whatevermort
Member
Oh fuck off. "I don't know if this is too insensitive"? You knew exactly how insensitive it was, and you posted it anyway. Asshole.
First suicide of a SEAL trainee in the program's history
- Thread starter Kadin
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What the hell is a stress card? And does crying about something really make you soft? I didn't know that was the official measuring unit of hardness
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
I suppose you're a SEAL? Probably an expert in Japanese too
TheXfactor
Member
There are some horrible things in war, I understand that, but there has to be a limit to this training
That depends on how you get into the program I think. I've talked to a few guys that tried out and most of the ones that make it are called "mustangs" which are marines that choose to try becoming an officer or join the special forces after their first or second enlistment. So if they fail they go back to the job that the government paid to teach them. If that isn't the case then you do whatever the navy tells you to do since you signed up for four years. According to some navy guys I used to know, SEAL training is the same as navy bootcamp but with the extra things tacked on in some places ( Such as hell week).
Imperfected
Member
The training is fine. Even starting the training is completely voluntary and you can quit the training any time you want.
The reason the suicide rate has been so low is because of exactly that. The suicide rates for Basic Training/Boot Camp are actually much higher, comparatively, and they aren't even remotely as arduous.
I'm not an expert by any means, but I don't think there should be. This isn't trying out for the varsity football team, this is the absolute top tier of military special forces.
No man.
The reason why they do such crazy shit is because they want to see if and when you break down.
These guys go on covert operations in the worst hellholes on the planet. They need to know that the guys covering their backs won't give up, hesitate, or slow down when things get unfathomably and inhumanely difficult and stressful.
The guy's suicide is a tragedy, but it's also the first ever. The SEALs know best how to adapt accordingly moving forward.
Forerunner
Member
This is the reason why you rarely hear about Special Forces operators getting killed in combat because their training is some of the best in the world and it prepares them for it. If there are combat related deaths its generally something out of their control such as an aircraft crashing.
TheSchwab_7
Member
I don't think there needs to be a limit to their training because they are being trained to know what to do when shit hits the fan in combat or during a mission.
What needs to be done for all soldiers is better access for mental health resources. Just look at all of the suicides of soldiers coming home from a tour of duty.
There is a basic training for going into the armed forces, and there should be a basic training for adapting back to civilian life.
Hesemonni
Banned
I did something somewhat similar during my military training. Definately not something I'd wanna go through again.
First thing i thought off. These trainings are just so damn brutal like brutal i have seen series from it on discovery and natgeo channels it is ridiculous what they do.
Forerunner
Member
This is something I agree with. When I was separating from the service they made you go to these classes that are suppose to help with the transition. However, they weren’t very helpful at all. Now I understand why so many people are lost after they separate.
First off, no chances are you really don't know.
Second off, these are special forces, these guys have to be capable of much more than you can possibly imagine.
I don't know of any examples of navy seals, but here is a link to Lachhiman Gurung who was a Gurkha (Nepal special forces) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lachhiman_Gurung
Tldr: for those that don't want to read, he was at a critical location with two others, their position gets attacked by 80+ Japanese soldiers.
His two comrades fall immediately, grebades land near him, he starts calmly throwing them back, until one blows his hand off, severely injuring his arm, chest, and shoulder.
He opens fire ONE-handed reloading as well holding the position.
The Japanese eventually retreat, he is given credit for an estimated 30 kills.
He was also credited as inspiring the regular soldiers in the other firing lines to hold their ground when they were going to break.
Might as well be talking about your driver's ed course in a thread about spaceship piloting, lol.
Yup, as with my example above, special forces isn't just some flowery term. You're either cut for it, or you're not (which is extremely likely based on the fail rate)
nephilimdj
Member
Worst thing about special forces training is all the diarrhea, body just isnt designed for that much exercise. Surprised they dont look after them for the night.
But this is the first (and only) time ever this is a headline..?
entremet
Member
That was a dude who was drafted.
SEAL aspirants are self selected.
Still fiction. Also the SEAL guy didn't kill others.
Ahh ok. Hope your brother will succeed!
PdotMichael
Banned
What's the deal with the USA and super hard training programs?
Their special units aren't anything special based on all kinds of international competitions.
Their special units aren't anything special based on all kinds of international competitions.
nature boy
Member
Looks like he couldn't deal with failure, wonder how the instructors deal with people dropping out.
I guess it's a harsh environment.
RIP.
I guess it's a harsh environment.
RIP.
entremet
Member
I've read various SEAL bios from vets. The initial training is usually seen as nothing in retrospect.
It's more of a mental weed out process. It's actually one the smallest aspects of SEAL work.
But TV and film love to make it a big deal.
Besides these are warriors, not desk jockeys. They handle very sensitive missions.
nature boy
Member
They're not "super hard" compared to what the SAS goes through, it just the culture of "winning and never giving up" that gets to them, i.e., they're super competitive people.
freenudemacusers
Member
As a fellow large consumer of moe, I feel we possess the expertise to make such evaluations and whole heartedly agree.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Highly-regulated competitions are not what special forces are designed to be good at. Neither are they free of political pressures. Using those as some sort of metric is akin to using a preseason football game to determine how good your team's season is going to be.
entremet
Member
Yep. It's silly.
Bruce Springsteen
Member
Don't even know how to respond to this post besides it sums up keyboard warrior mentality perfectly
PdotMichael
Banned
If they are pointless people wouldn't do them.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I was listening to a excellent Dan Carlin Hardcore History episode on this yesterday, about this subject of toughness; http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-33-blitz-old-school-toughness/
Carlin asks; Could we beat our grandparents in war? If technology, numbers and everything being equal, coming down to it, would we today have the same level of toughness as our grandparents had to endure during WW2.
And he goes further than that; would our grandparents generation have been as tough as their grandparents?
Going back to Sparta where you would throw a baby off the cliff if it didn't got through inspection, because the Spartans as a Warrior society had neither number, trade or anything that made them great against the other city states. Their only currency was having the best soldiers, and so Carlin says that being uncompromisingly tough was a question of national security.
The way I look at it; Washing out is not a sign of weakness, as much as it is a sign of lacking extremism. I believe it is a normal psychological response to cry, to not want to do things when you are pushed to the brim.
What is fascinating about units like the Navy Seals is all the mythos, coping strategy and means of attack that is attributed with them being able to endure things normal people wouldn't.
And I think that goes on in other aspects life of life, including sports. If you think about it; professional athletes are people who take repetitive and isolated training to levels where their bodies are often pushed beyond the brink of what it is capable off. They keep doing it, long after it stopped being fun as a recreational activity due to the goal.
Where "normal people" want to live their lives, have social lives, eat hamburgers and drink beer, athletes are often giving up so many things, including prospect of their long-term health for something almost asine.
I think it is not being normal to have those qualities that you can endure that level of stress.
Do we still see the value in that sort of old-school toughness, and is there an argument to be made that being a more caring society makes us more soft?
My own personal bias says that the laws of patriarchy has been usurped to an extent that we don't have that connection anymore as previous generations might have had who lived in dangerous and violent times and had to cope with insanely grueling things. On the other hand, I think our generation has gained a lot of skills in other areas that make more sense.
I also wonder if history is biased. Maybe soldiers and Marlboro-style tough John Wayne type men have always been a dime in dozen. Maybe there has always been people who just couldn't cope. And which maybe was just downplayed because awareness of mental health and trauma was a lot less.
If you raise your kids in a harsh manner, do you really make them tough in any way that gives value to that word?
Carlin asks; Could we beat our grandparents in war? If technology, numbers and everything being equal, coming down to it, would we today have the same level of toughness as our grandparents had to endure during WW2.
And he goes further than that; would our grandparents generation have been as tough as their grandparents?
Going back to Sparta where you would throw a baby off the cliff if it didn't got through inspection, because the Spartans as a Warrior society had neither number, trade or anything that made them great against the other city states. Their only currency was having the best soldiers, and so Carlin says that being uncompromisingly tough was a question of national security.
The way I look at it; Washing out is not a sign of weakness, as much as it is a sign of lacking extremism. I believe it is a normal psychological response to cry, to not want to do things when you are pushed to the brim.
What is fascinating about units like the Navy Seals is all the mythos, coping strategy and means of attack that is attributed with them being able to endure things normal people wouldn't.
And I think that goes on in other aspects life of life, including sports. If you think about it; professional athletes are people who take repetitive and isolated training to levels where their bodies are often pushed beyond the brink of what it is capable off. They keep doing it, long after it stopped being fun as a recreational activity due to the goal.
Where "normal people" want to live their lives, have social lives, eat hamburgers and drink beer, athletes are often giving up so many things, including prospect of their long-term health for something almost asine.
I think it is not being normal to have those qualities that you can endure that level of stress.
Do we still see the value in that sort of old-school toughness, and is there an argument to be made that being a more caring society makes us more soft?
My own personal bias says that the laws of patriarchy has been usurped to an extent that we don't have that connection anymore as previous generations might have had who lived in dangerous and violent times and had to cope with insanely grueling things. On the other hand, I think our generation has gained a lot of skills in other areas that make more sense.
I also wonder if history is biased. Maybe soldiers and Marlboro-style tough John Wayne type men have always been a dime in dozen. Maybe there has always been people who just couldn't cope. And which maybe was just downplayed because awareness of mental health and trauma was a lot less.
If you raise your kids in a harsh manner, do you really make them tough in any way that gives value to that word?
entremet
Member
Honestly, it's a fun and competition thing. But those do not rival real world missions at all.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
That and driven, focused people are weird. Probably less likely to ask for help or recognize they need help.
Terrible situation.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Oh yeah, let me put this alone: some of y'all ain't shit for suggesting it's the program and not the disease. As a personal survivor of depression and being suicidal, i see my personal circumstances as being a part of it but the disease can hit anyone, anytime.
And failure can bring some things to light but society, as a whole, has trouble grappling with this disease.
Depression isn't famous, like heart attacks, nor has easy ways to identify it, nor has a national campaign to correct the situation. In that, we all have a responsibility for this man. We bear responsibility when our Congress and local leaders defund psychiatric care, ignore the data and criminalize psychiatric health issues.
He wasn't soft. He had a disease. He needed help. Luckily, i got help from a person who recognized the signs. He, did not.
And failure can bring some things to light but society, as a whole, has trouble grappling with this disease.
Depression isn't famous, like heart attacks, nor has easy ways to identify it, nor has a national campaign to correct the situation. In that, we all have a responsibility for this man. We bear responsibility when our Congress and local leaders defund psychiatric care, ignore the data and criminalize psychiatric health issues.
He wasn't soft. He had a disease. He needed help. Luckily, i got help from a person who recognized the signs. He, did not.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
...think about that one for a few seconds. Can you think of any other endeavor humankind undertakes that is ultimately pointless? Are they still done? Competitions are not war. This really should not need explaining.
Toughness and courage is something that's incredibly hard to quantify. In the past due to great tradgedy people were tested to their limits and survived. Nowadays less people are pushed to those extreme limits in western countries but when they are similar levels of resolve are usually found
PdotMichael
Banned
"Real world missions" include factors which are out of control of the special forces. That's the reason people are doing such trials in the first place to boil down everything until you can compare them.
Nations still doing trials when they are buying military hardware and just don't take what is "combat proven" for many good reasons.
highrider
Banned
My generation was tough but these new kids are soft, there's a unique take! I was in the Army from 85 to 91 back when the steel pot was still the standard issue helmet. I see this type of mentality on social media a lot. It's ridiculous, stop it. Most of the people in the military I know have had multiple deployments to combat zones, if anything it's a much more dangerous career now.
I remember my DI telling us about how mothers are making kids softer these days. He basically said you maggots aren't in the stress card program.
entremet
Member
I remember reading that deployment rotations are worse now. Mostly because we have less combatants, so smaller pool to draw from.
old manatee
Banned
The whole point is to break people down into nothing, so that you can build a warrior from scratch that will do whatever the government tells them to.
I've met truly broken people who made it through the break down phase, but were let go before the build up phase.
Of course the government just washes their hands of any responsibility and sends them back into society.
I've met truly broken people who made it through the break down phase, but were let go before the build up phase.
Of course the government just washes their hands of any responsibility and sends them back into society.
freenudemacusers
Member
boil what down? unless these trials include close air support via an air force or any joint op action i'm not sure what they would truly demonstrate. strange thing to armchair command about in any event.
WAT?
Your kids are soft as hell nowadays drivel is utter bullshit. What does the poor unfortunate passing of a talented youth have to do with "kids are soft as hell nowadays"? How are kids too soft these days?
This is one of the toughest exams in this country. This young man was deemed capable of taking the exam so he is more than qualified and exceptional. The vast majority of us could not stay awake for 50 hours straight without sleep anyways.
double jump
you haven't lived until a random little kid ask you "how do you make love".
OK shut up and gtfo.
PdotMichael
Banned
Love the downplaying for no reason.
One wouldn't need to be in the military field to realize that trials and analysis of specific parts in businesses and engineering are done to find flaws and potential for improvements.
Recently there was a tanker competition in Germany with all kinds of NATO participants with focus on human factors which showcased that American tankers lack training in camouflaging their tanks and doing maintenance without support.
It's not about childish "we would bomb you away anyway real war" nonsense.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Armchar navy seal is a new thing
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