but the broader mainstream of games specific consumers aren't so hardcore or committed to hating or not supporting a particular company or brand. On GAF and other similar forums people hold lasting grudges. Outside of that bubble, not so much.

 

[Lister]

LOL no I'm not. There's currently ~60 million consoles sold, and ever increasing.

You really think there's anywhere close the same amount of PC gamers who own at least a medium spec gaming PC that's capable of running these games?

Come on, I mean this stuff is obvious. The majority of core gamers play on console, period. If they didn't all consoles would be in trouble.

Anyway this is all silly and way off topic.

Uhm.. yes?

Just taking a single slice of the PC market: Steam (estimated to be about 20% of the entire PC market) we have 160 + million active users. According to the Steam hardware survey over 50% have PC's that right about match or surpass the PS4 in terms of gaming performance.

That's over 80 million gamers.