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[FyreWulff]

On a side note, mass surveillance is doing a bang up job preventing this sort of thing from happening isn't it? Both the Boston bombers and this guy were known to the FBI but they still failed to stop an attack. The whole defense for mass surveillance was for it to stop things like this. The only "terror plots" that FBI is stopping are the ones they create and fund themselves. Snowden was right in that recent Vice interview, they're collecting so much it renders them ineffective.

Again, some of you need to upgrade your posts per page!

Unfortunately more people will be for more surveillance rather than accepting the fact that it doesn't work.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Yes, they should be on a list. The republicans and the NRA however see that as a threath to gun rights. So they voted against it.

It's not really hard to see why. The difference between being put on "a list" and having a criminal record is that the former can happen without you breaking any laws and without a trial. That's bad for all manner of reasons, so it's not difficult to see how it is a threat to gun rights.

 

[oti]

I'm just wondering how many times you have to dance this dance until you change. It's embarrassing and heartbreaking.

 

[Bleepey]

Honestly the way way for gun laws to change is a mass shooting at a NRA or conservative convention. They won't rally care until it affects their own. That's my two cents.

This is still difficult to comprehend. I saw this thread before I went walking and thought "20? Shit," but 50? That number is just frightening.

I have thought that but I'd be damned if I am typing that shit out online, knowing my luck someone will do that. The NRA know this and that's why their conventions are gun free zones.

 

[teruterubozu]

I'm just wondering how many times you have to dance this dance until you change. It's embarrassing and heartbreaking.

Sandy Hook was not a tipping point. Orlando isn't the tipping point. there is no tipping point.

 

[Parakeetman]

Japan has guns. So does Singapore.

That's not the point though. All these countries (Japan, AUS, UK. Canada etc etc) all have very restrictive gun laws. Multiple checks are done, almost most guns are used for target shooting or hunting.

Also you can't just get a gun that can hold magazines. Majority of guns are shotguns or rifles. Sure there are still guns, but it's nothing like that of the US.

There hardly are any legal firearms here when you consider the owners vs. population. From a separate article

There were 236,979 guns registered with authorities in 2013, in a country of 127 million people.

Its getting even less these days with how expensive the upkeep is. Which is why hunters are dropping in numbers and young folks are not really picking up the slack due to those very same costs.

Which is a problem as due to this there are not as many people who are able to regulate the wildlife that causes issues for the environment. Following link below guy does a really good write up on it on top of having been an actual part of the community here in country. No idea if the guy is still around though. Regardless good write up once again.

http://yabanjinlifestyle.blogspot.jp/

 

[platakul]

I'm just wondering how many times you have to dance this dance until you change. It's embarrassing and heartbreaking.

Until the America imagination expands beyond "getting rid of guns is impossible" which is one of the most cowardly and terrible rhetorical stances in a nation full of them

 

[Joni]

It's not really hard to see why. The difference between being put on "a list" and having a criminal record is that the former can happen without you breaking any laws and without a trial. That's bad for all manner of reasons, so it's not difficult to see how it is a threat to gun rights.

Of course. But it is another sign on how the Republicans are acting against their own denouncements. Like how they always point to mental health issues as the reason for shootings, and then pulling any funding for programs to combat those issues. And if that same list can be used to block access from planes and to judge credit scores, maybe it is suited for blocking people from buying murder weapons.

 

[Milly Osworth]

Do we know yet if this guy was brainwashed by ISIS or just a crazy person that uses ISIS as an excuse to do horrible things?

 

[CyclopsRock]

Of course. But it is another sign on how the Republicans are acting against their own denouncements. Like how they always point to mental health issues as the reason for shootings, and then pulling any funding for programs to combat those issues. And if that same list can be used to block access from planes and to judge credit scores, maybe it is suited for blocking people from buying murder weapons.

Maybe, but there's no constitutional amendment giving Americans the right to board aeroplanes or have their credit history secret. Fundamentally what the Republicans and the NRA want is, IMO, irrelevant until the 2nd amendment is re-interpreted by SCOTUS. Too many of these attacks are committed by people who haven't broken a law so clamping down on their access to guns will be very difficult (impossible?) to do legally until the 2nd amendment is reinterpreted in a significant way.

 

[HeySeuss]

The largest mass murder at a school in the US was done with homemade bombs. It's definitely more convenient to use guns, but there are far deadlier methods terrorists will fall back on if access to guns is impossible.

What restricting access to guns will do is reduce the amount of spur-of-the-moment homicides. I don't think this is something we can really ignore.

That's a little disingenuous considering it was in 1927 and they didn't have anything resembling the types of weapons people have access to today. Kinda comparing apples to oranges although if guns were actually harder to get, then I do agree that these incidents would still happen just by different means.

But the occurrences would be fewer, and I think more would actually be stopped beforehand than with guns.

 

[phisheep]

People that want to blame inanimate objects for killing people aren't getting to the root of the problem. I'm a gun owner. I'm ok with stricter gun laws. The government can check my background as much as they want. I'm ok with it. I'll go through all the training in the world. I don't care. The law abiding gun owners that I know would likely do the same. Do you really think stricter gun laws are going to stop people from wanting to kill other people?

Yes, I think they might. Bear with me a bit here.

Our wants and desires, like pretty well everything else about us, are influenced by the environment that we live in. And, aside from the few seriously deluded, what we most want is often something that is tantalisingly just about within reach. Like nobody in the 19th century really wanted a mobile phone.

Wants don't just happen out of the blue. They grow. A desire to kill might be strangled at birth in the absence of the means easily to do so. If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail, and if you grow up surrounded by guns and reports of shootings then problems look like they can be shot away.

Similarly a desire to do harm might easily grow into a desire to kill if the weapons are readily available.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Do we know yet if this guy was brainwashed by ISIS or just a crazy person that uses ISIS as an excuse to do horrible things?

I don't think we'll ever know for sure what his deal was, and he's too dead to comment at this point. It seems clear that he hated gays, and that he agreed with DAESH inasmuch as they also hate gays. His ex wife thinks he had bipolar disorder, so it's possible that there's a mental health issue in the mix too, though she's a victim of abuse at his hand and not an expert.

I'm sure most people will end up favouring the explanation which most validates their world view, no matter what the official explanation ends up being.

 

[Drackhorn]

If the discussion will be about gun control we will have learned nothing from this terror attack. That would be the worst outcome in my view.

The key factor is HATE against gay people.

 

[Milchjon]

People that want to blame inanimate objects for killing people aren't getting to the root of the problem. I'm a gun owner. I'm ok with stricter gun laws. The government can check my background as much as they want. I'm ok with it. I'll go through all the training in the world. I don't care. The law abiding gun owners that I know would likely do the same. Do you really think stricter gun laws are going to stop people from wanting to kill other people? .

That's an argument that only sounds sensible in theory.

Wanting to do something and being able to are different things, the latter usually depends on the tools you have available.

I can want to travel 500 miles today. Without a car or some other method of transportation I simply won't be able to.

I can want to drive a nail into a wall. Without a hammer I will have a real hard time to do so.

Limiting access to these tools, especially if bodily harm is their only purpose, might not change the intentions, but it very much changes the outcomes.

 

[Walpurgis]

If the discussion will be about gun control we will have learned nothing from this terror attack. That would be the worst outcome in my view.

The key factor is HATE against gay people.

If the discussion isn't about gun control, this will simply happen again and again until that discussion comes.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Japan has guns. So does Singapore.

That's not the point though. All these countries (Japan, AUS, UK. Canada etc etc) all have very restrictive gun laws. Multiple checks are done, almost most guns are used for target shooting or hunting.

Also you can't just get a gun that can hold magazines. Majority of guns are shotguns or rifles. Sure there are still guns, but it's nothing like that of the US.

Rifles are nearly impossible to get your hands on in the UK, and handguns are outright banned*

*They were blanket banned after we had a school shooting, and we haven't had one since.

 

[teruterubozu]

If the discussion will be about gun control we will have learned nothing from this terror attack. That would be the worst outcome in my view.

The key factor is HATE against gay people.

Can't we have both? Gun control and equal rights/education? Nobody is saying either-or.

 

[Darksol]

A seven year old Japanese student of mine asked me today: "Why do they (Americans) love guns more than each other?"

 

[teruterubozu]

A seven year old Japanese student of mine asked me today: "Why do they (Americans) love guns more than each other?"

What a troll.

 

[holygeesus]

Rifles are nearly impossible to get your hands on in the UK, and handguns are outright banned*

*They were blanket banned after we had a school shooting, and we haven't had one since.

Rifles are easy to get hold of if you can provide a legitimate reason for owning one, and have somewhere to shoot. More so in rural areas. The difference is, we don't make it *as* easy as it is in the USA and we simply don't have semi-automatic weapons or weapons with high capacity magazines. Not legally at least.

We have had a mass shooting since the handgun ban btw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

12 people killed with a shotgun and a .22 bolt-action rifle. He did a lot of damage but the key difference is you aren't going to go into a night club and shoot 100s of people with a bolt action rifle that holds 5 rounds or a shotgun. Both legally owned weapons.

If America truly wanted to make a difference, they would severely restrict high capacity magazines and ban semi-automatic weapons period. It will never happen of course, but it would make a difference for sure.

Edit - technically I don't think Cumbria counts as a mass shooting. More a spree killing. Either way.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Rifles are easy to get hold of if you can provide a legitimate reason for owning one, and have somewhere to shoot. More so in rural areas. The difference is, we don't make it *as* easy as it is in the USA and we simply don't have semi-automatic weapons or weapons with high capacity magazines. Not legally at least.

We have had a mass shooting since the handgun ban btw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings

12 people killed with a shotgun and a .22 bolt-action rifle. He did a lot of damage but the key difference is you aren't going to go into a night club and shoot 100s of people with a bolt action rifle that holds 5 rounds or a shotgun. Both legally owned weapons.

If America truly wanted to make a difference, they would severely restrict high capacity magazines and ban semi-automatic weapons period. It will never happen of course, but it would make a difference for sure.

America doesn't have Gazza to protect them, either.

But also, I think it's hard to dismiss the cultural difference - there's never been the same fetishisation of weapons in the UK or existential connection to them as there is in the US (in the sense that the "founding" story of the US, both in terms of wresting it from the native Americans and then the revolutionary war was the story of the country being delivered to them via guns) - even before Dunblane, you didn't have people wanting to go to gun ranges, hunting deer in Kingston Park etc. Well, Henry VIII did I guess, but that was a while ago now.

 

[Fusebox]

A seven year old Japanese student of mine asked me today: "Why do they (Americans) love guns more than each other?"

"That students name? Albert Einstein."

C'mon man...

 

[Darren870]

Rifles are nearly impossible to get your hands on in the UK, and handguns are outright banned*

*They were blanket banned after we had a school shooting, and we haven't had one since.

Isn't that what I said...?

There hardly are any legal firearms here when you consider the owners vs. population. From a separate article



Its getting even less these days with how expensive the upkeep is. Which is why hunters are dropping in numbers and young folks are not really picking up the slack due to those very same costs.

Which is a problem as due to this there are not as many people who are able to regulate the wildlife that causes issues for the environment. Following link below guy does a really good write up on it on top of having been an actual part of the community here in country. No idea if the guy is still around though. Regardless good write up once again.

http://yabanjinlifestyle.blogspot.jp/

That's still not 0 guns. Which is what I quoted.


The point being made is that these countries have strict gun control laws. You can still get guns in these countries but they are harder to get and not as powerful. Still, people can get guns for hunting and target shooting and then not use them to kill their fellow man.

 

[Darksol]

"That students name? Albert Einstein."

C'mon man...

?

I live in Japan. I teach at multiple schools in Tokyo. I have over 1000 students. This girl is half Japanese, half Filipino. I don't really give a shit whether or not you believe me -- I just found it sad and depressing that a child barely aware of America could have a more profound understanding of the issue than millions of Americans.

 

[teruterubozu]

?

I live in Japan. I teach at multiple schools in Tokyo. I have over 1000 students. This girl is half Japanese, half Filipino. I don't really give a shit whether or not you believe me -- I just found it sad and depressing that a child barely aware of America could have a more profound understanding of the issue than millions of Americans.

Please, plenty of loved ones died. You can teach her that as a teacher.

 

[Zaru]

That's an argument that only sounds sensible in theory.

Wanting to do something and being able to are different things, the latter usually depends on the tools you have available.

I can want to travel 500 miles today. Without a car or some other method of transportation I simply won't be able to.

I can want to drive a nail into a wall. Without a hammer I will have a real hard time to do so.

Limiting access to these tools, especially if bodily harm is their only purpose, might not change the intentions, but it very much changes the outcomes.

A nice example here are the faux terrorism cases that the FBI (I think?) uses to bust potential terrorists.
I don't like the practice and think it's not far from entrapment, but it shows there are quite a few people who would bomb / shoot up places in the USA, given the means to do so (which they thankfully don't have under normal circumstances)

 

[holygeesus]

America doesn't have Gazza to protect them, either.

lol

But also, I think it's hard to dismiss the cultural difference - there's never been the same fetishisation of weapons in the UK or existential connection to them as there is in the US (in the sense that the "founding" story of the US, both in terms of wresting it from the native Americans and then the revolutionary war was the story of the country being delivered to them via guns) - even before Dunblane, you didn't have people wanting to go to gun ranges, hunting deer in Kingston Park etc. Well, Henry VIII did I guess, but that was a while ago now.

That is all true, but if it was as easy to buy guns here, I'm sure many people would have one. There is still a degree of fascination with them. Growing up, my older cousin had lots of decommissioned guns (including an AK if memory suffices) for example. The legality side of obtaining them and ease of purchasing does count for a lot.

 

[mid83]

On a side note, mass surveillance is doing a bang up job preventing this sort of thing from happening isn't it? Both the Boston bombers and this guy were known to the FBI but they still failed to stop an attack. The whole defense for mass surveillance was for it to stop things like this. The only "terror plots" that FBI is stopping are the ones they create and fund themselves. Snowden was right in that recent Vice interview, they're collecting so much it renders them ineffective.

Again, some of you need to upgrade your posts per page!

Unfortunately we don't hear about the successes. I'm not for the mass surveillance that people like Rubio and Christie pushed in the primaries, but I also don't think they are sitting around doing nothing. I have to imagine there are planned or even near attacks stopped on a regular basis by our intelligence agencies.

With that said I do agree there is so much information and no where near the people available to go through and properly vet data coming in. We are bound to see thing fall through the cracks.

 

[CyclopsRock]

lol



That is all true, but if it was as easy to buy guns here, I'm sure many people would have one. There is still a degree of fascination with them. Growing up, my older cousin had lots of decommissioned guns (including an AK if memory suffices) for example. The legality side of obtaining them and ease of purchasing does count for a lot.

Oh, for sure. And I wouldn't want to swap our situation with the US's, at all. But I think there's only a certain amount that can be learned by saying "This country did that, it worked, try that" when the starting points are so different. Australia is closer, I think, but there's basically no country in the world with a gun culture like the US's so finding a working solution is going to be super hard (and, as I mentioned before, I think it'll require a total reinterpretation of the 2nd amendment - this is one of those situations where the UK's ad-hoc constitution is of significant benefit).

 

[entremet]

As more investigative elements come out, the authorities really fucked up with Omar Mateen.

So many warning signs.

From the NYT:

A former co-worker, Daniel Gilroy, said Mr. Mateen had talked often about killing people and had voiced hatred of gays, blacks, women and Jews.

Around the time of the massacre, Mr. Mateen called 911 and declared his allegiance to the Islamic State, the brutal group that has taken over parts of Syria, Iraq and Libya, Agent Hopper said. Other law enforcement officials said he called after beginning his assault.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/14/u...n=span-abc-region&WT.nav=span-abc-region&_r=0

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Oh, for sure. And I wouldn't want to swap our situation with the US's, at all. But I think there's only a certain amount that can be learned by saying "This country did that, it worked, try that" when the starting points are so different. Australia is closer, I think, but there's basically no country in the world with a gun culture like the US's so finding a working solution is going to be super hard (and, as I mentioned before, I think it'll require a total reinterpretation of the 2nd amendment - this is one of those situations where the UK's ad-hoc constitution is of significant benefit).

Eh, shooting as a sport is actually growing in the UK, there have been an increase in the number of firearms licenses granted apparently according to a friend who owns a shotgun. Also tons of people in the UK own airguns, which are entirely legal to buy and own without a license. Not to mention the popularity of sports like airsoft and paintball. I remember at university there was a target shooting club and there was a lot of interest from people. The culture of the UK definitely does still involve a strong interest in guns thanks to popular culture. Also there is a growing undercurrent of Europeans wanting US style gun laws because they want to defend themselves against immigrants or something stupid like that.

 

[Maedre]

It's sad to see people in the USA even discuss about the role and importance of weapons in their life. Its sad to se that they empower something like the NRA. Its sad to see that there will no change.

Many thousands more will die because of this obsessive and dumb weapon fetish.

When u read the news about people who killed themselves whith a gun while posing for a selfie you think how dumb they are, words like darwin award are flying throug the room, but in the end is this only a caricature of the actual US society.

Just get rid of them. There is no need to defend against gangsters if they have no weapons and there is no need to defend against your own government.

Just look at the rest of the developed world. its so sad to see a country like the US killing itsef.

 

[IISANDERII]

I don't agree with the notion that people who hate homosexuals have latent homosexual feelings themselves. I think its possible for straight people to hate gay people as good as anybody.

Possible, but not probable.

 

[Audioboxer]

?

I live in Japan. I teach at multiple schools in Tokyo. I have over 1000 students. This girl is half Japanese, half Filipino. I don't really give a shit whether or not you believe me -- I just found it sad and depressing that a child barely aware of America could have a more profound understanding of the issue than millions of Americans.

It's okay, I understand where you are coming from. It's sad, and at times unfounded, but outside of America if you mention the words gun killer, some people automatically say something happen in America again? Even here in the UK. America does have a bad public image with firearms.

 

[phisheep]

But also, I think it's hard to dismiss the cultural difference - there's never been the same fetishisation of weapons in the UK or existential connection to them as there is in the US (in the sense that the "founding" story of the US, both in terms of wresting it from the native Americans and then the revolutionary war was the story of the country being delivered to them via guns) - even before Dunblane, you didn't have people wanting to go to gun ranges, hunting deer in Kingston Park etc. Well, Henry VIII did I guess, but that was a while ago now.

Yep. I found it interesting yesterday reading that recent 9th circuit judgment in Peruta v San Diego

The right to bear arms in England has long been subject
to substantial regulation. In 1299, Edward I directed the
sheriffs of Safford and Shalop to prohibit anyone from “going
armed within the realm without the king’s special licence.”.
Five years later, in 1304, Edward I ordered the sheriff of
Leicester to enforce his prohibition on “any knight, esquire or
other person from . . . going armed in any way without the
king’s licence.”

That's a long long history of regulation.

 

[Maedre]

It's okay, I understand where you are coming from. It's sad, and at times unfounded, but outside of America if you mention the words gun killer, some people automatically say something happen in America again? Even here in the UK. America does have a bad public image with firearms.

Isn't it always? There arelike 70 murders per year with firearmes in germany. When i hear the words gun and killer the USA are the only thing i can think about. and i am right 99,99% of the time.

 

[FreedomFighter]

There are always bound to be cases that slip through the net unfortunately. There will be thousands of cases that are successfully prevented, but we are unlikely to hear about all of them.

Unfortunately we don't hear about the successes. I'm not for the mass surveillance that people like Rubio and Christie pushed in the primaries, but I also don't think they are sitting around doing nothing. I have to imagine there are planned or even near attacks stopped on a regular basis by our intelligence agencies.

With that said I do agree there is so much information and no where near the people available to go through and properly vet data coming in. We are bound to see thing fall through the cracks.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. The FBI loves to parade suspects of failed "terror plots" (most of which they create, mind you) all the time. Just search, you'll see them. They do the rounds on CNN, MSNBC, etc. But it seems to be the REAL terror plots are the ones they have trouble stopping.

 

[Audioboxer]

Isn't it always? There arelike 70 murders per year with firearmes in germany. When i hear the words gun and killer the USA are the only thing i can think about. and i am right 99,99% of the time.

Well, very often, but I don't want to speak for everyone and say always.

 

[Officerrob]

Official number as of right now appears to be 49 victims, 48 of which have been identified. The gunman was the 50th person to be killed

 

[Wanda/Wander]

this is just depressing

 

[Henkka]

Isn't it always? There arelike 70 murders per year with firearmes in germany. When i hear the words gun and killer the USA are the only thing i can think about. and i am right 99,99% of the time.

To be fair, there are countries with far, far more gun violence than the US. You just don't news from those countries so often.

 

[Maedre]

To be fair, there are countries with far, far more gun violence than the US. You just don't news from those countries so often.

like? Which first world country? we are talking about a developed first world country with 325 million population that is unable to stop their citizen from killing each other. But hey it's the land of the fr.... *Bäm* Headshot

This has nothing to do with fairness. Its just disgusting what happend there and the sadder part is that this is not the first or last massacre of this kind and scope in the US

 

[Dead Man]

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...ndo-shooting-some-malaysians-welcome-killings

Lots of people in my country (Malaysia) applauding the killings or calling it a US conspiracy.

True, but there are probably people we can quote from every country saying shitty things. Also in that article:

But amid the scorn, some Malaysians have come out to call for empathy and respect for the victims, saying the homophobic comments would only perpetuate the stereotype that Islam is a hateful religion.

A Facebook user by the name of Nazarul Ideham wrote:

“So this is how Muslims treat others? Gay ke kafir ke lesbian ke yahudi ke Islam ke masih tetap nyawa seorg manusia. Ini yg sepatutnya membezakan Islam dgn agama lain. Kalau kau sdri tunjuk perangai yahudi yg anggap bangsa/kaum lain jijik selain kau,ape beza kau dgn yahudi?”

(Is this how Muslims treat others? Gays or infidels or lesbians or Jews or Muslims ― it is still a human life. This (empathy) is what must differentiate Islam from others. If we ourselves behave like the Jews who deem other races disgusting or inferior, what is the difference between you and the Jews?”

Facebook user Rosman Nizar wrote:

“Membaca komen² di sini... Tak hairanlah Barat & sekutunya terus hidup dibelenggu Islamophobia & ingin terus-terusan Muslim-blaming. We're the reflections of our own selves. 'Religion of peace' will be another buried legend & bedtime story”.

(Reading the comments here..it is no surprise that the West and its allies will continue to be plagued by Islamophobia and Muslim-blaming. We're the reflections of our own selves. “Religion of peace” will be another buried legend & bedtime story).

Edit: Missed the anti semitism in the first comment. Damn.

 

[dc89]

It's all very upsetting.
Saddened and sickened to learn the man who sent the text messages was also killed.

 

[valkyre]

This is so damn sad and horrible...

RIP to all the victims and their families...

 

[Skux]

Actually, it's quite the opposite. The FBI loves to parade suspects of failed "terror plots" (most of which they create, mind you) all the time. Just search, you'll see them. They do the rounds on CNN, MSNBC, etc. But it seems to be the REAL terror plots are the ones they have trouble stopping.

Disregarding the first part of your statement that has no basis in reality, well of course the FBI failed to stop successful terror attacks. By definition that's why they're successful.

 

[depths20XX]

like? Which first world country? we are talking about a developed first world country with 325 million population that is unable to stop their citizen from killing each other. But hey it's the land of the fr.... *Bäm* Headshot

This has nothing to do with fairness. Its just disgusting what happend there and the sadder part is that this is not the first or last massacre of this kind and scope in the US

Why the umlaut in "bam"?

 

[mid83]

To be fair, there are countries with far, far more gun violence than the US. You just don't news from those countries so often.

I think most people compare US gun violence against other developed countries (Canada, Japan, Western Europe etc...). US gun violence per capita far exceeds other developed nations.

 

[Jintor]

It's okay, I understand where you are coming from. It's sad, and at times unfounded, but outside of America if you mention the words gun killer, some people automatically say something happen in America again? Even here in the UK. America does have a bad public image with firearms.

you know how people react when they hear 'another suicide bombing in syria/iraq/afghanistan' and they say oh that's terrible and then don't really think about it anymore? mass shootings in america are approaching that threshold of terrible-but-not-surprising news to me