He probably ran inside shooting anyone in sight. I don't think he cared about being caught with a gun at the door.
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Mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub [50 dead, 53 injured]
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He probably ran inside shooting anyone in sight. I don't think he cared about being caught with a gun at the door.
therealist
Member
Because they see it as a drastic reduction of liberty in exchange for dubious promises of a safer society. Even in Australia where the buy back program worked, there has not been definitive proof that the buyback was the reason for reduced gun crime. Gun crime was reducing before the ban got enacted, and merely continued reducing afterwards.
A Link to the Past
Banned
This is the hardest good-faith assumption of intent I've ever had to make, because right now it feels like I'm being trolled. No, the only way you could have taken my statement to be that I was referring to "anything" in the world is if you did not make an honest attempt to read my post. My posts are related to the US and the US only, and it's just a bit annoying that this is not the first time I've had to constantly reaffirm that.
You assert that Islam does not have power in the US because US is not permissive of extremist ideologies. Well, except the rule of Christian law that has sought to reduce black people, LGBT people, and women to second-class citizens anyway. The reason why Muslims are moving left is the same reason why all religions are moving left, and you better have some damn solid proof if you're going to assert otherwise.
There are approximately 3,000,000 Muslims in the United States, which represents less than .2% of the total Muslim population on earth.
The places that propagate the type of toxic Islamic thought that leads to these atrocities are increasingly not liberalizing, and in many cases seem to be getting worse. Let's not get started on European radicalization either because that seems to be painting a rather grim picture as well.
Hari Seldon
Member
This is what needs to happen. The government needs to fucking get rid of this unconstitutional "no fly list" bullshit and have a watch list with legit due process and proper notification for US citizens. That way you can then remove the right to buy a firearm without it being completely unconstitutional.
Instead of this talk we have Hilary going on about an "intelligence surge" of US citizens. Double down on that 1984 shit! That will surely work!
Instead of this talk we have Hilary going on about an "intelligence surge" of US citizens. Double down on that 1984 shit! That will surely work!
A Link to the Past
Banned
*sigh*
Is there a reason why you insist upon trying to force a discussion that at its core is about Muslims in the US first and foremost into being anything but that? Of course radicalism exists in the Middle East and has spread into Western Europe due to the refugee crisis, but my entire argument has been that the Middle East is the problem. You give Christianity to Iran, and Iran isn't going to be a much better place - it's just going to have a different book to use as a bludgeon.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
I don't know what to say. This is horrible and a scene we have seen too. many. times, but never quite this bad.
I don't see how you can trust the average citizen with a firearm given how many people have mental illness or anger management issues, I really don't.
The first panel is disingenuous though. He was a radical islamist. Born in the country or not, they're a problem and moving the goal posts doesn't change that.
I don't see how you can trust the average citizen with a firearm given how many people have mental illness or anger management issues, I really don't.
The first panel is disingenuous though. He was a radical islamist. Born in the country or not, they're a problem and moving the goal posts doesn't change that.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
Gun shop owner is giving a speech on CNN right now.
I find this hard to believe. Jesus and Mohammed were different people who had different teachings. That difference matters.
Rabbi_Vole
Banned
When was GAF anti interracial marriage?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Did that preacher at Ted Cruz's rally who advocated for the death of gays convert mid-speech to Islam? Were members of the Kill the Gays rally secret Muslims?
Seriously, it's downright embarrassing how much people are trying to ignore just how much of a religious issue this is and not just an Islamic issue. It must be easy to ignore history (or in this case, shit happening this very year).
EdibleKnife
Member
In the first panel, the guy is only taking umbrage with the fact that Islamists are entering the US in the first place, not that they're radicalizing. He assumes that any Islamist that enters the country must already be radical and thus are a danger.
I apologize regarding the first paragraph . I'll keep the convo only regarding Muslims in USA .
Obviously , in past all the horrific things you mention did happen . And to your point , all can be backed up by Old Testament or Christian scriptures. But you also now have to accept the fact that now we have a secular constitution that protects us from religious bigotry. So even a vile homophobic bigot video that I posted has no power to change but he still exist, his church still exist. Question is how many Christians are like him who believe bible is literal word to word God message. And you will found with your graph of 27-28% not support of lbgt ( most conservative)is about very close to link I posted of Christians who believe word of God is literal in USA .
And I would again will tell you that number will be way way higher among Muslims in USA . Mainly because the way scriptures are viewed
Laevateinn
Member
You should have seen the console wars that 50s GAF had. It was nuts.
Nah, not buying that argument. Look at the Coptic Christians in Egypt, or Orthodox Christians in Syria, or Christian minorities generally, or even non-Muslim minorities like the Yazidis. They're all just being mowed down. They aren't out there committing the kinds of atrocities we see out of ISIS.
It seems like Islam is losing its Reformation battle to extremists.
I think it's the complete opposite. When something like Sandy Hook can occur and nothing happens as a result, it's clear the majority of the country has just accepted rampant gun violence and mass shootings as part of the American way of life. No disrespect to the victims in Orlando or every other mass shooting of the last few years, but if the gun deaths of 20 elementary school aged children -- from white, affluent families, so the racial and class lines have been crossed too -- can't change minds, nothing can.
eBay Huckster
Member
i see someone wasn't here in the 50s
I believe the first panel is referring to Trump's plan to temporarily ban Muslims from entering the U.S. I'm sure his supporters believe that a ban would have stopped this. Pointing out that the shooter was born in the U.S. pretty much ends that.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Turns out that Ethiopia, a place where you can be imprisoned for 15 years, is no longer a country. It's fake after all!
Why is the gap in tolerance between Muslims in the western world and Muslims in Africa/Asia gargantuan? How can your explanation be anything but geographical?
We are only VERY recently out from underneath the thumb of religious tyranny in the US, a tyranny perpetuated by Christianity. Women are still having their reproductive rights violated by religious tyranny. Do you know what would happen if we lost the Supreme Court? LGBT rights would be dialed back because of religious tyranny, we'd be back decades in terms of progress. To me, that speaks of a nation that is only free from religious tyranny because enough people were able to stop it. Christians didn't stop on their own.
No, we're still here. We just don't participate in the giant echo chamber that are political discussions on this forum as they aren't productive. A good number of us are even queer, too! Shocking, right?
Wow, one preacher. You got me. Yeah, I know there are others, like those fuckers who went to Uganda.
But to cop a line from Sam Harris (Feel free to roll your eyes), saying Christianity and Islam are just as bad because they're both religions is like saying cricket and MMA are both just as violent because they're both sports. It's just that cricket's rules are currently interpreted non-violently! Nah. The texts are different, and that causes differences in societies that follow those texts.
around the world absolutely. Because it's absolute main tenant of Quran being unquestionable , unchangable , word to word of God .
People with Christian background seriously can't imagine power of that first fundamental belief .
That is why anytime needle moves a little it is forced back to default stage of 1400 old social society
It was latino night at the club.
A Link to the Past
Banned
That argument doesn't relate to the point I'm making at all. I'm asking for reason to believe that the radicalism of Islam in the Middle East is the product of Islam, or if it is a product of the Middle East. Judging by the fact that Muslims in the US are moving left and in the near future will have >50% of its members in support of same-sex marriage, I think that this should be something that is strongly established, not merely assumed.
We have to remember that Christians were forced to the left, it's not like they happily came along.
EdibleKnife
Member
The explanation is social and religious.
Western society doesn't allow for the imposition of religious diktat by the government because the archbishops or pope says something.
There is simply no power base in the West for Islam to creep into the social fabric and coerce the apparatus of the government. The West doesn't allow that kind of backward thinking to permeate society as a whole, although Europe seems to be losing ground as more and more immigrate to it.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The West doesn't allow that kind of backward thinking? Yes, as long as we assume that the West has only existed for the last 10 or so odd years, then I might be inclined to agree. We need to remember that people are alive who faced horrible discrimination for being gay in the US, and not because of Islam.
Not shocking, but certainly raise an eyebrow to how defensive you are about it by feeling the need to clarify you like guns and are gay. Frankly, that doesn't matter.
American Muslims are a tiny minority in the larger Islamic world, however. Muslim Americans are pretty chill from my experience, but the opposite holds true some that I've met in Germany, Turkey, and Afghanistan. It also doesn't help that some mainline Quaranic beliefs are horrificly anti-LGBT.
You don't have to convince about religious intolerance , I lived decade in Muslim democracy where if I go back could be punishable by death (apostasy) .
Because we're a minority that faces violence that far exceeds the general public? Is it really so odd that some of us would choose to arm ourselves?
Forward movement on LBGT rights in former colonies, European nations, and America have accrued in large in part due to the separation of Church and State.
With the way Islam is written, I don't know how modern people could do that off the top of my head, but it can and should be done. Honest question, is there a way you could see decoupling power from Islamic leaders and royal families? I'm think in the way the Protestant and Lutherans stood up against the Catholic Church.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Seriously, do I need to have an advisory to make sure that people don't reply to my posts by going off-topic? I am talking about Muslims in the US moving left. I have, SO many times, asked people to show me as a matter of fact that Islam created the problem in Afghanistan (for instance) as opposed to Afghanistan having many problems and Islam being used as a bludgeon in that country. Why are people replying to this if they can't answer this question?
They use participate all the time too before they were shut down and either given up or left the site.
Why are you broad brushing all the middle eastern /Asia//Africa Muslim as one identity , just like you are in USA. Imagine by using your graph if I did that to Christians . To fix the problem we need to know it
More than 50% of British Muslim want homosexuality banned (not a middle eastern country but a democrat) why only 38% Muslim in Canada believe in lbgt rights compare to 80% general public al?
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
The real issue that people don't seem to talk about is that gun bans have not proven to reduce the rate of gun crime. People just assume it does, because many places that banned them have always been relatively safe. Crime rates don't actually drop after the bans (and often go up)....
http://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/murder-and-homicide-rates-before-and-after-gun-bans/
It just hasn't proven affective.
That UK graph shows no such thing.
That spike in homicide in 2002/2003 is because 172 murders committed by the serial poisoner Dr Harold Shipman between 1975 and 1998 were only recorded as murders in 2003 following an enquiry after his eventual conviction. And IIRC 53 of those homicides were from a single incident of immigrants being trafficed in an unventilated truck.
Neither had anything to do with guns at all, and nothing to do with the handgun ban.
Source: UK Home Office Crime Statistics
Crime stats page 81 said:
A Link to the Past
Banned
For the same reason why most religions until very recently have had very poor showings as far as support goes for LGBT people. It is a religious problem, not specifically an Islamic problem, in the western world. The contention of a majority of Muslims being in opposition to same-sex marriage is a temporary one, and the population in the US and Canada that is against it is a shrinking one. Multiple states in the US had sodomy laws as late as 2003 for heaven's sake.
I acknowleged that Muslims in America are a fairly progressive bunch. I also pointed out that they're a very small number of Muslims worldwide. What "problem" might you be referring to? Islam was brought to the country more than 1000 years ago through Arabic conquests. Fuck, people like to talk about how Afghanistan was a bastion of social progress in the 60s when in reality the only place that occured was in Kabul and to a lesser extent Kandahar. Social conservatism has long been the norm there.
I know that. I own one. Mine has an adjustable stock, but still, it's got a fairly long barrel.
Also anybody got the source for this chart?
Somebody posted it but now I can't find it and I don't think the original poster had it as well. I want to post it elsewhere but would very much enjoy the link to where it's from so I have the citation.
A Link to the Past
Banned
None of this demonstrates that the source of the problem is Islam. None of this says "if Christianity was the majority religion of Afghanistan it would be better off for it." I guess the best way to say it would be to cite a very inappropriate, raunchy, offensive movie.
Essentially, Borat showed the arc of Kazakhstan - the characters are horrible anti-Semites, and by learning Christianity... they are still horrible anti-Semites, and yet believe themselves to be better people despite propagating hateful ideas.
In England Muslim community been there for very long time. More than 50% want it banned . We are not talking about equal rights. We are talking about banned .
I agree that it's a religious problem but to ignore facts all round that it is factually worse within Islamic community is putting your head in the ground
We have states holding emergency sessions of legislature to pass 'emergency' Christianity-enforcing bills.
And Muslims have various weights they give to the Quran and many factions. Some take it 100% literally, more take it less so. You know. Just like every other religion.
It was Latin night.
http://www.healthdata.org/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-us-rest-world
This was supposed to be it but the link is fucked.
Edit/ http://www.humanosphere.org/science/2016/06/visualizing-gun-deaths-comparing-u-s-rest-world/
AnathemicOne
Banned
Fine, whatever, this is now a debate on radical Islam, see you all in the next mass shooting thread and keeping on holding that flag.
A Link to the Past
Banned
The UK is a unique situation because Muslim immigration from the Middle East and Africa is significantly more common in the UK than it is in Canada and the US (hence why I didn't cite it). I would be curious to see figures for the US, Canada, and UK from the late 90s/early 2000s that deal with Christians' viewpoints on banning homosexuality.
None of this demonstrates that the source of the problem is Islam. None of this says "if Christianity was the majority religion of Afghanistan it would be better off for it." I guess the best way to say it would be to cite a very inappropriate, raunchy, offensive movie.
Essentially, Borat showed the arc of Kazakhstan - the characters are horrible anti-Semites, and by learning Christianity... they are still horrible anti-Semites, and yet believe themselves to be better people despite propagating hateful ideas.
Okay? Historically Christians have been horrible anti-semites, so I fail to see what point you're trying to illustrate. I'm not making excuses for Christians and Christianity right now.
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