Gator drags child into water near Disney's Grand Floridian

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it seems no matter how hard i try, common sense is absent in this thread, so i'll go ahead and let everyone read this:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/15/opinions/hotels-may-avoid-liability-alligator-attack-danny-cevallos/

Basically says everything i have been posting.

The ferae naturae doctrine really only says that a resort or other landowner is not automatically liable for what wild animals on the property may do, but only so long as the animal is native, and the landowner didn't keep the animal as a hotel pet.
...

Like i said, Flordia law protects against situations like this. Is it floridas job to protect its citizens? Should there be a warning sign in every every pond warning of gators, snakes, spiders, bobcats ect? The Seven Seas Lagoon is protected by wildlife and nature preservation laws that will slam anyone trying to sue for an act of nature, use common sense and dont ignore signs.
Wait, did you just lead off with a talk about common sense focused on legal doctrine? Old legal doctrine?

The ferae naturae doctrine and common sense?

My head hurts. That was funny. I thought the definition of common sense was common sense but alas.

My dudes about to pull out 18 century British parliamentary procedure, like, 'it's common sense, we don't have a quorum'
😭
 
I'll re-quote and highlight the important parts

"The law of Florida does not require the owner or possessor of land to anticipate the presence of OR to guard an invitee or trespasser against harm from wild animals unless one of two conditions exists: the animal has been reduced to possession, or the animal is not indigenous to the locality but has been introduced onto the premises. Appellees had not reduced the alligator to possession before the attack, and since alligators are indigenous to Florida, appellees were not required to have the alligator under dominion and control."

It does not matter if disney knew there were gators there, 1/3 of disney world is dedicated to wild life preservation, gators are indigenous to florida. They are to be expected.

We can argue law all day long, All im saying is, if the family decided to sue instead of accept disney's settlement, they would crash and burn. The law heavily favors tourisim, not the tourist.

I'm pretty familiar with this area of the law. It does matter if Disney knew there were alligators present - that's one of the two key facts in which the entire case will rest, if legal action is brought against Disney. Premises liability is first-year Torts subject matter, and there is established case law on alligator attacks in Florida that goes back decades.

Again, I'll reiterate that you're selectively quoting the Palumbo case. It's a multi-pronged legal analysis, and you're only taking into consideration the first prong with your quote. Here is an important piece of the legal analysis you are leaving out:
In regard to the trial court's application of the sovereign immunity defense, we observe that the Supreme Court of Florida, in City of St. Petersburg v. Collom, 419 So.2d 1082 (Fla. 1982), held that when a governmental entity creates a known dangerous condition, which is not readily apparent to persons who could be injured by the condition, an operational duty arises to warn or protect the public from the known danger. Here, appellees clearly did not create the dangerous condition, i.e., the presence of the alligator, and we agree with the trial court that liability against appellees may not be predicated upon their decision, clearly discretionary and judgmental, of whether to fence, block or otherwise prevent alligators from moving from Paynes Prairie State Park to adjoining Lake Wauberg, if indeed it would have been possible to do so. Such preventive measures as appellant's allegations envision would be discretionary under the holding of Commercial Carrier Corp. v. Indian River County, 371 So.2d 1010 (Fla. 1979), thereby affording protection to appellees under the doctrine of sovereign immunity. It is clear, however, that once the university undertook to open and operate the recreational facility (with or without the assistance of the Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission), it would be held to the same standards of care as are applied to private persons operating similar facilities. Trianon Park Condominium Association, Inc. v. City of Hialeah, 468 So.2d 912 (Fla. 1985).

This turns the case to a premises-liability analysis, as the defendant in the Palumbo case had preexisting knowledge of the regular presence of alligators on the property, and it was acting as an invitor. Thus, the landowner-invitor had the following duty of care under Florida law:
  1. a duty to use reasonable care in maintaining the property in a reasonably safe condition,
  2. a duty to warn of latent or concealed dangers which: a) should be known to the owner, and b) are unknown to the invitee, and c) cannot be discovered through the exercise of due care.
As I mentioned previously, any legal suit is going to hinge on two key facts, one of which is if Disney knew of the presence of alligators in the waters around the hotels. This shifts the analysis away from the ferae naturae doctrine and to premises liability/resort liability law. If you want a prime example of how a family visiting Florida from Nebraska may not appreciate the risk of alligators being present in a man-made beach on a Disney resort, you can look no further than this very thread wherein a multitude of posters have expressed ignorance and surprise of the types of waters alligators may be present within in Florida. If Disney had knowledge of alligators being present, as certain reports have claimed with the park being notified of hotel guests feeding alligators, Disney had a duty of care to warn invitees of their presence.

The second key fact if a case is brought to trail will be, was the "No Swimming" sign adequate to fulfill Disney's duty of care to warn of alligators? Considering the lack of specificity of the sign with respect to the danger of an alligator attack, and because the boy was wading in shallow water just off shore, as opposed to swimming per se, I don't foresee a finder of fact determining the boy's "swimming" was the sole proximate cause of his death.

All the above is only analyzing a negligence/recklessness claim of action against Disney. It's not even taking into consideration a wrongful death action, which the boy's parents could also bring, and which would be an entirely different legal analysis.

In practice, all the above is going to be moot anyway, as there is a high likelihood that Disney and the parents will settle out of court. It would behoove Disney not to have such a case being continuously brought up in the media during tourist season, and it certainly risks reputational damage if it is painted as a big corporation zealously embroiling itself in a legal battle against a family of tourists whose toddler was chomped by an alligator right in front of their eyes.
 
Let's say the kid and his father weren't wading in the water, but were instead walking on the beach near the water. When have crocs and alligators not been able to lunge out and grab prey that were near the water? Having signs that say "don't swim/don't enter the water" means shit all when we're talking about a predator that can snatch animals from the water's edge, and can come on land.
 
I'm pretty familiar with this area of the law. It does matter if Disney knew there were alligators present - that's one of the two key facts in which the entire case will rest, if legal action is brought against Disney. Premises liability is first-year Torts subject matter, and there is established case law on alligator attacks in Florida that goes back decades.

Again, I'll reiterate that you're selectively quoting the Palumbo case. It's a multi-pronged legal analysis, and you're only taking into consideration the first prong with your quote. Here is an important piece of the legal analysis you are leaving out:


This turns the case to a premises-liability analysis, as the defendant in the Palumbo case had preexisting knowledge of the regular presence of alligators on the property, and it was acting as an invitor. Thus, the landowner-invitor had the following duty of care under Florida law:
  1. a duty to use reasonable care in maintaining the property in a reasonably safe condition,
  2. a duty to warn of latent or concealed dangers which: a) should be known to the owner, and b) are unknown to the invitee, and c) cannot be discovered through the exercise of due care.
As I mentioned previously, any legal suit is going to hinge on two key facts, one of which is if Disney knew of the presence of alligators in the waters around the hotels. This shifts the analysis away from the ferae naturae doctrine and to premises liability/resort liability law. If you want a prime example of how a family visiting Florida from Nebraska may not appreciate the risk of alligators being present in a man-made beach on a Disney resort, you can look no further than this very thread wherein a multitude of posters have expressed ignorance and surprise of the types of waters alligators may be present within in Florida. If Disney had knowledge of alligators being present, as certain reports have claimed with the park being notified of hotel guests feeding alligators, Disney had a duty of care to warn invitees of their presence.

The second key fact if a case is brought to trail will be, was the "No Swimming" sign adequate to fulfill Disney's duty of care to warn of alligators? Considering the lack of specificity of the sign with respect to the danger of an alligator attack, and because the boy was wading in shallow water just off shore, as opposed to swimming per se, I don't foresee a finder of fact determining the boy's "swimming" was the sole proximate cause of his death.

All the above is only analyzing a negligence/recklessness claim of action against Disney. It's not even taking into consideration a wrongful death action, which the boy's parents could also bring, and which would be an entirely different legal analysis.

In practice, all the above is going to be moot anyway, as there is a high likelihood that Disney and the parents will settle out of court. It would behoove Disney not to have such a case being continuously brought up in the media during tourist season, and it certainly risks reputational damage if it is painted as a big corporation zealously embroiling itself in a legal battle against a family of tourists whose toddler was chomped by an alligator right in front of their eyes.

I get what you're saying, but interpretation of the law can be skewed when argued from the families 100k a year lawyer vs disneys 100mil lawyers

But you're right, its moot as dinsey will settle, but i can guarentee that 95% of the guests at the parks right now neither care or know what happened, the human race is full of assholes
 
Let's say the kid and his father weren't wading in the water, but were instead walking on the beach near the water. When have crocs and alligators not been able to lunge out and grab prey that were near the water? Having signs that say "don't swim/don't enter the water" means shit all when we're talking about a predator that can snatch animals from the water's edge, and can come on land.

You may argue that would be an accident much more difficult to happen, since probably the noise made by the kid when wading is that attracted the animal.

Anyway it was a very sad accident. Things could and will be improved, I feel for the family but thingd will go on. I don't see the reason to blame anyone, even Disney. Nothing will bring the kid back, and certainly Disney learned a lesson.
 
I get what you're saying, but interpretation of the law can be skewed when argued from the families 100k a year lawyer vs disneys 100mil lawyers

But you're right, its moot as dinsey will settle, but i can guarentee that 95% of the guests at the parks right now neither care or know what happened, the human race is full of assholes

I'm not sure attending the park and not "caring" makes you an asshole. I mean it's sad, you ponder on it for a bit at how awful it is, maybe reflect on it and be grateful for what you have, but then you move on with your life because it doesn't effect you personally. If Disney was responsible somehow then the media will pick it up and there will be outrage.

It is awful what happened. I can't even imagine what this family is going through. As bad as it may sound though, horrible things happen to people everyday. You'd have to spend all day thinking about every life lost and it would drive you insane.
 
It's Disney's fault.

the created a fake beach next to a man lagoon connect by canals to other bodies of natural fresh water.

Disney's signage of no swimming has no mention of Alligators in them.

Disney didn't have security personnel monitoring the patrons' movements

This is all on Disney
 
I'll re-quote and highlight the important parts

"The law of Florida does not require the owner or possessor of land to anticipate the presence of OR to guard an invitee or trespasser against harm from wild animals unless one of two conditions exists: the animal has been reduced to possession, or the animal is not indigenous to the locality but has been introduced onto the premises. Appellees had not reduced the alligator to possession before the attack, and since alligators are indigenous to Florida, appellees were not required to have the alligator under dominion and control."

It does not matter if disney knew there were gators there, 1/3 of disney world is dedicated to wild life preservation, gators are indigenous to florida. They are to be expected.

We can argue law all day long, All im saying is, if the family decided to sue instead of accept disney's settlement, they would crash and burn. The law heavily favors tourisim, not the tourist.

Disney can throw Florida law at the court all they want, it comes down to convincing jurors whether they were negligent or not, and you better believe Disney will surely lose this case.
 
It's Disney's fault.

the created a fake beach next to a man lagoon connect by canals to other bodies of natural fresh water.

Disney's signage of no swimming has no mention of Alligators in them.

Disney didn't have security personnel monitoring the patrons' movements

This is all on Disney

the lagoon was built over a wild life preservation, animals were there before it was built and florida made them keep them there. They have to move any gators over 4' tall away from guests, but under 4' is a different story


Disney can throw Florida law at the court all they want, it comes down to convincing jurors where they were negligent or not, and you better believe Disney will surely lose this case.

look at the contrast of opinions on this forum and other sites with comment sections, if you get one juror that does not think its disneys fault, the suit goes dead. Assuming it goes that far
 
the lagoon was built over a wild life preservation, animals were there before it was built and florida made them keep them there. They have to move any gators over 4' tall away from guests, but under 4' is a different story
And the fake beach? No one goes to Orlando for a beach.
 
I get the feeling that DIsney will just settle this case rather than deal with the bad PR of going to court with the family of the 2 year old that was killed by an alligator on their property. Disney could probably pay them off with the money under their CEO's couch cushions.
 
It's Disney's fault.

the created a fake beach next to a man lagoon connect by canals to other bodies of natural fresh water.

Disney's signage of no swimming has no mention of Alligators in them.

Disney didn't have security personnel monitoring the patrons' movements

This is all on Disney
That's what I always wanted to know. If it was connected. But even if it wasn't it seems gators wander around Florida because they are animals and some could find shelter in the lagoon.

It's on Disney for not making sure their lagoon is predator free imo.
 
edit, Meh its not even worth arguing anymore

Disney is protected, they own Florida, if you think any interpitation of the law will go against them you're acting a little naive, which AGAIN, it wont go that far.
 
Disney can throw Florida law at the court all they want, it comes down to convincing jurors whether they were negligent or not, and you better believe Disney will surely lose this case.

I don't think this is true at all. Disney will be able to show they took plenty of precautions and they'll be able to point to the lack of any other similar attacks. I read an article the other day which included an alligator expert, asserting an attack on the shoreline of a heavily populated area is really unusual. That paired with the fact the jurors are likely to be from Florida and have preexisting knowledge about the prevalence of alligators...there's certainly a good deal of wiggle room for Disney.

They'll settle though, because they won't want the publicity of a trial. And the family will settle as well, because they won't want to re-live the experience and face accusations of contributory negligence.
 
This situation won't even sniff a trial so the legal interpretations won't matter. It's really at its heart just a very tragic scenario.
 
I get the feeling that DIsney will just settle this case rather than deal with the bad PR of going to court with the family of the 2 year old that was killed by an alligator on their property. Disney could probably pay them off with the money under their CEO's couch cushions.

This ^^^

As if Disney is going to go to court and try and argue against the family that lost their cute 2 year old to a gator on their man made beach and lake. The PR alone would be nightmarish for Disney, no way would they pursue an actual jury trial over this. They'll gladly pay the millions to the family to upkeep a positive image and good faith of their brand. That and probably remove those beaches/create fencing and proper signage.
 
That's what I always wanted to know. If it was connected. But even if it wasn't it seems gators wander around Florida because they are animals and some could find shelter in the lagoon.

It's on Disney for not making sure their lagoon is predator free imo.

This is impossible. Sure you could argue signs should have been better, but alligators are native to Florida and there is no way to remove them all.
 
Of the many things I don't understand, the main one here is the incessant need to place blame. It's a terrible situation all around. Bad for the parents. Bad for Disney. Bad for alligators. Worst for the child.

Establishing blame is a very important part of insuring this doesn't happen again in the future. That's like saying, there shouldn't be any investigation to determine failures during 9/11, the space shuttle explosions, the Orlando night club shootings, ect... We learn from past mistakes to prevent future ones. Someone is to blame; perhaps several people are to blame. Disney should have been more proactive in keeping the gators out of the lagoon and near visitors. The family should have been more aware of the dangers lurking in fresh water in Florida.

There were signs that said "no swimming." I personally interpret that as, "Do not enter the water." Clearly the family took that literally; meaning everything else is okay except swimming. Sounds like a failure of communication on both parties here. Clearer language is needed on signage, which appears to be happening now.
 
Establishing blame is a very important part of insuring this doesn't happen again in the future. That's like saying, there shouldn't be any investigation to determine failures during 9/11, the space shuttle explosions, the Orlando night club shootings, ect... We learn from past mistakes to prevent future ones. Someone is to blame; perhaps several people are to blame. Disney should have been more proactive in keeping the gators out of the lagoon and near visitors. The family should have been more aware of the dangers lurking in fresh water in Florida.

There were signs that said "no swimming." I personally interpret that as, "Do not enter the water." Clearly the family took that literally; meaning everything else is okay except swimming. Sounds like a failure of communication on both parties here. Clearer language is needed on signage, which appears to be happening now.

This ^

It's not had to make it apparent to a worldwide resorts customers that the big lake contains deadly animals capable of taking your child. Disney ultimately are to blame and that blame will ensure it doesn't happen in the future.
 
Alligators are really a miracle of nature. Human society has made thousands of animals extinct and is decimating other animals like elephants and lions but alligators are so resourceful that they literally can't keep them out of the middle of Disney World.


Not to mention they kinda survived multiple extinction events with minor upgrades.


Fuckers sitting underwater while the sky burned.

Biding their time.
 
http://nypost.com/2016/06/29/disney-parks-are-quietly-removing-any-gator-references/

Robinhood-disneyscreencaps_com-4843.jpg


Disney World is removing all alligator references from the park, even from the Jungle Cruise. Next thing you know they'll try to erase some of their movies from existence...
 
I can't really blame them. I feel to an infant child, seeing these cartoon alligators decorating the park might give them the idea that gators aren't something to be as afraid of. I dunno.

I can't imagine it has anything to do with safety, it's that the Jungle Cruise having a joke about crocodiles eating children seems in bad taste now. Toddlers don't make decisions about their safety, cartoon alligators aren't leading them to make dangerous mistakes.
 
I wonder if they are going to pull Tick-Tock from the end of the Peter Pan ride too. Not making the joke comment on the boat safari makes sense though. I'm guessing they will just add them back after while when folks stop talking about it.
 
You don't think they'll eventually pull them from Disneyland as well?
I'd hate to be wrong, but management of the two is so insulated from each other I'd have to say this stays in FL.

A tourist that is completely oblivious to gators will probably be ok in California.
 
Just thought I'd give an update.

Disney has built fences at all of their resorts that have beach style areas (and I believe they put some up at Corando, etc. near water). They are also placing rocks from the fence to the water at the Grand Floridian and Poly as far as I know, don't know about the others, but I assume they will. That way it's clear not to climb over the fence as there is no more beach beyond the fence.

Also the parent's of the Lane Graves have chosen not to sue Disney.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/parents-boy-killed-alligator-disney-park-won-sue-article-1.2718519

Matt and Melissa Graves, whose 2-year-old Lane was dragged to his death at the Orlando resort, said they will “solely be focused on the future health of our family and will not be pursuing a lawsuit against Disney.”

The parents’ joint statement did not say if they received any settlement cash from Disney, and did not cite a specific reason for declining legal action. The parents and Disney reps could not immediately be reached.

I'm sure they received a settlement.
 
I assume every body of water in FL has a gator in it. When I lived in FL I wouldn't even get in a pool without checking the water first.

Didn't trust the water at the beaches either.
 
I wonder if they are going to pull Tick-Tock from the end of the Peter Pan ride too. Not making the joke comment on the boat safari makes sense though. I'm guessing they will just add them back after while when folks stop talking about it.

Tick Tock is a croc. Mind you I can still imagine that it might be offensive to some to keep him in.
 
Sounds like they are heart broken.

"We will forever struggle to comprehend why this happened to our sweet baby, Lane," they said. "As each day passes, the pain gets worse, but we truly appreciate the outpouring of sympathy and warm sentiments we have received from around the world."

Disney World president George Kalogridis said in a statement the company continues to provide support for the family. A spokeswoman, Jacquee Wahler, wouldn't elaborate further.

Authorities say an alligator pulled Lane Graves into the water June 14. His father said a second alligator attacked him as he tried to save his son.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20160720_ap_814d021d43874927a34e60dcf7c2ebc9.html

Did we know about the second gata?
 
I'd hate to be wrong, but management of the two is so insulated from each other I'd have to say this stays in FL.

A tourist that is completely oblivious to gators will probably be ok in California.
Cougars in the forested mountainous areas, coyotes in arid desert areas :)
 

Ya it came out awhile later. They were in the area due to people feeding them despite no feeding signs (and common sense). They've had to have discussions with people who stay at the Poly's area also. The local fire department on Disney property were also talked to about not feeding the gators.

The problem is the people feeding them made the gators who were being fed less afraid of humans.
 
It's on Disney for not making sure their lagoon is predator free imo.

Ummm... That is literally impossible. It would be easier to require everyone who enters the state to sign a release acknowledging any body of water larger than a puddle is likely to have an alligator in it. I'm not suggesting this, I'm merely illustrating how hard it would be to prevent gators from being in the lagoons.

Now, they should definitely have more clear warnings to stay away from the water. Hopefully the signs and the fence will help.
 
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