Gator drags child into water near Disney's Grand Floridian

Status
Not open for further replies.
johnny956 said:
It's just strange to see a "no swimming" sign without any other kind of warning unless it's just trespassing. We have them in creeks in our city but they say "stay out of water, RAW SEWAGE!" Pretty clear. Just seems like Disney didn't want to scare people with a more descriptive warning. Plus seeing pictures of that beach it's pretty clear many wouldn't think twice about alligators being in those waters (not everyone is educated about it)
Click to expand...

I've heard this a lot and I really think this is what it comes down to. Here are some great shots that sum this up perfect

DSCN0350.jpg


This is a shot of royal pacific right across from universal. I have to imagine there are gators lurking in there at least there have been. There's literally a sign RIGHT there that says stay out of the water in the photo and yet here is a kid right at the edge in a swim suit, and another who appears to be coming out of the water. The rules aren't strict and I've personally seen this happen on numerous occasions.

there are also pictures of the exact beach with kids and families in the water. I actually dont want to post them because I feel some people would get weirded out given that there are kids closer up in swim suits in what not, but I'll leave this here.

http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/bay-lake-seven-seas-lagoon-swimming.15405/

This is a thread asking if it's ok to swim tehre. Multiple people mention it's gross, but safe. Some people say there could be gators, other say there's really no way gators would make it past disney. Plenty of people even locals were unaware, here's a direct quote.

considering that that area of the parks has now been open for 31 years, i seriously doubt that there are (or ever were) any alligators in that water. Just because this is florida does not mean that we have alligators walking la-de-da down the streets. Those bodies of water (one of them man-made) are surrounded by buildings and developments and its not like an alligator is just going to stroll through the polynesian to take a dip in seven seas lagoon. The reason for the ban on swimming is probably due to ameobic infestation of the water. It does happen sometime in central florida. A kid died last year (though not at disney) due to complications of exposure to ameobas (it was in orldando, but at some public lake). Waterskiing is still allowed while swimming is not probably because ameobas will usually reside in the silt (read muck) at the bottom of lakes. If you go swimming, you're walking on that muck and stirring it up, releasing amoebas into the water around you which can then get into your gi tract or other areas you'd rather not have them.
Click to expand...

This was prior to the incident, but remember even locals were unaware of the dangers.

edit-
213372bu said:
Of course I understand that,but you can't just kill a gator or two, humanely or not. Even if you theoretically kill off the entire area of all gators, they're guaranteed to come back through waterways and swamp land, and come into the perimeters, like where the Resort Hotels/Parks are.

You can kill the gators off, but at the end of the day, it's not going to be effective.

Some urban areas have this issue, it's more than an uphill battle for a company that consist mainly of swamp land and water ways.
Click to expand...

It's not about eliminating them altogether, it's about killing them when necessary. Here it was necessary.
 
Hazmat said:
Alligators, particularly these alligators, are a deadly pest. You kill rats that infest your property and you kill alligators that infest your property too. Gotta love the internet giving us someone who feels bad for the alligators that live at Disney, one of whom killed a kid last night.
Click to expand...

I mean, they're native to Florida. It is their natural environment and it's being encroached on by development. Not sure how that makes them a pest.
 
What's up with all the smarty pants regarding the signs?

Just from the discussion with several people it should be obvious that "no swimming" is not a clear sign for many people not to get close to water or they might get dragged to death by a gator.

Yeah, some of you might know better but it seems like people should be more informed about that.
 
AkumaNiko said:
you are missing the point. there was a no swimming sign. people are trying not to victim blame by blaming the no swimming sign. Swimming does not always mean the actual motion of swimming, a 2 foot toddler in a foot of water wadding around some people call swimming.

when a no swimming sign is present, maybe instead of treating it as a bendible guideline, you should treat it as the warning sign as it should be.
Click to expand...
Ok look, you are correct the sign in fact said "no swimming". The kid was dragged into the water at night, it's entirely possible if you see a "no swimming" sign and its night time that maybe that sign is there because there's no lifeguards at that time (if there even are any there) or simply because they don't want people going into the lagoon at night. So yes, they didn't follow what the sign said.

The sign is there because there's alligators in the water. I'd bet my life that a majority of people wouldnt go or want to bring there kids to Disney World if there were signs plastered in every possible alligator infested area that said "No swimming, Alligators in the area". And Disney is aware of this, which is why the fucking sign doesn't say it.

They might've not followed what the sign said, at the same time the sign didn't properly explain how dangerous the situation could be if you went in or near the water. They weren't natives of Florida, not everyone is aware of how many alligators are there, and I'm sure most tourists when planning a trip to Disney World don't do research on Florida's alligator population. If you want to say the father is partially to blame then fine, I don't care. There's no way the majority of the blame doesn't fall on Disney, especially when there was a fucking movie night on the beach and an alligator could've easily snatched a kid who wasn't in the water.
 
msdstc said:
It's not about eliminating them altogether, it's about killing them when necessary. Here it was necessary.
Click to expand...

So its necessary to kill them because we've developed on their home where they've been prior to Florida even becoming a state (and much much much longer).

Why stop at gators then? Should we kill sharks too because we swim in their waters? What about bears? I mean they just kinda wander into our properties, are they a pest?

Where is the line drawn?
 
Big Baybee said:
I mean, the reaction to this story versus the gorilla story has been quite different. But yea, it's insensitive.
Click to expand...

I just don't see the comparison at all though. One is a clearly dangerous enclosure with a visible threat, versus a white sandy beach that welcomes you to come hang out.

edit-
Darren870 said:
So its necessary to kill them because we've developed on their home where they've been prior to Florida even becoming a state (and much much much longer).

Why stop at gators then? Should we kill sharks too because we swim in their waters? What about bears? I mean they just kinda wander into our properties, are they a pest?

Where is the line drawn?
Click to expand...


holy shit you are getting so wrapped up on that, if it's necessary yes we will kill certain animals especially like alligators which there is a population problem. Do you kill ants, wasps, termites? Pretty sure you uprooted quite a few nests in your life.
 
msdstc said:
I've heard this a lot and I really think this is what it comes down to. Here are some great shots that sum this up perfect

DSCN0350.jpg
Click to expand...
that's one of the worst looking "beaches" i've ever seen. it's like they found a random lake and threw some sand around the edges.
 
msdstc said:
I just don't see the comparison at all though. One is a clearly dangerous enclosure with a visible threat, versus a white sandy beach that welcomes you to come hang out.
Click to expand...
If you see a sign that says no swimming, would you still think getting in the water would be acceptable? I mean, they were calling the zoo parent negligent because her kid fell through a shitty barrier, and these parents were ignoring posted signs and just hanging out in the water. Of course you don't expect an alligator to kill your child, but just follow what the signs say.
 
msdstc said:
I just don't see the comparison at all though. One is a clearly dangerous enclosure with a visible threat, versus a white sandy beach that welcomes you to come hang out.

edit-



holy shit you are getting so wrapped up on that, if it's necessary yes we will kill certain animals especially like alligators which there is a population problem. Do you kill ants, wasps, termites? Pretty sure you uprooted quite a few nests in your life.
Click to expand...

Comments like yours are exactly how culling starts. They impose on our lifestyle so lets kill them off!

*sigh*

----

The signs should say why there is no swimming. I've seen signs before and they usually say why. In Japan and Australia its because of Jelly Fish. Also seen because of sharks, and rip tides.
 
Big Baybee said:
If you see a sign that says no swimming, would you still think getting in the water would be acceptable? I mean, they were calling the zoo parent negligent because her kid fell through a shitty barrier, and these parents were ignoring posted signs and just hanging out in the water. Of course you don't expect an alligator to kill your child, but just follow what the signs say.
Click to expand...
Clearly many people do, so I don't understand why this keeps being asked. That you're even able to sit here and have a back and forth discussion over the intent of the sign is proof the sign is not specific enough and is failing to properly relay the intended warning. Besides, a gator could grab someone walking near the water without any contact with it whatsoever. That possibility seems to make the discussion moot, no?
 
Sifl said:
Ok look, you are correct the sign in fact said "no swimming". The kid was dragged into the water at night, it's entirely possible if you see a "no swimming" sign and its night time that maybe that sign is there because there's no lifeguards at that time (if there even are any there) or simply because they don't want people going into the lagoon at night. So yes, they didn't follow what the sign said.

The sign is there because there's alligators in the water. I'd bet my life that a majority of people wouldnt go or want to bring there kids to Disney World if there were signs plastered in every possible alligator infested area that said "No swimming, Alligators in the area". And Disney is aware of this, which is why the fucking sign doesn't say it.

They might've not followed what the sign said, at the same time the sign didn't properly explain how dangerous the situation could be if you went in or near the water. They weren't natives of Florida, not everyone is aware of how many alligators are there, and I'm sure most tourists when planning a trip to Disney World don't do research on Florida's alligator population. If you want to say the father is partially to blame then fine, I don't care. There's no way the majority of the blame doesn't fall on Disney, especially when there was a fucking movie night on the beach and an alligator could've easily snatched a kid who wasn't in the water.
Click to expand...

no, the majority of the blame should not fall on ANYONE. not the parents, not disney. You don't sue the state for a deer running out in front of your car wrecking it do you? This was a freak accident that cost a child their life and a family grief.

A little lesson on wildlife and disney.

There are laws stating that disney HAS to dedicate a certain % of their land to wild life preservation and not messing with the eco system. The Seven seas lagoon (man made) Is connected to bay lake (natural) so its natural that the seven seas lagoon has some local wildlife. Alligators are a problem in Florida, they are like rats, they are a pest and hard to get rid of and they are EVERYWHERE.

Now, back to the resort. These movie nights happen ALL the time. 4-5 times a week. The grand floridian has been doing it for decades and this is the first time a gator has attacked anyone there. Like i said, this was nobodys fault that the gator attacked, not the parents that let their kid wade in water that had signs advising against it at 9:30 at night and not disney for not dumbing it down for people by putting a sign up that people would still ignore.


fun fact, pools at the resorts are open til 11pm in the spring, summer and fall months.


Aaronology said:
Clearly many people do, so I don't understand why this keeps being asked. That you're even able to sit here and have a back and forth discussion over the intent of the sign is proof the sign is not specific enough and is failing to properly relay the intended warning. Besides, a gator could grab someone walking near the water without any contact with it whatsoever. That possibility seems to make the discussion moot, no?
Click to expand...

you wanna know why theres a back and forth discussion? because people are afraid to victim blame. They want to place the blame somewhere and placing the blame on the parents that just lost a child seems to be in poor taste, so when someone brings up the sign, someone takes up the white knight mantle to defend parents that will never see the post in a thread and website they probably dont know exists.
 
As a father of two little ones I can't even imagine.......


Regarding whether Disney knew, I believe they did.

Stay at the Polynesian sometime and check out what workers do on the beach during the early morning hours......
 
AkumaNiko said:
no, the majority of the blame should not fall on ANYONE. not the parents, not disney. You don't sue the state for a deer running out in front of your car wrecking it do you? This was a freak accident that cost a child their life and a family grief.

A little lesson on wildlife and disney.

There are laws stating that disney HAS to dedicate a certain % of their land to wild life preservation and not messing with the eco system. The Seven seas lagoon (man made) Is connected to bay lake (natural) so its natural that the seven seas lagoon has some local wildlife. Alligators are a problem in Florida, they are like rats, they are a pest and hard to get rid of and they are EVERYWHERE.

Now, back to the resort. These movie nights happen ALL the time. 4-5 times a week. The grand floridian has been doing it for decades and this is the first time a gator has attacked anyone there. Like i said, this was nobodys fault that the gator attacked, not the parents that let their kid wade in water that had signs advising against it at 9:30 at night and not disney for not dumbing it down for people by putting a sign up that people would still ignore.


fun fact, pools at the resorts are open til 11pm in the spring, summer and fall months.




you wanna know why theres a back and forth discussion? because people are afraid to victim blame. They want to place the blame somewhere and placing the blame on the parents that just lost a child seems to be in poor taste, so when someone brings up the sign, someone takes up the white knight mantle to defend parents that will never see the post in a thread and website they probably dont know exists.
Click to expand...



What would Disney be dumbing down exactly? Are you trying to say that guests at Disney World should know that the man made lakes have alligators?

How many people have drowned or have been killed by the water in those lakes over the years? Maybe the no swimming signs are not needed either. Just let the guests roam free since you think the signs get ignored anyways.
 
Darren870 said:
Comments like yours are exactly how culling starts. They impose on our lifestyle so lets kill them off!
Click to expand...

In this case "impose on our lifestyle" means "eat two year olds." They're a danger to humans and frankly we should be putting our safety above theirs. I love animals but I'd rather see a thousand gators die than another child harmed.
 
Big Baybee said:
If you see a sign that says no swimming, would you still think getting in the water would be acceptable? I mean, they were calling the zoo parent negligent because her kid fell through a shitty barrier, and these parents were ignoring posted signs and just hanging out in the water. Of course you don't expect an alligator to kill your child, but just follow what the signs say.
Click to expand...

I'm saying if you see a beach you assume its safe and may miss the sign... if you see a gorilla enclosure you know not to let something fall in.
 
msdstc said:
I'm saying if you see a beach you assume its safe and may miss the sign... if you see a gorilla enclosure you know not to let something fall in.
Click to expand...

As someone who has been to Disney often, and as recently as a few weeks ago, I think you'd have to be going out of your way to "miss" these signs. It's ok to say that they did what they wanted to do, despite the signage in the area. I think Disney should add some kind of alligator warning now. Just like with the zoo, Disney was lucky this hadn't happened before. Time to up the safety measures.
 
3N16MA said:
What would Disney be dumbing down exactly? Are you trying to say that guests at Disney World should know that the man made lakes have alligators?

How many people have drowned or have been killed by the water in those lakes over the years? Maybe the no swimming signs are not needed either. Just let the guests roam free since you think the signs get ignored anyways.
Click to expand...

why, so disney can be liable for idiots? for 30+ years a no swimming sign has been good enough to keep people from being attacked by gators. You think those gators just got there?
 
Just wanted to add that I live in the area that the family was from and there's been a lot of coverage of this incident. The family's church is collecting donations for the family and it seems like the community is in general coming together for the family.
 
AkumaNiko said:
why, so disney can be liable for idiots? for 30+ years a no swimming sign has been good enough to keep people from being attacked by gators. You think those gators just got there?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure the gators have always been there and Disney has known about it since the very beginning. I'm also sure that you do not need to be swimming to be attacked by a gator.

Seems like this kid was not swimming.

If I'm the parent I do not allow my 2 year old to be walking in water near a lake at 9 PM. If I'm running Disney I would post warning signs that are more detailed than simply "no swimming."
 
3N16MA said:
I'm pretty sure the gators have always been there and Disney has known about it since the very beginning. I'm also sure that you do not need to be swimming to be attacked by a gator.

Seems like this kid was not swimming.

If I'm the parent I do not allow my 2 year old to be walking in water near a lake at 9 PM. If I'm running Disney I would post warning signs that are more detailed than simply "no swimming."
Click to expand...

agreed, i think a signage update is needed. If disney does not want to "ruin the magic"

a simple "Do not enter water" should be posted. pretty simple
 
this is just sad all the way around, I could care less about the gators, kill them all. I was at this park last month, its a vacation, probably first time for the two year old, its supposed to be happy. Its just sad. I have a three y/o almost 4, and hes my life, I can't imagine the pain for the 2 y/o or the parents. Parents did nothing wrong, you don't expect your kid to be attack by gators at Disney World. Its supposed to be a safe vacation to meet Mickey Mouse. We had a great time. but it should always be a great time. Disney failed them.
 
ARascallyWizard said:
In this case "impose on our lifestyle" means "eat two year olds." They're a danger to humans and frankly we should be putting our safety above theirs. I love animals but I'd rather see a thousand gators die than another child harmed.
Click to expand...

You basically are saying kill all animals that are a danger to humans.
 
Big Baybee said:
As someone who has been to Disney often, and as recently as a few weeks ago, I think you'd have to be going out of your way to "miss" these signs. It's ok to say that they did what they wanted to do, despite the signage in the area. I think Disney should add some kind of alligator warning now. Just like with the zoo, Disney was lucky this hadn't happened before. Time to up the safety measures.
Click to expand...

I frequent the orlando area as mentioned above I have family there and again I disagree with what you're saying. Being familiar with the area now, I understand the potential danger and have seen the signs, but my first time at the royal pacific I saw the beach with the volleyball net and chairs, I just assumed people would swim out there. I was looking around the area saw the sign and thought "well this is weird, it's setup like it encourages swimming, but they don't want you in there".

The "beach" theme clearly draws people into the idea of putting their feet in the water or swimming. The gorilla enclosure incident is not a common thing whatsoever, where swimming in these waters IS a common thing. As I posted in the picture, and an entire thread of people talking about all the swimming that goes on in there and even people (locals at that) saying there were no gators in those waters. Thousands of people have been in those waters with no attacks. gator attacks on humans are exceptionally rare, even in gator infested areas.

So on one hand, you have a kid a few inches deep in water, something that's done daily and has been done for years by thousands of people with no issues, versus the first time ever a kid wound up in a gorilla enclosure. It's very easy to see the difference.
 
msdstc said:
I frequent the orlando area as mentioned above I have family there and again I disagree with what you're saying. Being familiar with the area now, I understand the potential danger and have seen the signs, but my first time at the royal pacific I saw the beach with the volleyball net and chairs, I just assumed people would swim out there. I was looking around the area saw the sign and thought "well this is weird, it's setup like it encourages swimming, but they don't want you in there".

The "beach" theme clearly draws people into the idea of putting their feet in the water or swimming. The gorilla enclosure incident is not a common thing whatsoever, where swimming in these waters IS a common thing. As I posted in the picture, and an entire thread of people talking about all the swimming that goes on in there and even people (locals at that) saying there were no gators in those waters. Thousands of people have been in those waters with no attacks. gator attacks on humans are exceptionally rare, even in gator infested areas.

So on one hand, you have a kid a few inches deep in water, something that's done daily and has been done for years by thousands of people with no issues, versus the first time ever a kid wound up in a gorilla enclosure. It's very easy to see the difference.
Click to expand...

Why do you keep trying to justify ignoring the no swimming signs just because it looks safe? I just don't get this mentality. No swimming means stay out of the fucking water in nice language lol. I've been to this resort and seen these beaches, never felt compelled to get in the water despite the signs just because it looks pretty. And gators honestly never crossed my mind, as much as I've been to Disney. I guess I'm just a square who follows directions. Also, I'm sure witness said that they were actually in the water, correct? Not just by a few inches.
 
Big Baybee said:
Why do you keep trying to justify ignoring the no swimming signs just because it looks safe? I just don't get this mentality. No swimming means stay out of the fucking water in nice language lol. I've been to this resort and seen these beaches, never felt compelled to get in the water despite the signs just because it looks pretty. And gators honestly never crossed my mind, as much as I've been to Disney. I guess I'm just a square who follows directions. Also, I'm sure witness said that they were actually in the water, correct? Not just by a few inches.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it justifies it I'm saying, despite the signs most people assumed it was ok. That much is clear from what I dug up in mere seconds by searching conversations prior to this incident. On top of that a very basic google search brought up photos of children playing in that water.

So again the very basic point is that a kid playing in water that thousands of people play in, is in no way directly comparable to a child ending up in a gorilla enclosure. I can't pretend to know all the details of the gorilla scenario, but speaking at face value here, there is a clear difference between the two.
 
Big Baybee said:
Why do you keep trying to justify ignoring the no swimming signs just because it looks safe? I just don't get this mentality. No swimming means stay out of the fucking water in nice language lol. I've been to this resort and seen these beaches, never felt compelled to get in the water despite the signs just because it looks pretty. And gators honestly never crossed my mind, as much as I've been to Disney. I guess I'm just a square who follows directions. Also, I'm sure witness said that they were actually in the water, correct? Not just by a few inches.
Click to expand...

I think this is mostly a moot point here, because this probably still would have happened, even if the child was out of the water, as long as they were near the shoreline. So, I don't think breaking his particular rule, caused this tragedy.

But having said that, I agree that a "no swimming" sign means stay out of the water. I don't think it makes sense to break clearly posted rules, because you think they're dumb, and then complain later if it turns out there was a really good reason for the rule you didn't consider. Just follow the rule.
 
Keri said:
I think this is mostly a moot point here, because this probably still would have happened, even if the child was out of the water, as long as they were near the shoreline. So, I don't think breaking his particular rule, caused this tragedy.

But having said that, I agree that a "no swimming" sign means stay out of the water. I don't think it makes sense to break clearly posted rules, because you think they're dumb, and then complain later if it turns out there was a really good reason for the rule you didn't consider. Just follow the rule.
Click to expand...

nobody is saying the rule is dumb at all, I'm saying it can be easily missed given how small the sign was, and just being assuming hey look at this sandy beach let's dip our feet. As you mentioned the point is ridiculous, because there were no rules against walking very close to the water, and yet that presented just as much danger as splashing around in a few inches of water.
 
Big Baybee said:
Why do you keep trying to justify ignoring the no swimming signs just because it looks safe? I just don't get this mentality. No swimming means stay out of the fucking water in nice language lol. I've been to this resort and seen these beaches, never felt compelled to get in the water despite the signs just because it looks pretty. And gators honestly never crossed my mind, as much as I've been to Disney. I guess I'm just a square who follows directions. Also, I'm sure witness said that they were actually in the water, correct? Not just by a few inches.
Click to expand...
its a two yearold, it will be inches. Not like that matters. Gators shouldnt be on disney property, kill them all.
 
msdstc said:
nobody is saying the rule is dumb at all, I'm saying it can be easily missed given how small the sign was, and just being assuming hey look at this sandy beach let's dip our feet. As you mentioned the point is ridiculous, because there were no rules against walking very close to the water, and yet that presented just as much danger as splashing around in a few inches of water.
Click to expand...

Yeah, missing the rule is different than deliberately breaking it, that's true. Again, I do think it's all a moot point here, but I'm a total square rule follower (like Big Baybee), so I relate to his reaction. I mean, several have suggested that the signs should be updated to indicate the risk of alligators (which I agree with), but some have implied this is necessary, so people take the signs seriously. I just think they should take them seriously, regardless.

I think the signs need to be updated, not to actually keep people out of the water, but to warn them of the new danger on the shoreline.
 
This story made me cry 3 times today. I just keep imagining the parents fear. The kids fear. The pain. My daughter is only 6 months old, but man I would literally not be able to come back from this if it happened to me.

I know people just come here to fight about shit, but I was honestly shocked to click this thread and see people found a way to turn it into a fight.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

What local wildlife live near you?
2
59
521
Fbh replied
Jet collides with helicopter near D.C.
4 5 6 7 8
377
19K
Days like these... replied
"Politics is bad for business" - Disney's Bob Iger
2
83
5K
Pejo replied
Florida Gators 2025 national champions in Basketball.
19
657
HoodWinked replied
Hurricane Milton - Stay safe Floridians
2 3 4
165
11K
DeepEnigma replied
Top Bottom