People really don't seem to get that "why are they talking about their sexuality," "I don't want representation checklists" and "only if the writing is good" all have the effect of maintaining the status quo. It's crazy they'd swear up and down that they're not part of systematic oppression while perpetrating it in their next sentence.
Dishonored 2 to feature prominent LGBT characters
- Thread starter theecakee
- Start date
For sure, my dude. Sexuality is definitely a "real world" issue that has no place in any kind of fictional story like all those other things you mentioned.
Or, bear with me for a second, they actually could flesh out characters' religious and political beliefs in the context of the story they're creating and that would actually be a good thing as well.
Uhhhh...
partyphone
Banned
i know you're being a facetious asshole but those sorts of things actually do come up in games all the time but they're not considered controversial merely for existing. i wonder why...
KimonoNoNo
Member
Dishonored's characters are very much concerned with religion and politics so it's completely applicable.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Good shit Bethesda.
UmbraeCruxis
Banned
This is a great thing. Especially for more representation in video games, which is always a nice thing to have. However, It's weird to me how a lot of people in this thread seem to be saying things like "I was mildly interested and now I'm getting it day 1." Is it to support the devs because they're doing this? I imagine the sexual orientation of the characters won't be a big plot point at all and will be treated like how any rational, real person would act to finding out someone they know is LGBT: "Cool."
Again, more representation is great, but if you weren't interested before or just mildly interested, I don't see how this should change all too much.
Again, more representation is great, but if you weren't interested before or just mildly interested, I don't see how this should change all too much.
I don't mind alt accounts as long as they are well written.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
I read your comment as suggesting that their identity will be relevant to the story or world in some way, but I would think something as simple as mentioning a significant other or an NPC's comment is enough to communicate an LGBT identity for a prominent character and could be the extent of it.
I haven't played the first game, so I don't know if sexuality was a point of conversation in the political and religious context you mentioned. However, I'm confused by your use of "applicable," unless you mean like, "Political marriages are a thing in this game, so a marriage as a power move could happen (and that marriage could end up being a same-sex one)."
-duskdoll-
Member
Only if they are well written though. Can't have someone different than me being represented if their dialogue/storyline isn't oscar worthy. And they can't be all in my face about it either, just enough to hint about their preferences without making me feel uncomfortable or make me think about deeper issues. I shouldn't be exposed to different opinions and sexual preferences just so other people can feel welcomed and acknowledged, it's a slippery slope that could cause me to see them as actual human beings that deserve recognition and acceptance.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Wait, do we actually know like, the character will say like "Oh and by the way, Im gay you know" or whether being a LGBT is simply a part of his/her identity, something that the game just don't flaunt in our faces? If it's the latter then what's the problem exactly really.
God, I really don't see a reason why this should be a problem whatsoever.
the characters in the first were really interesting so I don't think that arkane will fail in that field.
who knows, maybe the outsider will be revealed one the lgbt characters. or maybe there will be a mission where you are asked to save the significant other of a lgbt charcter that has been arrested for being, you know, lgbt (and in the setting i can picture that homosexuality could be outlaw except the fogue feast)
and i hope that, in case one of said characters is a target, there won't be much a controversy about "the game lets you kill a lgbt charcter"
the characters in the first were really interesting so I don't think that arkane will fail in that field.
who knows, maybe the outsider will be revealed one the lgbt characters. or maybe there will be a mission where you are asked to save the significant other of a lgbt charcter that has been arrested for being, you know, lgbt (and in the setting i can picture that homosexuality could be outlaw except the fogue feast)
and i hope that, in case one of said characters is a target, there won't be much a controversy about "the game lets you kill a lgbt charcter"
yeah, it's clearly "pandering" and "marketing" when you can't take two steps online without running into some fucknerd losing their shit over it
If it's the former, how is that a problem? Why is someone casually mentioning their sexuality "in your face"?
If your real issue is "what if the writing is bad?" that applies to every sentence spoken in the game.
KimonoNoNo
Member
A few posts up someone was trying to be sarcastic.
I was just pointing out that politics and religion are very much to the front and centre of Dishonored's world.
We just have Harvey Smith answering a question on Twitter, saying that there are LGBT characters and that they're prominent. That is literally all we know.
D
Deleted member 465307
Unconfirmed Member
Ah, gotcha. Thanks.
A Link to the Past
Banned
OTOH, an LGBT+ villain runs the risk of being the "stereotypical fay villain."
lol
Turns out that SkyTurkey complains about games they don't know
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Speaking of which, which is the most prominent LGBT character in a AAA game so far?
Have we had a LGBT lead yet? Otherwise I guess it would be
.
Have we had a LGBT lead yet? Otherwise I guess it would be
Ellie
I mean the former would just be terrible writing in any situation, because no one says that to strangers in real life out of the blue.
Being that the game is being made by a good studio, I'm sure it will be well handled and probably something half the people playing won't even notice.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I do have to address how absurd it is that people pretend that LGBT status of characters either have to be "too prominent" or "so unimportant that it feels forced." Characters very often have elements of them that are not the center of the story, yet we don't act like it's forced now, do we?
...lots of characters open up about political party and religious beliefs AND gun control.
The problem is that everything is ....
http://awkwardzombie.com/index.php?page=0&comic=120814
FICTIONAL.
So are you saying that we need to go fictional with sexual orientation and make it way more popular than it is already ?
Yup
Woo-Fu
Banned
So not going out of your way to feature LGBT characters in your game---regardless of whether or not doing so adds anything to the gameplay---is part of systematic oppression?
This is why I can't take some people seriously. Most videogame protagonists also seem to be right-handed. I suppose that is the man, trying to keep lefties down?
How does featuring straight characters add anything to the gameplay?
By pushing back against more equal representation by using irrational justifications in order to maintain the oppressive status quo, then yes, you are contributing to the oppression of people.
"I'm not homophobic/racist/sexist, I just don't want LGBTQ/non-white/female characters to represented in a game because reasons"
I can't believe you think that being LGBTQ is equivalent to being left or right handed.
Trevor from GTAV.
GandalftheRainbow
Neo Member
No, but going out of your way to critize putting LGBT characters in games (like you are doing right now) is definetly part of that systemic oppresion.
And when does sexuality has to "add anything to the gamplay"? How could it do that? That's just riddiculous. Does Nathan Drake's blatant heterosexuality add anything to the gameplay?
Are left handed people in any way oppresed anywhere nowadays?
It's very easy to not know what sexuality someone is when those around you know you accept them for what they are irrespective of it.
GandalftheRainbow
Neo Member
If they would know they're accepted why wouldn't they hint at their sexuality in any way? Because poeple often do hint at their sexuailty, especially if they feel comfortable and respected. It's much easier to not know what sexuality someone is when everybody around you is intolerant.
"Shoved down our throats"
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
Kind of? I've been surprised at friends being bi after assuming they were straight/gay for the longest time, because that's what was indicated by the relationships they were in or the attractions they talked about. But unless those topics don't come up at all regarding that person (even in the most occasional or incidental ways), you'd normally at least get a sense of whether they're into the same sex or the opposite sex.
There's also the factor that the vast majority of people are straight, so unless something indicates otherwise, you'd normally just assume everyone is straight. That has a way of making gay and (especially) bisexual people invisible.
Yeah. I mean, friends often do talk about their SO - it's something totally normal that can often come up in conversations. If a guy talks about his boyfriend/a girl about her girlfriend you'll know they are gay/lesbian.
Patrick Young
Member
Regardless of how well these characters are written, I'll always know the developers have to tick that off from a checklist.
It will be natural when it's not news and nobody brings it up because it's just a normal thing.
Publishers aren't the only ones guilty of this. It was sad during E3 to read that certain media were actually keeping white counts and male counts during press conferences.
Equality should be a natural occurrence. Pretending like we're already there and shaming others for not trying isn't how this works.
It will be natural when it's not news and nobody brings it up because it's just a normal thing.
Publishers aren't the only ones guilty of this. It was sad during E3 to read that certain media were actually keeping white counts and male counts during press conferences.
Equality should be a natural occurrence. Pretending like we're already there and shaming others for not trying isn't how this works.
It's you who don't get how this work.
Nothing gets done if you wait for it to happen "naturally" (especially since a lot of people outright refuse to acknowledge there's an issue at all. Simply showing stats is already a good first step). With that mindset we'd still have segregation or even slavery.
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
"Should" or otherwise, we live in the real world, where progress only happens if people campaign for it.
GandalftheRainbow
Neo Member
The only thing sad about that is poeple not getting why media were keeping those counts.
Modest Mauser
Member
It's not news. It's not being brought up. A fan asked a question on Twitter and received a one-word response.
With the Detroit: Become White thread, the 3% female character thread, and this one, I am positively astounded by the amount of people actively trying to come up with any excuse to exclude representation to the point of blatant bigotry.
So many posters who falling over over each other in their attempts to maintain the status quo with one bigoted argument after another, it's unbelievable. Merely just talking about it gets people riled up to the point where they even straight deny or ignore statistics.
So many posters who falling over over each other in their attempts to maintain the status quo with one bigoted argument after another, it's unbelievable. Merely just talking about it gets people riled up to the point where they even straight deny or ignore statistics.
"Always?"
Does that work both ways? When you see a straight white male character, do you say to yourself "oh, it's just the developers checking off a tick on the 'marketability' checklist by trying to appeal to their default audience?"
Isn't it the same thing? I mean, everyone wants well-thought-out, well-written protagonists, and nobody is objecting to games that have them, regardless of their race. But when people complain about how over-represented white, or straight, and male characters are as leads in gaming, their point is that it's far far more common to have a checklist with "white straight male" on it. The point isn't to substitute that checklist with one with minorities on it, the point is to encourage writers to think about the gender and race and sexuality of their characters rather than just going for the default or going for the "safe" option of what they think sells, and to (hopefully) see a bit more variety than we get from the current checklist-driven white-straight-male-as-default system. When you have 3% of the games at E3 with female leads or whatever, it's obvious that nobody is thinking about it.
A writer who uses a certain race or gender or sexuality because it's the default (or who does it because "it's what sells") is certainly no better than the writer ticking off token representation from a list, right?
mikefrails
Banned
I think the pressure to include these character will ultimately make for less than ideal outcomes.
Granted if respective LGBT members help write these characters, that's another story. But I don't want someone who has zero experience with these folks shoving some basic interpretation of gay people into games. I've seen it enough with women and black people.
Granted if respective LGBT members help write these characters, that's another story. But I don't want someone who has zero experience with these folks shoving some basic interpretation of gay people into games. I've seen it enough with women and black people.
What pressure? What '"less than ideal" outcomes'? How does "respective LGBT members" (side question, wtf does this even entail?) make it ok?
Because the way I see it;
- There was no systematic outside pressure to "force" inclusion.
- Even if, and yet again there wasn't, challenging yourself to write new perspectives isn't inherently a bad thing.
- LGBT people aren't magic.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I was completely grossed out by Uncharted 4 artificially forcing Drake's sexual orientation into the story with the completely unnecessary scenes of cohabitation with Elena. At first I thought hey, maybe this is normal and they're just good friends, saving money on rent. But NOPE. Predictably, the writers, who are obviously trying to score virtue points with the heterosexual agenda, had to get into the entire straight marriage controversy.
I mean the game was okay so I kept playing for a few hours. But again and again, Drake's straight marriage to a woman was referenced, I think like every other cutscene. I just gave the fuck up and returned this shit to Gamestop. At this rate in five years we're going to have every game be a platform for heterosexuals (Why ARE heterosexuals so obsessed with sex? I mean I'm not against their lifestyle choice or anything, but don't they realize normal people don't build their identity around their sexual orientation?)
And just to be clear, I'm fine with well written straights, provided they are written by straight writers only and represent a meaningful examination of the hetero struggle. Which is why so much of this stuff just comes off as checklist fodder. A game that was about the hetero experience would be one thing. Husbands and wives in something like Uncharted is another, and is unavoidably forced.
mikefrails
Banned
Guy, there is clearly pressure to include these characters and that's fine. But when we have devs who may not have the right experience to give these characters justice, we end up with stereotypes and other flawed outcomes.
Sweeney Tom
Banned
Agreed. At this point I'm basically scared away from doing anything but coming in, making a positive post appreciating the representation, and leaving. And the only reason I even do the post is because maybe someone who's questioning their identity or orientation, feeling unsure of who they are, will see that representation of people like them still gets support when it happens and feel better.
That's important as hell, and I wish I had threads like these, and people like that, for moments like these when I was unsure of and feeling unsafe because of who I was years ago. It's a shame the people too privileged to have ever been in such a position can only think of why they have to read something so "wasteful" or "unnecessary." Because I assure you, it's not. Representation matters.