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[jimbobsmells]

I bet that couple voted Tory all their life too.

 

[Wrestlemania]

well, we will have to disagree on them being idiots, but to put another side forward there will be people voting in this referendum that have never experienced a UK outside of the EU

so one could argue this seniors have seen both sides of the argument

It's completely meaningless. Things are not going back to how they were before the EU if we vote leave.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153929364459580&id=735044579
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...set=a.133572704579.108811.735044579&source=48

Other things he wants to go back to - no Muslims, no gays.
This guy who "just wants to go back to how it was" is a cunt. They all are.

 

[Chinner]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153902959309580&id=735044579

You just can't win against this horseshit, can you? They're delusional.

Back in the day I had to walk to school, there were no buses, and I had to walk up a hill both ways to get there and back. You couldn't buy orange juice from the shops, and you could only buy oranges, and they weren't even called oranges. When I was a lad me dad took me to a shoe smith and said " 'ere 're, you're an apprentice of a shoe smith now. He'll pay you 3 bob. Now don't be daft or I'll have to clout you one' and now I'm a shoe smith.

 

[phisheep]

Can she not postal vote?

Too late to apply now (I only found out about this yesterday). Besides, it would probably get intercepted and filled in on her behalf.

 

[Tak3n]

Back in the day I had to walk to school, there were no buses, and I had to walk up a hill both ways to get there and back. You couldn't buy orange juice from the shops, and you could only buy oranges, and they weren't even called oranges back in the day. When I was a lad me dad took me to a shoe smith and said " 'ere 're, you're an apprentice of a shoe smith now. He'll pay you 3 bob. Now don't be daft or I'll have to clout you one'.

Bah, back when I was at school, you first walked! (yes walked) to school, and guess what.....they even opened in the snow!!! can you believe it, a school open in the snow

and we were allowed snowball fights, fuck me I am so excited now....see what you done, and when you fell over you got up and carried on (remember those days) you were not whisked off and parents called to pick you up**


**funny story, just yesterday my sons school called to tell me my son was hit in the head by a football whilst playing football, we have filled in a accident report, I asked, was he heading the ball?

Yes, came the reply, so we thought he might be injured.....no fucking joke

 

[Best]

I like how they 'carefully' explained. As if this 18 year old was too thick to understand.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

got this in the post this morning from the leave people



oh and on the back was this map

It reads like "brown people are coming to take your jobs and molest your daughters". They're not even trying to hide it now.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

If things were so good as they claim, why did they originally vote to join?

Because no one has voted for what the EU is today.

 

[PJV3]

I like how they 'carefully' explained. As if this 18 year old was too thick to understand.

Should have gone

"Listen, in 1979 we decided to sell everything and have a fucking party, we turned homes into investments, blew the lot and pulled the drawbridge up, now fuck off and don't touch my pension."

 

[Undead]

Because no one has voted for what the EU is today.

But they did vote for it on the basis of one of the original aims of the EU being a single market involving free movement of people, the very thing most are complaining about.

 

[Kabouter]

Because no one has voted for what the EU is today.

Well, they have. The EU is what it is today due to the actions of elected governments like those of the United Kingdom. It's certainly a shame though that the European project no longer seems to be headed toward its originally intended destination.

 

[Tak3n]

Well, they have. The EU is what it is today due to the actions of elected governments like those of the United Kingdom. It's certainly a shame though that the European project no longer seems to be headed toward its originally intended destination.

Holy Moth Balls! you mean a federal europe! I think we all know the chances of that happening in many a lifetime is now at zero, in fact minus 1000000000000000000 percent

 

[Kabouter]

Holy Moth Balls! you mean a federal europe! I think we all know the chances of that happening in many a lifetime is now at zero, in fact minus 1000000000000000000 percent

Tragically, yes. But yeah, that's democracy, the electorates have spoken, and they clearly do not desire it.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

But they did vote for it on the basis of one of the original aims of the EU being a single market involving free movement of people, the very thing most are complaining about.

At the time it was similar sized economies that were better matched to work in union. The problems with the EU started with the rush to introduce countries with economies that were no where near the level of the rest.

There should have been much more due diligence done in ensuring new countries joining were assisted in bringing their economies up to speed before allowing the free movement of people from them.

When economies are relatively well matched the free movement of people simply means that it's easy for people to go where their skills are needed if they desire.

When you have poor countries joining rich countries free movement just means lots will go to the richer side regardless of whether their skills are needed or not.

 

[Psychotext]

"Listen, in 1979 we decided to sell everything and have a fucking party, we turned homes into investments, blew the lot and pulled the drawbridge up, now fuck off and don't touch my pension."

Fuck you, got mine.

 

[Kabouter]

At the time it was similar sized economies that were better matched to work in union. The problems with the EU started with the rush to introduce countries with economies that were no where near the level of the rest.

There should have been much more due diligence done in ensuring new countries joining were assisted in bringing their economies up to speed before allowing the free movement of people from them.

When economies are relatively well matched the free movement of people simply means that it's easy for people to go where their skills are needed if they desire.

When you have poor countries joining rich countries free movement just means lots will go to the richer side regardless of whether their skills are needed or not.

Even with a significant wealth disparity, people still tend to go where their skills are needed, and the Western European economies have profited immensely from immigration from countries like Poland.

 

[avaya]

Tragically, yes. But yeah, that's democracy, the electorates have spoken, and they clearly do not desire it.

Yeah I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss. The current crop of German and French politicians is the issue more than anything. I still think the French and Germans will pull it off. They are always underestimated. I have no data to back it up. All feels.

The Iraq war has had more blowback and consequences tha what anyone could have imagined. Blair was a fucking clown.

 

[Tak3n]

Even with a significant wealth disparity, people still tend to go where their skills are needed, and the Western European economies have profited immensely from immigration from countries like Poland.

My wife was arguing that point just the other day, how countries like Poland/Romania will take a lot longer to develop because the UK et al pinch all the skilled labour force

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

Even with a significant wealth disparity, people still tend to go where their skills are needed, and the Western European economies have profited immensely from immigration from countries like Poland.

Depends on what profit you find important. The largest house builders certainly profited from the influx of cheap self employed tradesmen willing to work for nothing and the government benefitted from their stats and the tradesmen who got priced out of the market not showing on any publicly available employment figures anywhere.

 

[Kabouter]

My wife was arguing that point just the other day, how countries like Poland/Romania will take a lot longer to develop because the UK et al pinch all the skilled labour force

On the other hand, the remittances from people working in the West shouldn't be underestimated. That together with investment from the EU in things like infrastructure, education and healthcare has meant that these economies have been developing incredibly swiftly.

Depends on what profit you find important. The largest house builders certainly profited from the influx of cheap self employed tradesmen willing to work for nothing and the government benefitted from their stats and the tradesmen who got priced out of the market not showing on any publicly available employment figures anywhere.

What about the Britons who saw their purchasing power increase through lower prices for things like homes? That's a pretty important benefit if you ask me. Not to mention the consumption of these new people in Britain, buying things in shops, using services and so on. And of course there's the extra tax income for the government.

 

[Trumpets]

No, they're fucking idiots. And by the time any change happens they are statistically more likely to be dead than the vast majority of people who will have to live with the consequences of their pathetic yearning for a time before they think Europe fucked us over with all those pesky rules and foreign invaders.

This guy who "just wants to go back to how it was" is a cunt. They all are.

You realise that a wavering voter reading that kind of screed will be more likely to vote Leave, don't you?

Keep it up.

 

[ittoryu]

My wife was arguing that point just the other day, how countries like Poland/Romania will take a lot longer to develop because the UK et al pinch all the skilled labour force

Considering how extremely different are both of those countries and considering also the real numbers of migration from Romania (even though the Daily Mail tried its best to predict a billion of them coming over), I don't agree with this point at all.
The reality is that the remain campaign have been focused on the negative effects of leaving EU for maybe too long, and the Leave campaign focus 99% on complete horseshit like "too many immigrants" "let's get our country back" and throwing fake numbers on the face of people with little to no "punishment" for it.

 

[Phantast2k]

Another warning for Brexiters to add to their "brush aside" pile:

IMF says Brexit would trigger UK recession | Business | The Guardian

Leaving the EU would hit British living standards, stoke inflation and wipe up to 5.5% off GDP, the International Monetary Fund has warned with less than a week to go until the referendum.

...

 

[Wrestlemania]

You realise that a wavering voter reading that kind of screed will be more likely to vote Leave, don't you?

Keep it up.

Sure thing, buddy.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

On the other hand, the remittances from people working in the West shouldn't be underestimated. That together with investment from the EU in things like infrastructure, education and healthcare has meant that these economies have been developing incredibly swiftly.



What about the Britons who saw their purchasing power increase through lower prices for things like homes? That's a pretty important benefit if you ask me. Not to mention the consumption of these new people in Britain, buying things in shops, using services and so on. And of course there's the extra tax income for the government.

Homes exploded in price mainly due to the price of land going through the roof.

A lot of the tradesmen who are aggressively pricing themselves on a self employed basis ended up earning so little they ended up claiming in work benefits which are relatively trivial to obtain compared to out of work benefits.

Don't see how anyone wins in that scenario.

Tradesman A can't afford to work at the prices being offered by others anymore so has to leave the market entirely. Problem is he finds large competition from others doing the same and a prevalence of minimum wage / zero hours employment.

Tradesman B can't afford to work at his quoted prices either but it's the only way to get their foot in the door and it's more than they get back home especially with government help.

Both tradesmen combined now have less disposable income than tradesmen A used to have on their own.

Big house builder or builder whilst bemused at the skirmishes beneath their feet at people scrambling to sub contract with no applicable employment laws to worry about to them is happy because their foreign investors are getting paid.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

lol someone added that Qriously poll to the Wikipedia page of EU polls. Come on, a twenty point lead for Leave? I highly doubt that's going to be corroborated by tonight's poll by an actual pollster.

 

[2MF]

Another warning for Brexiters to add to their "brush aside" pile:

IMF says Brexit would trigger UK recession | Business | The Guardian

Leaving the EU would hit British living standards, stoke inflation and wipe up to 5.5% off GDP, the International Monetary Fund has warned with less than a week to go until the referendum.

...

Not that it's hard to dismiss the IMF, given their track record.

 

[Halph n Halph]

On the other hand, the remittances from people working in the West shouldn't be underestimated. That together with investment from the EU in things like infrastructure, education and healthcare has meant that these economies have been developing incredibly swiftly.



What about the Britons who saw their purchasing power increase through lower prices for things like homes? That's a pretty important benefit if you ask me. Not to mention the consumption of these new people in Britain, buying things in shops, using services and so on. And of course there's the extra tax income for the government.

But have house prices dropped or are the shareholders of said mentioned house building companies just making more profit for themselves?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

House prices fell? The wife and I are trying to buy one right now, and the top prize on a scratch card wouldn't be enough ;_;

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

But have house prices dropped or are the shareholders of said mentioned house building companies just making more profit for themselves?

Risen sharply due to increased demand for houses / land.

 

[Kabouter]

But have house prices dropped or are the shareholders of said mentioned house building companies just making more profit for themselves?

That depends on how the market functions, if there is little competition or collusion, then it seems likely that the shareholders received greater returns. If not, then it seems likely that at least some of the lower costs would have translated into lower prices. (Or again, ones that have increased less)

As far as people being outcompeted goes, that's certainly unfortunate for them personally Jimbob, but it is the nature of a free market economy. I recognise that not everyone necessarily wins because of this immigration, but society as a whole does, and not just shareholders.

 

[Ashes]

Depends on what profit you find important. The largest house builders certainly profited from the influx of cheap self employed tradesmen willing to work for nothing and the government benefitted from their stats and the tradesmen who got priced out of the market not showing on any publicly available employment figures anywhere.

Are you sure this is the case? Trade labour salary should go up not down due to migration. It is skilled labour, so I would expect to see an uptick in salary*; is there not also a shortage in the construction industry?

edit:* I should add that this is only my opinion, but not enough people in this country want to become electricians, plumbers or bricklayers.

 

[Snwaters]

At the time it was similar sized economies that were better matched to work in union. The problems with the EU started with the rush to introduce countries with economies that were no where near the level of the rest.

There should have been much more due diligence done in ensuring new countries joining were assisted in bringing their economies up to speed before allowing the free movement of people from them.

When economies are relatively well matched the free movement of people simply means that it's easy for people to go where their skills are needed if they desire.

When you have poor countries joining rich countries free movement just means lots will go to the richer side regardless of whether their skills are needed or not.

Hmm. Looking at the US (and I know when talking about Europe that trying to compare it to the US will cause some to roll their eyes), there are several States that are vastly 'inferior' economically wise than some of the more 'advanced' States- see places like California, New York, Texas, Pennsylvania, etc., with States like Alabama, Mississippi, and other heartland States. It's not something that is relatively recent; there has always been a divide between states in the Union.

What makes it work in the US is that even if they are not as economically powerful, each State does contribute something to the greater whole. The West coast may be a tech hub, and the East coast a center of finance and capital, the middle is the industrial and agricultural hub. Each does something the other can't do, at least not as well or efficiently.

So perhaps it's less to do with the size of the EU's economies, but rather their inability to complement each other? Though such a thing would require a strong central government. And probably a common, shared language.

Just a thought. It will be interesting (and I say interesting in the academic meaning) to see what the EU's economy looks like without the UK. The UK is the fifth largest economy, second only to Germany in the EU, and without it, that could mean more pressure on Germany to keep things going. And increased German dominance will likely be off putting to many other EU nations.

Strange times we live in.

 

[Jasup]

At the time it was similar sized economies that were better matched to work in union. The problems with the EU started with the rush to introduce countries with economies that were no where near the level of the rest.

I have to comment on this. Do you have any idea who was pushing the EU expansion the most during the massive eastern expansion? It was the UK.

Or as the Economist put it:

the eastwards expansion (one of the most significant triumphs of British foreign policy in decades)

It wasn't until 2013 when the British policy about EU expansion changed: http://www.euractiv.com/section/enlargement/news/uk-no-longer-advocates-for-eu-enlargement/

The UK used to be the greatest advocate of EU enlargement. But now its prime minister David Cameron wants to introduce new control mechanisms ?vis-à-vis future EU member countries. [...]

The United Kingdom, the historical advocate of an active EU enlargement policy, including towards Turkey, has shown a change of tone at yesterday's EU summit (20 December).

You seem to have a mindset that the UK is completely removed from the EU already, i.e. EU does something and UK can only comply. I'd challenge this view as the EU is basically its member states and as such the members have a lot of say.

I've linked to this some time ago, but here it is again: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...s-the-uk-at-the-top-table-in-eu-negotiations/
Where it says:

In other words, when it comes to negotiations behind the scenes, before votes take place and before laws are adopted, the data suggest that the UK government is right at the heart of EU policy-making, and certainly at the top table, alongside Germany and France.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Hmm. Looking at the US (and I know when talking about Europe that trying to compare it to the US will cause some to roll their eyes), there are several States that are vastly 'inferior' economically wise than some of the more 'advanced' States- see places like California, New York, Texas, Pennsylvania, etc., with States like Alabama, Mississippi, and other heartland States. It's not something that is relatively recent; there has always been a divide between states in the Union.

What makes it work in the US is that even if they are not as economically powerful, each State does contribute something to the greater whole. The West coast may be a tech hub, and the East coast a center of finance and capital, the middle is the industrial and agricultural hub. Each does something the other can't do, at least not as well or efficiently.

So perhaps it's less to do with the size of the EU's economies, but rather their inability to complement each other? Though such a thing would require a strong central government. And probably a common, shared language.

Just a thought. It will be interesting (and I say interesting in the academic meaning) to see what the EU's economy looks like without the UK. The UK is the fifth largest economy, second only to Germany in the EU, and without it, that could mean more pressure on Germany to keep things going. And increased German dominance will likely be off putting to many other EU nations.

Strange times we live in.

I think America works because regardless of whether you're from New York or Alabama you all feel American. So you don't begrudge tax money collected in New York being spent in Alabama: it's all going towards your country.

We don't really have this in Europe. While some people might say they "feel European" national identities are generally much stronger. That's why you see all the "we send £350m a week to Brussels".

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

That depends on how the market functions, if there is little competition or collusion, then it seems likely that the shareholders received greater returns. If not, then it seems likely that at least some of the lower costs would have translated into lower prices. (Or again, ones that have increased less)

As far as people being outcompeted goes, that's certainly unfortunate for them personally Jimbob, but it is the nature of a free market economy. I recognise that not everyone necessarily wins because of this immigration, but society as a whole does, and not just shareholders.

When it comes to house building / construction there's been no benefit to society, only shareholders.

It always confuses my why the left tend to be so pro EU when a lot of its principles by default are oppressing a lot of the most needy in society.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

I have to comment on this. Do you have any idea who was pushing the EU expansion the most during the massive eastern expansion? It was the UK.

Or as the Economist put it:


It wasn't until 2013 when the British policy about EU expansion changed: http://www.euractiv.com/section/enlargement/news/uk-no-longer-advocates-for-eu-enlargement/


You seem to have a mindset that the UK is completely removed from the EU already, i.e. EU does something and UK can only comply. I'd challenge this view as the EU is basically its member states and as such the members have a lot of say.

I've linked to this some time ago, but here it is again: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...s-the-uk-at-the-top-table-in-eu-negotiations/
Where it says:

They had benefits for both Labour and the Conservatives. Labour get an influx of willing voters and the Conservatives get a load of cheap labour for their chums.

"The UK," was not asked by a vote whether the eastern expansion should happen as it would have been rejected heartily. Only the select few in government got to vote on it and they all had something to gain.

 

[PJV3]

After this week I'm hoping for a good sizable victory for remain, and shipping Boris and Farage to St Helena.

 

[Jasup]

They had benefits for both Labour and the Conservatives. Labour get an influx of willing voters and the Conservatives get a load of cheap labour for their chums.

"The UK," was not asked by a vote whether the eastern expansion should happen as it would have been rejected heartily. Only the select few in government got to vote on it and they all had something to gain.

Ah, so direct democracy is what you're after?

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

Are you sure this is the case? Trade labour salary should go up not down due to migration. It is skilled labour, so I would expect to see an uptick in salary*; is there not also a shortage in the construction industry?

edit:* I should add that this is only my opinion, but not enough people in this country want to become electricians, plumbers or bricklayers.

A door gets hung today for a tenner, it used to be 35-40 quid. It's a dog of a job that's worth much more than a tenner.

As a builder what's the point of employing an apprentice when you have literally thousands of people queuing up to work for similar money?

The shortage of labour in building is a myth. I work in it.

Building and learning a trade is not seen as an attractive career choice anymore for school leavers due to low potential earnings. Sad stuff.

 

[Snwaters]

I think America works because regardless of whether you're from New York or Alabama you all feel American. So you don't begrudge tax money collected in New York being spent in Alabama: it's all going towards your country.

We don't really have this in Europe. While some people might say they "feel European" national identities are generally much stronger. That's why you see all the "we send £350m a week to Brussels".

True. I also don't see how that could have been fixed. Not having a shared language or common culture doesn't help. Only thing close to a common language is English, and that has more to do with America than the UK I think.

If the UK leaves and does okay, that would probably be a rallying cry for a lot of the rising far right groups popping up all over Europe. It would be a shame if we get pre-1914 Europe again, minus the monarchies.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

Ah, so direct democracy is what you're after?

Not sure that was my point.

 

[LemonGremlin]

It's going to be tough for Vote Leave to push their immigration argument now I think, they will have to tread on egg shells or it will get really ugly.

 

[Ashes]

When it comes to house building / construction there's been no benefit to society, only shareholders.

It always confuses my why the left tend to be so pro EU when a lot of its principles by default are oppressing a lot of the most needy in society.

I still am surprised and would really like actual data to support your argument. I've now looked up the data, and I hold true to what I said earlier.

The Construction industry should benefit from EU labour laws especially if there is a shortage in bricklayers for example.

One benefit of leaving the EC is that you could hypothetically free up legislation in that industry. But that doesn't even seem to be the crux of your argument.

 

[PJV3]

It's going to be tough for Vote Leave to push their immigration argument now I think, they will have to tread on egg shells or it will get really ugly.

Yeah, I think the Jo Cox murder, and the Farage immigrants poster might have ended leaves chances.

 

[Kabouter]

True. I also don't see how that could have been fixed. Not having a shared language or common culture doesn't help. Only thing close to a common language is English, and that has more to do with America than the UK I think.

If the UK leaves and does okay, that would probably be a rallying cry for a lot of the rising far right groups popping up all over Europe. It would be a shame if we get pre-1914 Europe again, minus the monarchies.

Eh, pre-1914 seems unlikely. Empire (either colonial or in Europe itself, or both) was what defined Europe's great powers then. The only European power to still truly meet that qualification is Russia.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

I still am surprised and would really like actual data to support your argument. I've now looked up the data, and I hold true to what I said earlier.

The Construction industry should benefit from EU labour laws especially if there is a shortage in bricklayers for example.

One benefit of leaving the EC is that you could hypothetically free up legislation in that industry. But that doesn't even seem to be the crux of your argument.

There's no shortage of brickies, just bricks as a lot of the kilns were turned off in the crash.

Brickies etc all tend to be self employed as subbies you won't see their struggles in government employment figures. Nor are they protected by Labour laws.

There's no minimum wage for a subbies or working hours directive. If they are sick they don't get paid, simple as that. These are the guys who got hammered completely invisibly and discreetly to the public.

 

[Jasup]

I think America works because regardless of whether you're from New York or Alabama you all feel American. So you don't begrudge tax money collected in New York being spent in Alabama: it's all going towards your country.

We don't really have this in Europe. While some people might say they "feel European" national identities are generally much stronger. That's why you see all the "we send £350m a week to Brussels".

Partly true, and it's something we have to work on.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-268_en.htm

You might also want to check Eurobarometer about this issue:
http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_en.htm

Edit:
I also captured this from here [pdf], it's also from Eurobarometer

 

[Lightning Count]

Sick of this whole thing be glad for it to be over. Thankfully it seems leaves chances are pretty low

 

[Snwaters]

Eh, pre-1914 seems unlikely. Empire (either colonial or in Europe itself, or both) was what defined Europe's great powers then. The only European power to still truly meet that qualification is Russia.

I mean in relation to each other; a return to competition rather than cooperation. Many of these groups are pushing a xenophobic platform. Though, one could argue Europe became as powerful as it was in the first place due to competition between states.

Interesting in all this is NATO. I heard Boris J talking about NATO being one of the reasons for a Brexit; in that the argument for staying in the EU was for increased cooperation and coordination, he argued that that was better done through NATO- pointing out campaigns in recent years as evidence.