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[Renekton]

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...ndo-shooting-some-malaysians-welcome-killings

Lots of people in my country (Malaysia) applauding the killings or calling it a US conspiracy.

 

[EdibleKnife]

I am somewhat perplexed at the motivation for the shooting being conspicuously absent in most headlines.

Don't want want to breed sympathy for LGBTQ people. They're the ones that are supposed to be persecuting Christians and diddling children in public restrooms after all.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...ndo-shooting-some-malaysians-welcome-killings

Lots of people in my country (Malaysia) applauding the killings or calling it a US conspiracy.

I honestly don't think I can sigh in disappointment any more today. I'm literally spent

 

[Durask]

Lots? 0.044 per resident in that article.

Country Guns per 100 Residents
United States 112.6
Australia 21.7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Sure, but that's not "no guns".
No guns in Japan or Singapore.

 

[RevolverRoden]

Homosexuality is considered a sin in Islam. This is a fact.
Islam is definitely a reason used to justify execution of homosexuals in certain countries. This is a fact.
Whether there actually is a punishment for homosexual acts in Islamic law or not is debated and not a fact. I've seen people quote hadith here (sayings of the prophet) saying the punishment is execution, but these may not be authentic as far as I know b/c punishments for homosexuality during the prophet's time was not really a thing and there are no hadith regarding them. The Quran also has no specific punishment IIRC. I'd argue most American muslims would believe that homosexuality is not punishable by execution if by anything at all (especially in a non-muslim country).

Important to make some distinctions

 

[reckless]

Turkey was the seat of Ottoman Caliphate, which was a legitimate one, before Ataturk. Ottomans decriminalized homosexuality long before modern secular Turkey was created.

Okay, still an outlier.

It also doesn't stop many other countries and people either being okay with killing gay people or being fine with criminalizing it based mostly on religion.

 

[Ashes]

Sure, but that's not "no guns".

Fair enough. Just didn't think it was fair saying 'lots' but I guess it is a relative and subjective term.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Sure, but that's not "no guns".
No guns in Japan or Singapore.

What's the point of nitpicking here? First we had someone nitpicking Australia's pellet/airsoft guns stance and now this. Australia is one of the modern countries to ban guns with a population that still possessed them and so far it works. This is why Australia is being brought up and this is why it is used as an example for banning guns in the US.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

http://www.advocate.com/crime/2016/6/12/desperate-families-search-loved-ones-after-harrowing-texts

Horrifying

 

[everyday math]

J.K. Rowling

Luis Vielma worked on the Harry Potter ride at Universal. He was 22 years old. I can't stop crying. #Orlando

 

[Ashes]

Homosexuality is considered a sin in Islam. This is a fact.

Is it? I'm not learned enough in the topic to argue otherwise - though I am familiar of the grounds some gay muslims use to prove their defence. But on whose authority do you speak?

 

[clay_ghost]

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...ndo-shooting-some-malaysians-welcome-killings

Lots of people in my country (Malaysia) applauding the killings or calling it a US conspiracy.

Don't want to signal out any country but I am great the reaction in Singapore even for Muslims are against this killing and most are saying it's not a Muslim thing especially during Ramadan.

 

[EatinOlives]

This is such a shit tragedy especially because it's multiple debates at once:

-Gun control debates
-LGBTQ acceptance debates
-Radical Islam debates

So people with agendas are going to choose to ignore or emphasize their debate of choice, willingly avoiding the fact that these are all intertwined and with this specific tragedy, you can't have one debate without the other.

 

[Ashes]

This is such a shit tragedy especially because it's multiple debates at once:

-Gun control debates
-LGBTQ acceptance debates
-Radical Islam debates

So people with agendas are going to choose to ignore or emphasize their debate of choice, willingly avoiding the fact that these are all intertwined and with this specific tragedy, you can't have one debate without the other.

I'm open to discuss all three. I think Besada said it best. There are no easy answers.

 

[RevolverRoden]

Is it? I'm not learned enough in the topic to argue otherwise - though I am familiar of the grounds some gay muslims use to prove their defence. But on whose authority do you speak?

It's almost unanimously agreed that homosexual acts (i.e. gay sex) are sins. Being homosexual (i.e. being attracted to the same sex) is not a sin. I say this based on the Quranic verses talking about the people of Lot, who "indulged in homosexuality" (wikipedia's words) and incurred God's wrath after many warnings from Lot (a prophet).
I know there are some muslims who try to make a case for it not being a sin. I'm not an expert, but this is pretty much the mainstream understanding of the issue as far as I know. Maybe mainstream understanding will shift towards the more liberal view in the future, but that's what it is now

 

[Jumeira]

I am somewhat perplexed at the motivation for the shooting being conspicuously absent in most headlines.

He seemed like a hateful and mentally disturbed individual, going by those closest to him. His father and his ex wife have mentioned this.

But I'd like to know why too, he doesn't seem motivated by religion, as in he wasn't religious but decided to make reference to it, but was angry for some reason regardless of his beliefs. What triggered him? Some reports mentioned he was offended by a gay couple being affectionate in front of his parents. Terrible either way, prayers go out to the victims and thier familes.

 

[AnathemicOne]

This is such a shit tragedy especially because it's multiple debates at once:

-Gun control debates
-LGBTQ acceptance debates
-Radical Islam debates

So people with agendas are going to choose to ignore or emphasize their debate of choice, willingly avoiding the fact that these are all intertwined and with this specific tragedy, you can't have one debate without the other.

I'm open to discuss all three. I think Besada said it best. There are no easy answers.

We have the means and example to address/solve one of the three debates but we don't because people rather play with their toys and disregard human life.

 

[SexyFish]

Is it? I'm not learned enough in the topic to argue otherwise - though I am familiar of the grounds some gay muslims use to prove their defence. But on whose authority do you speak?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

He's right in that it is considered a sin.

With few exceptions all scholars of Sharia, or Islamic law, interpret homosexual activity as a punishable offence as well as a sin.

Not trying to just dump entire article on you but it is a good read.

 

[EatinOlives]

I'm open to discuss all three. I think Besada said it best. There are no easy answers.

Just as an aside, I wasn't trying to single anyone out, it just hit me after the whole day of hearing people go "no no no it's not really a gun debate, it's a radical Islam debate!" or what have you, that makes this a terrible tragedy. They won't learn anything because of people predisposed to fixating on one single thing.

 

[Any Questions]

My patience for guns is wearing thin. I use to just want tighter regulations but it just keeps getting more ridiculous and more people keep dying.

Firstly my deepest sympathies with the poor people grieving right now. What a disaster. A mentally ill nutter, WHO was know to the FBI and investigated for his support with ISIS, was still able to buy a gun.

WTF and some folks in the US think tighter gun control is an attack on their rights.

Grow up people. Not everybody is adult enough to own one.

 

[Fusebox]

Actually you have a lot of guns.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...s/news-story/9ee47e8a89e8700adda0d6bce51a2559

Damn, almost 0.5 guns per resident, how many guns does America have per resident?

Edit: Looks like the US has 0.88 guns per resident, tbh I thought it'd be higher.

 

[Ashes]

It's almost unanimously agreed that homosexual acts (i.e. gay sex) are sins. Being homosexual (i.e. being attracted to the same sex) is not a sin. I say this based on the Quranic verses talking about the people of Lot, who "indulged in homosexuality" (wikipedia's words) and incurred God's wrath after many warnings from Lot (a prophet).
I know there are some muslims who try to make a case for it not being a sin. I'm not an expert, but this is pretty much the mainstream understanding of the issue as far as I know. Maybe mainstream understanding will shift towards the more liberal view in the future, but that's what it is now

Slavery was pretty mainstream too. Ideas die away. These debates will be had between scholars for time eternal. I don't think it's right to label these things as facts.

 

[Codeblue]

Damn, almost 0.5 guns per resident, how many guns does America have per resident?

Edit: Looks like the US has 0.88 guns per resident, tbh I thought it'd be higher.

I think you missed a 0 on the Australian number. 0.044.

 

[ElTorro]

Can we talk about how a Christian speaker said the same thing before introducing Ted Cruz?

We can talk about all instances of religious insanity and bigotry if you like. But it's the nature of current events that we talk about what just happened. But, of course, you know all that.

Why does it matter if it was in Orlando?

Really?

Do you only hate Orlando Muslims?

Can you please elaborate and provide more substance than a thinly veiled accusation in a drive-by shitpost?

 

[Ashes]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

He's right in that it is considered a sin.



Not trying to just dump entire article on you but it is a good read.

I'm reading that and I'm left confused. How then is same sex-intercourse legal in Burkina Faso?

 

[zoukka]

Bombing requires planning and know-how and the casualties are variable. You can defend against an attacker with a knife. An AR needs just a bag to conceal it and can inflict horrible damage like in this case.

Ban those fucking guns already.

 

[NullPointer]

[...] We like to believe that things happen for a reason, but it's rare that things happen for a single reason. Things happen because a confluence of reasons and timing occur. Mentally ill people rarely engage in violence. Religious people rarely engage in violence, Violent people, worldwide, rarely have access to guns. Here, we create the conditions for perfect storms all the time, because we mix mental health issues, easy availability of guns, and pathological philosophies.

God damn. That's a frighteningly well put indictment.

 

[SexyFish]

I'm reading that and I'm left confused. How then is same sex-intercourse legal in Burkina Faso?

Sharia law isn't involved in their judicial system. Not to say they LGBT are treated well there.

Side note: There really is an article for everything on wikipedia.

 

[dejay]

I think you missed a 0 on the Australian number. 0.044.

Australia has around .15-.2 guns per person. That article is about particular Sydney suburbs. Rural areas would have a higher representation.

 

[m_shortpants]

snip

Great post.

 

[pacificrex]

Searching for a mechanical solution to a human problem. I'm not sure it's possible in this specific case. People like this guy want the streets of the collective West to flow with blood. They want strict Sharia Law everywhere in the world and will destroy everyone and everything to get it. Sharia Law is the opposite of everything the liberal West stands for. We'd be wise to recognize the problem and speak plainly (and respectfully) about it.

 

[m_shortpants]

Searching for a mechanical solution to a human problem. I'm not sure it's possible in this specific case. People like this guy want the streets of the collective West to flow with blood. They want strict Sharia Law everywhere in the world and will destroy everyone and everything to get it. Sharia Law is the opposite of everything the liberal West stands for. We'd be wise to recognize the problem and speak plainly (and respectfully) about it.

Which is why his wife and father have described him as not religious at all in the slightest, right?

Cmon.

 

[FyreWulff]

Searching for a mechanical solution to a human problem. I'm not sure it's possible in this specific case. People like this guy want the streets of the collective West to flow with blood. They want strict Sharia Law everywhere in the world and will destroy everyone and everything to get it. Sharia Law is the opposite of everything the liberal West stands for. We'd be wise to recognize the problem and speak plainly (and respectfully) about it.

lol, Christianity is more successful at trying to install Bible based law than the boogeyman of Sharia - see also, bathroom bills. It just doesn't have a two-syllable fearphrase to describe it under umbrella terms. It's also been proven over and over again that attackers like these are barely religious and can't even correctly cite the Quran when arrested. They're criminals hiding behind excuses.

 

[pacificrex]

Which is why his wife and father have described him as not religious at all in the slightest, right?

Cmon.

Believing a word this guy's family says at a time like this, with this spotlight, seems extremely gullible.

 

[reckless]

Which is why his wife and father have described him as not religious at all in the slightest, right?

Cmon.

His wife was 5 years ago and his dad supports the Taliban not really a great person to listen to.

 

[pacificrex]

lol, Christianity is more successful at trying to install Bible based law than the boogeyman of Sharia - see also, bathroom bills. It's also been proven over and over again that attackers like these are barely religious and can't even correctly cite the Quran when arrested. They're criminals hiding behind excuses.

See I hear this all the time. But sorry. I lived in Afghanistan for many years. I know better. I'm not sure who has been spreading that they're all just ''hiding behind religion'' but you've been fooled. These radicals will kill themselves at the drop of a hat in martyrdom. Such reckless greed, right? It couldn't possibly have to do with their interpretation of their religion.

This is so bizarre reading stuff like this. It's like some are living in a different dimension.

 

[GHG]

Which is why his wife and father have described him as not religious at all in the slightest, right?

Cmon.

And you believe them because...?

 

[Ashes]

Sharia law isn't involved in their judicial system. Not to say they LGBT are treated well there.

Side note: There really is an article for everything on wikipedia.

So Burkina Faso, a muslim majority country, is not anti-lgbt by law. But if Shariah law were implemented it would be? According to you?

Does a Muslim majority country stop being muslim if its laws are secular? who decided that?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Humans are shitty, we've been killing each other in the name of something or other in various ways for thousands of years. No amount of gun control, immigration control or any control will change that, we are just shitty end of the day we are just animals with flawed brains and there's just too many of us

Fatalistic nonsense. Progress does exist and legislation does help with that, and will help again. Nothing will ever be perfect but that doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for progress.

 

[Joel Was Right]

These sort of incidents will unfortunately happen again in the future. The real question is how society responds to it. The fact that he was a US citizen rather than a foreigner will make for interesting politics following the suggestions to ban Muslim immigration into the country. What is Trump going to suggest now? Internment camps?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

It amazes me how people are so willing to jump to banning guns and anti-muslim arguments instead of just targeting the largest elephant in the run: anti-lgbt rhethoric.

 

[Ashes]

And you believe them because...?

He's following where the evidence leads?

Are we not supposed to?

I guess I haven't personally heard them say this.

 

[Real Hero]

These sort of incidents will unfortunately happen again in the future. The real question is how society responds to it. The fact that he was a US citizen rather than a foreigner will make for interesting politics following the suggestions to ban Muslim immigration into the country. What is Trump going to suggest now? Internment camps?

Yeah just until 'we sort things out' . It wouldn't surprise me

 

[FyreWulff]

See I hear this all the time. But sorry. I lived in Afghanistan for many years. I know better. I'm not sure who has been spreading that they're all just ''hiding behind religion'' but you've been fooled. These radicals will kill themselves at the drop of a hat in martyrdom. Such reckless greed, right? It couldn't possibly have to do with their interpretation of their religion.

This is so bizarre reading stuff like this. It's like some are living in a different dimension.

Interviews from the Paris attackers, hostages of ISIS describing their kidnappers that we've rescued have all been consistent that the majority of them are no more than the equivalent of gang recruits here in the US. Angry young people convinced they can solve their problems with violence and more concerned with "damage woo" than anything else.

It's also facepalm worthy when non-Muslims portray Islam as this giant block of people in lockstep agreement when Islam is just as schismed and fractured as Christianity. People will easily mentally separate Westboro from any pro-LGBT Christian factions, but seem incapable of recognizing the same split is in Islam. I refuse to be worked into a frenzy by otherization and tribalism.

 

[Kurtofan]

See I hear this all the time. But sorry. I lived in Afghanistan for many years. I know better. I'm not sure who has been spreading that they're all just ''hiding behind religion'' but you've been fooled. These radicals will kill themselves at the drop of a hat in martyrdom. Such reckless greed, right? It couldn't possibly have to do with their interpretation of their religion.

This is so bizarre reading stuff like this. It's like some are living in a different dimension.

I'm not sure radical Western Muslims are exactly like Afghan Muslim radicals, society is totally different.

 

[Diffense]

It's almost unanimously agreed that homosexual acts (i.e. gay sex) are sins. Being homosexual (i.e. being attracted to the same sex) is not a sin. I say this based on the Quranic verses talking about the people of Lot, who "indulged in homosexuality" (wikipedia's words) and incurred God's wrath after many warnings from Lot (a prophet).
I know there are some muslims who try to make a case for it not being a sin. I'm not an expert, but this is pretty much the mainstream understanding of the issue as far as I know. Maybe mainstream understanding will shift towards the more liberal view in the future, but that's what it is now

I am by no means a Bible believer anymore but I found it fascinating that a part of the Bible that talks about why Sodomites were bad did not mention homosexuality.

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen

Now as most people tell it homosexuality was THE reason Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. So I found it interesting that this scripture explicitly calls Sodom out for being arrogant, overfed, unconcerned and not helping the poor or needy rather than loving gay sex. Given the popular association of Sodom with homosexuality you'd expect that to be the first thing mentioned.

 

[pacificrex]

I'm not sure radical Western Muslims are exactly like Afghan Muslim radicals, society is totally different.

Sure, I know. But you have to understand that much of their ideas are inexorably linked. That's my only point.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I'm not sure radical Western Muslims are exactly like Afghan Muslim radicals, society is totally different.

Doesn't ISIS use social media propaganda to recruit western muslim kids trying to do the "right" thing? It's worked more than once.

Just an aside, but your logic makes no sense.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Actually you have a lot of guns.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...s/news-story/9ee47e8a89e8700adda0d6bce51a2559

I believe this would be skewed, looking at wealthy suburbs, I imagine a fair few of those guns need to be registered by home owners/employers who are employing private security guards.

 

[Gunslinger]

Religious extremism is bad.
Homophobia is bad
Obsession of guns is bad

Peace

i agree 100%. Why can't poeple just live and let live instead of trying to shove their ideology down other people's throat. Live and let live! it's 2016 not 500 AD. Most of teachings in religion is outdated. People should take the good teachings from their religion(such as value all life, be a good and respected person in society, help your fellow humans out) and leave the nonsense in there like anti-LGBT, or push your religion into non believers or all kind of violence or slavery. That kind of old teachings don't fit in our modern society. It's nothing but bunch of mumbo jumbo. The world has changed a lot since the dark ages but unfortunately lot of these religious teachings haven't. We live in a time where we understand things more. People should value academics and get educated. And not follow these outdated books literally.

 

[AnathemicOne]

It amazes me how people are so willing to jump to banning guns and anti-muslim arguments instead of just targeting the largest elephant in the run: anti-lgbt rhethoric.

Guess what, it is guns. Friday night, in Orlando, in the same fucking city, we had a single target-shooting/assassination with both religion and LGBT-hate absent. Again 2 days ago, the same weekend, the same city.