Support NeoGAF

[The Technomancer]

I mean I get the idea that anyone seriously saying they are going to vote Trump just because their candidate isn't the nominee is silly. We get that. But I really don't see that happening after everyone falls in line to support Hillary.

Because Hillary will demonstrably be better for millions of people than Trump. To hold your nose over ideology when we're literally just talking about voting seems...petty. No one is asking you to go out and campaign for her

 

[Frozenprince]

So can we actually talk about the legitimate issue of liberal racism and the divide it's brought into the party or nah? Cause I for one am sick to death of Bernie Sanders and talking about him.

 

[studyguy]

Well im a minority, i voted for Bernie. My parents voted for HRC because she seemed more pragmatic and they still remember the Clinton 90s.

I just don't believe a word she says, and just cause she was part of the boom 90s don't mean shit to me.

But hey GAF HRC fans say she will be the second coming for blacks so we shall see. I don't buy it and all the hotsauce in the world wont make me.

They could have also remembered 2000. Honestly it wasn't all that long ago that W took the presidency and RNC ran amok.

 

[Tallshortman]

If Bernie had done particularly well with the minority and especially the black vote he wouldn't have gotten lost all the southern states where black folks have the strongest percentage of representation in the democratic primaries.

 

[Macam]

None, because they're all capitalists and wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. Bernie was the one who should have done it, though what he supports is really more social-democratic than socialism.

I'm not sure how being a democratic socialist somehow means it falls to Sanders, especially since he was allegedly dismissive of minorities. Being a capitalist doesn't mean you can't be critical of it, so why shouldn't any other candidate also be able to make this specific point?

Cornel West would be more than happy to make that point, but we all know how NeoGAF feels about West. So why make this point at all?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Sanders made a few major mistakes with people of color, but they were ultimately mistakes that cost him the entire election.

First, he really took Obama for granted. It was clear why Hillary hit him repeatedly during debates on whether he stood with Obama, even when the president's approval ratings weren't as high as they are now. His favorability with minorities has always been high and Sanders never really had a good answer for his lukewarm feelings on Obama.

Second, the campaign seemed utterly baffled about how to do minority outreach. Sending Cornell West as your ambassador to African American communities was MADNESS. Killer Mike wasn't exactly a workable surrogate, either. At some point, the campaign seemed to think the best surrogates were their most enthusiastic supporters, who would quickly shut down any criticism or questioning. This birthed things like "You know Sanders supports welfare, right?" and "Black people are low-information voters and they would understand why Sanders is better if they had better internet access."

Thirdly, Sanders' campaign had to save face about losing hard in the south, so they decided to just say the south didn't matter. I'm from the south. Everyone there who is young and liberal hates it there, but we hate it because it is our own. You're painting all of us with the same brush and just saying, because we didn't vote for you, we don't matter. I know a lot of people who personally felt insulted by Sanders' demeaning comments about the region, especially as demographic changes are turning some formerly solid red states into purple.

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

You're thinking black and white. I voted for Bernie but any minority with a modicum of sense would be able to know there's definitely a race problem in the ranks of Bernie's flock and that shouldn't deter you from supporting the man or the left in general. But it is (was) a problem. As a minority, you should be used to making concessions. Supporting a candidate while a lot of his supporters are racist, selfish, tunnel visioned dipshits should be something you can make two and two together. It doesn't make you a racist. But if you have any power of observation you should be able to notice the language and actions of many of his supporters. It doesn't mean all Sanders supporters are white. It doesn't mean all of them are racist. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Stop making this about you in some weird game of "but I'm a minority and I'm fine" thing like you're the only minority who supported this dude. You ain't special, BB.

I meant to type more but hit submit on accident. Sorry. I'm just a white dude by the way. Reading my post back makes it seem like I am claiming to be a person of color but I'm not. What I meant to say: How do you think minorities feel about how they've been treated by Sanders supporters and his campaign. His supporters have been pretty vile, he and his campaign ignored the south(black people) and then after losing the south the man himself said he would win Minnesota because the voters there are "too smart." So does that make the south and all the black people dumb?

 

[ThisGuy]

Really good article. A bit depressing to read as a Sander's fan, but it's hard to ignore the truth.

I feel like the Sander's campaign failed for a lot of reasons, and journalists are going to spend forever trying to dissect it. Figure it out. I don't think it's any one thing, and at this point maybe I don't care too much anymore either. I'm ready to get in behind Hilary and watch Trump go down. In the end, avoiding that disaster is the best for everyone.

This is where I'm at. Well I've been behind Hillary too. It was just a matter of who won. It's fascinating to see how far Sanders went and doubly so as to why he didn't reach certain demographics. What he lacked is what's most interesting for me I suppose.

 

[Hilbert]

Do you remember PUMA? When Clinton supporters refused to vote for Obama back in 2008? Not trying to shit on Clinton supporters here--just saying--when there's a close primary or one that is hotly contested, stuff like this happens frequently.

It's not going to tank things. And for people bringing up Nader--Gore lost Florida because tens of thousands of democrats voted for Bush.

I don't think any of this addresses what I was talking about. I never said this is a new thing, I never gave my opinion of PUMA, and I don't think I even mentioned if I thought it would affect the outcome.

I said the strain of racists in the progressive movement is distressing to me. Bernie or bust is the most recent and very clear manifestation of them.

 

[kirblar]

Do you remember PUMA? When Clinton supporters refused to vote for Obama back in 2008? Not trying to shit on Clinton supporters here--just saying--when there's a close primary or one that is hotly contested, stuff like this happens frequently.

It's not going to tank things. And for people bringing up Nader--Gore lost Florida because tens of thousands of democrats voted for Bush.

The difference is that Bernie was delegitimizing the process, poisoning the well for both Clinton AND for future Democratic candidates. While the campaign was brutal, neither Clinton nor Obama claimed the other was "stealing" the election from them.

PUMAs (aka racists) were probably on their way to the GOP anyway. This is something different.

 

[nocturnalis]

Something that my mother brought up (we're black) is ringing more true that ever. White people always want black people to explain why they vote a certain way and think that they should always sacrifice their votes for the candidate that's more popular with white people. Seriously, if I see another Sanders supporter ask a Hillary supporter that's white or a woman "May I ask why?" again...

 

[Suikoguy]

So can we actually talk about the legitimate issue of liberal racism and the divide it's brought into the party or nah? Cause I for one am sick to death of Bernie Sanders and talking about him.

I think part of the problem of what you are trying to do. It's too abstract, then you have the far easier to discuss Sanders campaign looking at everyone.

The only solution I can see is to try to get people to see things from another perspective which can be challenging.

 

[akira28]

Said it over in PoliGAF- where the hell has this POLITICO been for the past two decades?

in gestation. I know I'm going to run into the 2 asshats who used to run/spoil the show when Politio first came out, and we'll all have a laugh at how Politico one day mysteriously became legit.

So can we actually talk about the legitimate issue of liberal racism and the divide it's brought into the party or nah? Cause I for one am sick to death of Bernie Sanders and talking about him.

no. we're not discussing anything. its' merely been exposed so we get to remember there is an elephant in the corner. We're still mostly gonna ignore him.

 

[entremet]

I just think Bernie lacked political skills--building coalitions, messaging, media savvy.

I enjoyed his run and thought he illuminated many issues.

Sad that he's older as I think another run would've helped him. He was very green.

Clinton is seasoned campaigner and it showed.

 

[Link]

Well good, glad to see that bullshit brought up again.
Thanks for your contribution.

You made it that far? As soon as I saw "HRC" I decided the post wasn't worth reading. It's funny how much in common certain Bernie supporters have with right-wingers.

 

[studyguy]

That term "Low Info Voters" is some real fucking shit. Like that peaked hard after the southern states. You can't put parts of the US on blast for not falling in line with you or dismissing it without expecting a backlash. It's not like democrats in other parts of the states are somehow worth less than those in other states, if you go by the delegate count then sure whatever, but don't dismiss their opinions outright. Come on.

The idea was pushed beyond just race as well though, economically hit communities don't deserve to get downplayed either. What was it the Federalist that put out that paper on how the poor working class are basically next to trash sometime around Feb?

Awful stuff this election year.

 

[sphagnum]

I'm not sure how being a democratic socialist somehow means it falls to Sanders, especially since he was allegedly dismissive of minorities. Being a capitalist doesn't mean you can't be critical of it, so why shouldn't any other candidate also be able to make this specific point?

Cornel West would be more than happy to make that point, but we all know how NeoGAF feels about West. So why make this point at all?

I mean, sure there are plenty of liberals who are willing to critique capitalism since they want to make it better without removing it, but it's easier for someone whose whole platform is based on "I hate the rich and the 'billionaire class' and don't want their funding" to argue about the fundamental flaws of capitalism and why it needs to be replaced with a new system than someone who is fine with millionaires and the existence of capitalism.

But Bernie is really a social democrat and not a socialist, so he wouldn't go that far. That said, by virtue of positioning himself as a radical candidate, he should/could have been the one to not just make a reformist but a more radical critique of capitalism. Kind of like how Coates was annoyed because Bernie wouldn't support reparations - it's not that anyone expects that he would, but because he's selling himself as a revolutionary, he really should be able to say these things. And it would show that he has a deeper, more intersectional understanding of both capitalism and racism than just "Wall Street bad".

 

[StopMakingSense]

Which is functionally the same as ignoring them.

And then going on to discount their worth in the primary process because they were "Southern" states.

 

[cDNA]

No, it isn't. Stop dancing around the real issue this is why shit ain't getting better.

The age it have certain influence, while the majority of older whites vote republican,the older black and latino tend to vote democrat. Hillary does better with older demographics in general, so Bernie will have an advantage with white democrats(younger in average) and disadvantage with the black/latino(older in average). Obviously that don't explain all the differences in votes. Also you have to take in consideration some of the state with higher white democrats voters held caucuses instead of primaries and that tilted the scales in Bernie's as seen in the Nebraska caucus vs Nebraska Primary.

 

[Fat4all]

So can we actually talk about the legitimate issue of liberal racism and the divide it's brought into the party or nah? Cause I for one am sick to death of Bernie Sanders and talking about him.

Personally, I've always found it difficult to deal with racial issues on a national level (not so much on a personal level). As a white guy, I can certainly support the efforts and donate to campaigns and funds, but I fell like me telling black people what they need to do or accomplish to "make it" to be extremely condescending to their efforts. It's just not a life I can completely relate to.

Maybe it's that feeling, or lack of feeling of condescension that separates some of the rhetoric from white liberals when it comes to issues minorities face.

I dunno if it can really be boiled down to the level of "I got me" ideals, at least not for most people I'd hope.

 

[D i Z]

So can we actually talk about the legitimate issue of liberal racism and the divide it's brought into the party or nah? Cause I for one am sick to death of Bernie Sanders and talking about him.

Not going to happen. Liberals are as bad about approaching their own racism as anyone else. We could beat this drum all day long, and it will be quietly ignored. It will be dismissed as someone elses racism. It'll be thrown back onto minorities if all else fails.

 

[Slayven]

Outside of the South, which he absolutely did ignore because he knew he couldn't get any traction there, it's not really accurate to say he "ignored" those groups, so much as he didn't really know how to effectively weave his actually pretty thorough platform for dealing with many of their issues into his stump speech, because he's intellectually and rhetorically one-dimensional.

One thing he could have done is not associate with Cornell West,

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

So can we actually talk about the legitimate issue of liberal racism and the divide it's brought into the party or nah? Cause I for one am sick to death of Bernie Sanders and talking about him.

It's a hard issue to say much about, I think. It exists, and it will probably continue to exist for as long as sociocultural segregation is a major factor in American life. I'd argue it's certainly gotten better in the last few years, as the media and the internet have helped drive awareness of how much of a disparity still exists between the nonwhite and white experience in the USA, but fixing a divide that has existed for over 4.5 centuries is going to be a multi-generational process, and there has to be an understanding on both sides that discomfort, tension, and disagreement are going to be unavoidable parts of fixing it.

Edit: Yes, Cornell West should have gotten the boot long ago, but kooky Bernie getting kooky Cornell is unsurprising to me. West is one of those guys who has a few highly lucid points in a see of "WTF?", and the fact Bernie had to go that far out of his way to find a black surrogate is very telling of just how much of a problem the man has with building coalitions.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

This was something that became really clear after the reactions to the BLM members interrupting Bernie to find out where he stood on the issue.

 

[cDNA]

Also many of this type of analysis of race/gender/age are based on exit polls, that sometimes are wildly inaccurate.

 

[richiek]

Yep, which is why I chuckle when the Bernie or busters here demand that we treat them with respect because we need them. Sorry, no. Better to cut off an infected limb before it spreads to the rest of the organism. This is exactly what happened to the GOP when the Tea Party came about. They decided to pander to them because they didn't want to risk alienating them. Now they've taken over and the result is Donald Trump.

Yep, any Democratic politicians who support Clinton are tarred and feathered by Berniebros as "corrupt" and part of the establishment, just like the Teabaggers. When Elizabeth Warren, who has been championed by Berniebros then endorsed Hillary, it's amazing how quickly they turned on her.

 

[ThisGuy]

Not going to happen. Liberals are as bad about approaching their own racism as anyone else. We could beat this drum all day long, and it will be quietly ignored. It will be dismissed as someone elses racism. It'll be thrown back onto minorities if all else fails.

I've felt for a long time one of the issues is the fact a lot of white people don't live around minorities. I don't know how rampant that is within the liberal party. But for instance, while in college I am around a lot of white, young, liberals who have never lived around minorities. So it comes off, to me anyways, as support from a distance without any real understanding of people.

 

[devilhawk]

Hasn't this been known since 2008 when the racist Hillary voters lost to the misogynist Obama voters?

Though I guess young voters correlated with racist voters this cycle instead of the misogynist ones.

 

[Macam]

I mean, sure there are plenty of liberals who are willing to critique capitalism since they want to make it better without removing it, but it's easier for someone whose whole platform is based on "I hate the rich and the 'billionaire class' and don't want their funding" to argue about the fundamental flaws of capitalism and why it needs to be replaced with a new system than someone who is fine with millionaires and the existence of capitalism.

But Bernie is really a social democrat and not a socialist, so he wouldn't go that far. That said, by virtue of positioning himself as a radical candidate, he should/could have been the one to not just make a reformist but a more radical critique of capitalism. Kind of like how Coates was annoyed because Bernie wouldn't support reparations - it's not that anyone expects that he would, but because he's selling himself as a revolutionary, he really should be able to say these things. And it would show that he has a deeper, more intersectional understanding of both capitalism and racism than just "Wall Street bad".

So he should say that he supports reparations and note that capitalism is supported by institutional racism so a subsection of the liberal cognoscenti could feel a bit better about his use of the term "radical" and/or "revolutionary".

 

[Wafflecakes]

Also many of this type of analysis of race/gender/age are based on exit polls, that sometimes are wildly inaccurate.

True, but at this point we have had 50 states worth of exit polls... which is a ridiculously large sample size and mostly show the same thing.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yep, any Democratic politicians who support Clinton are tarred and feathered by Berniebros as "corrupt" and part of the establishment, just like the Teabaggers. When Elizabeth Warren, who has been championed by Berniebros then endorsed Hillary, it's amazing how quickly they turned on her.

Untrue. They turned on Warren when she declined to endorse before Massachusetts.

 

[kirblar]

I've felt for a long time one of the issues is the fact a lot of white people don't live around minorities. I don't know how rampant that is within the liberal party. But for instance, while in college I am around a lot of white, young, liberals who have never lived around minorities. So it comes off, to me anyways, as support from a distance without any real understanding of people.

This is exactly the issue. I suspect Bernie's numbers are going to be lower among white voters in those more diverse areas.

 

[Kimawolf]

Yep, any Democratic politicians who support Clinton are tarred and feathered by Berniebros as "corrupt" and part of the establishment, just like the Teabaggers. When Elizabeth Warren, who has been championed by Berniebros then endorsed Hillary, it's amazing how quickly they turned on her.

Well id not say it. I understand completely. HRC folks simply think Bernie is full of pie in the sky dreams and ideas. I even agree with it to a point.

And i dont see us as "enemies", as there is only one enemy. Trump.

 

[jon bones]

Great article and highlights a lot of my problems with those who still support Sanders.

They really don't get it.

 

[pigeon]

Said it over in PoliGAF- where the hell has this POLITICO been for the past two decades?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/business/media/politico-mike-allen-jim-vandehei-leaving.html

All of the top executives at Politico are leaving.

So either they're taking the opportunity to finally do real journalism, or now that they're out of the way the team can actually do real journalism. You pick!

 

[Mael]

I'm cutting ShockingAlberto post despite the content being great.

Second, the campaign seemed utterly baffled about how to do minority outreach. Sending Cornell West as your ambassador to African American communities was MADNESS. Killer Mike wasn't exactly a workable surrogate, either. At some point, the campaign seemed to think the best surrogates were their most enthusiastic supporters, who would quickly shut down any criticism or questioning. This birthed things like "You know Sanders supports welfare, right?" and "Black people are low-information voters and they would understand why Sanders is better if they had better internet access."

This is probably the biggest thing that shaped my view of Sanders as a candidate.
Then I did some light research and to say I didn't like what I found was an understatement...

Seriously there's 1 thing a national politician NEVER does is basically throw part of the country under the bus.
Sanders did exactly that with the South.
I mean WTH possessed him to ever try to pull that "these guys are not that important anyway" when you have guys there who worked their butts off to relay his message and everything! Sure it didn't work that well but now everything they did not only served no purpose but on top of that they were thrown under the bus with PP and others who weren't so quick to be in lockstep with him.

 

[Tallshortman]

I've felt for a long time one of the issues is the fact a lot of white people don't live around minorities. I don't know how rampant that is within the liberal party. But for instance, while in college I am around a lot of white, young, liberals who have never lived around minorities. So it comes off, to me anyways, as support from a distance without any real understanding of people.

This is why sometimes, even though I personally think it's from an ignorance rather than a racial bias standpoint, some liberals can come off as condescending and paternalistic toward racial issues rather than collaborative and genuine.

 

[ThisGuy]

This is exactly the issue. I suspect Bernie's numbers are going to be lower among white voters in those more diverse areas.

Probably, and the Hillary hate among some of them is real. I caught a few questions as to why I liked Hillary also from one supporter.

 

[Wafflecakes]

I've felt for a long time one of the issues is the fact a lot of white people don't live around minorities. I don't know how rampant that is within the liberal party. But for instance, while in college I am around a lot of white, young, liberals who have never lived around minorities. So it comes off, to me anyways, as support from a distance without any real understanding of people.

Yup.

Which is also reflected by Bernie himself having been born in diverse NYC, then "white flighting" to one of the whitest and least diverse states in the nation.

It really isn't surprising that he comes off as tone deaf on minority issues.

 

[pigeon]

Dingding

To add on, free college means shit because the system has already wrecked many of these kids before they even step foot into high school.

Yeah, this is a great point.

A black kid who has a felony charge hung on him before he's 18 is not going to benefit from a free college program, because dollars to doughnuts there's going to be a box to check.

 

[sphagnum]

So he should say that he supports reparations and note that capitalism is supported by institutional racism so a subsection of the liberal cognoscenti could feel a bit better about his use of the term "radical" and/or "revolutionary".

He shouldn't play radical if he doesn't want to be radical. But I'm not sure how "explaining how capitalism and racism are intertwined" is something that can only appeal to "liberal cognoscenti" , as if the only people who could care about such a subject are ivory-tower-elites.

 

[kirblar]

Dingding

To add on, free college means shit because the system has already wrecked many of these kids before they even step foot into high school.

This is the big knock against Affirmative Action as a remedy as well- it's trying to fix an infection with a band-aid.

 

[Dominican Power]

Look at all the states Bernie has won. It ain't hard to tell.

 

[Fat4all]

This is why sometimes, even though I personally think it's from an ignorance rather than a racial bias standpoint, some liberals can come off as condescending and paternalistic toward racial issues rather than collaborative and genuine.

I feel like it's something that has to be an effort. I try to keep up to date on news everywhere, but I make as much effort as I can to adsorb what I can about both minorities and the LGBTQ. Not to make myself sound smart or to 'win' debates on gaf, but because I have queer and black friends & family.

And I'd never in a million years tell my friends "I know how you feel", because there's no way I could every possibly know how it feels.

 

[D i Z]

I've felt for a long time one of the issues is the fact a lot of white people don't live around minorities. I don't know how rampant that is within the liberal party. But for instance, while in college I am around a lot of white, young, liberals who have never lived around minorities. So it comes off, to me anyways, as support from a distance without any real understanding of people.

Well here's a question then. Is that really support? What is being supported exactly when it's conditional upon arbitrary results and coming from a place of separatism? Sounds more like support for ego and personal identification, those feel good agenda's and nothing at all useful to anyone with a pulse with anything to lose.

I mean seriously. How hard is it to get a minorities list of needs and perspectives in this day and age? You have to be willfully ignoring us, and using us for your own amusement to be campaigning like this in 2016.

 

[The Technomancer]

Dingding

To add on, free college means shit because the system has already wrecked many of these kids before they even step foot into high school.

The DailyKos piece above is spot on. Education is broken on many levels besides just tuition

 

[NimbusD]

Didn't he often times win a majority of minorities and women under 40?

Yeah it's a pretty big oversight when you don't realize or mention that Bernie does have minorities on lockdown, just the young ones, which are much lesser in numbers than the elder.

Which aside from Bernie is a huge fucking problem for the future of the Democrats.

 

[Frozenprince]

This is the big knock against Affirmative Action as a remedy as well- it's trying to fix an infection with a band-aid.

All of the policies presented this cycle are that.

The education system is build on broken foundations. Slapping "free" on top of it ain't gonna fix it.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah it's a pretty big oversight when you don't realize or mention that Bernie does have minorities on lockdown, just the young ones, which are much lesser in numbers than the elder.

Which aside from Bernie is a huge fucking problem for the future of the Democrats.

Lockdown is an exaggeration. He won minority youth, but not with the lockdown margins he won white youth with

 

[Aerogamer]

When a subset of his supporters refuse to vote in the election or even support the opposing party, it indicates they never cared about racial equality and minority rights. People who truly cared would swallow there pride and do everything to make sure that the bigot on the other side had no chance. Go ahead and vote how you want, but don't expect to be taken seriously when you spout your self claimed "progressive views".