Replaying Sonic the Hedgehog reveals it was kind of bad
- Thread starter Cindi Mayweather
- Start date
Thank you, Lord British. Sonic 1 is a solid game. It may have been eclipsed by its sequels, and it's not perfect, but it is in no way "extremely poor."
daTRUballin
Member
Gamers really love to retroactively hate on classic games, don't they? At some point, I'm expecting a thread to pop up talking about how Super Mario World is secretly "bad".
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I didn't feel that way. The most that could be said about MM are the stupid things you have to collect in 1. I even agree other games have trial and error during that time period, but I have fun learning a Mega Man game. I didn't have any fun at all past Green Hill playing Sonic 1.
Couldn't disagree more. They're still brilliant.
I just replayed Sonic 1 on the 3DS last night....and this is a lot of hyperbole.
I never got the whole "trial and error" complaint. Sure, there are a couple of platforms where you don't know if they are gonna fall or rise, which is odd, but the game doesn't straight up kill you if you make a bad decision. You can jump out of your way. Platforms that lift you into spikes give you time to react. If you got killed by being raised into a spike that's not trial and error. That's just you being slow. You have a ton of time to move out of the way.
A ton of times when I was launched fast in Green Hill, Spring Yard, Starlight and even Scrap Brain 1 and 2, I just kept pressing down to keep the ball form going faster and faster, and the game didn't betray me. It left me land safely. Rings indicate where there is safe land underneath, or indicate an arc to jump onto the next platform. I did not meet a forward spring that launched me into danger. I _think_ there are a couple that can launch you into spikes, but IIRC they face back, so you come from where the spikes were. You know the spikes were there.
Most of the deaths I suffered came from being squished by spikes or moving pistons, but those are not trial and error. Falling to my death happened only twice in my playthrough; one in the last moving platforms just before the Spring Yard boss (I fucked up) and one in Starlight 2, cause I got to the end without 50 rings and I wanted that last secret area so I suicided.
I can see why some people hate Labyrinth Zone, but honestly, it is one of my favorite areas. The game just puts its foot down and says "you gotta be _this_ good to proceed". Water actually drowning you is a great change from Mario-like platformers, and makes the zone scary. Exploring Labyrinth Zone is dangerous. Sure, the poor genesis struggles a little at times, but eh. I think the bubble-grabbing-over-an-enemy complaint is valid, but it is rare.
Scrap Brain has some assholish design, sure. Mainly platforms that disappear too quickly underneath you. Even back in the day once I finished Starlight with more than a couple of lives, I could finish Scrap Brain and the game. And it is not really unfair, aside from some very specific parts.
Pushing you back to black and white Labyrinth Zone at the end is a great move. Just a last push to prove you could do it.
I never got the whole "trial and error" complaint. Sure, there are a couple of platforms where you don't know if they are gonna fall or rise, which is odd, but the game doesn't straight up kill you if you make a bad decision. You can jump out of your way. Platforms that lift you into spikes give you time to react. If you got killed by being raised into a spike that's not trial and error. That's just you being slow. You have a ton of time to move out of the way.
A ton of times when I was launched fast in Green Hill, Spring Yard, Starlight and even Scrap Brain 1 and 2, I just kept pressing down to keep the ball form going faster and faster, and the game didn't betray me. It left me land safely. Rings indicate where there is safe land underneath, or indicate an arc to jump onto the next platform. I did not meet a forward spring that launched me into danger. I _think_ there are a couple that can launch you into spikes, but IIRC they face back, so you come from where the spikes were. You know the spikes were there.
Most of the deaths I suffered came from being squished by spikes or moving pistons, but those are not trial and error. Falling to my death happened only twice in my playthrough; one in the last moving platforms just before the Spring Yard boss (I fucked up) and one in Starlight 2, cause I got to the end without 50 rings and I wanted that last secret area so I suicided.
I can see why some people hate Labyrinth Zone, but honestly, it is one of my favorite areas. The game just puts its foot down and says "you gotta be _this_ good to proceed". Water actually drowning you is a great change from Mario-like platformers, and makes the zone scary. Exploring Labyrinth Zone is dangerous. Sure, the poor genesis struggles a little at times, but eh. I think the bubble-grabbing-over-an-enemy complaint is valid, but it is rare.
Scrap Brain has some assholish design, sure. Mainly platforms that disappear too quickly underneath you. Even back in the day once I finished Starlight with more than a couple of lives, I could finish Scrap Brain and the game. And it is not really unfair, aside from some very specific parts.
Pushing you back to black and white Labyrinth Zone at the end is a great move. Just a last push to prove you could do it.
Sonic 1 is good, it's just the sequels were better. Much like Assassins Creed and Uncharted, etc, the first game is the series finding it's footing where the sequel takes that and improves on where it was flawed. The fact that Sonic 1 is still good to play and rewards exploration still makes it viable to play through. It's certainly not a very bad game or terrible, stop with the retroactive hyperbole. Unless this is just another thinly masked GAF thread where people shit on Sonic again cause it was cool, but now Sonic Mania has people hyped so now these people need to bash Classic Sonic even more?
ienjoyrawfish
Member
It's not cool to hate those franchises though.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
I have played 2, 3, and Knuckles. I know them just as well as 1 and played them just as much if not more.
But I haven't played them in years.
ThatStupidLion
Member
just played sonic 2 last night on my retro pi, aside from getting used to the ps3 controller and lack of scanlines, I was loving it. sonic 1 sure does show it's age though comparitively
This is a strange thread. I was actually expecting all the usual trappings of these discussions from people who have no idea how to play Sonic and blame the game for them being terrible at it. What I see instead is a specific critique of Labyrinth Zone, which nobody liked anyway because pure water levels in platformers suck and always will suck, in which I agree with certain points but not with others, and a critique of Scrap Brain which basically boils down to "it's too hard" to which I say... okay, sorry I guess?
The first game is pretty rough and the design isn't as tight as later titles but the gigantic leap from "I have some issues with two of the zones" to "this game is terrible and worse than almost every other classic platformer" doesn't hold at all. There's no meat to this argument to pick apart, it's all just subjective dressing.
They aren't though.
And of course since I have to say it in every thread the Genesis Sonics were always better than Mario, so there.
The first game is pretty rough and the design isn't as tight as later titles but the gigantic leap from "I have some issues with two of the zones" to "this game is terrible and worse than almost every other classic platformer" doesn't hold at all. There's no meat to this argument to pick apart, it's all just subjective dressing.
They aren't though.
And of course since I have to say it in every thread the Genesis Sonics were always better than Mario, so there.
The Illiterati
Member
The 16 bit games were fine for what they are, but they deserved to be left in that era. I liked a ton of crappy mascot games when I was young, and to see this one of all of them be given relevance is absurd.
Imagine if Aero the Acrobat was owned by an equally down on their luck company who won't let go and gave it 15 terrible sequels supported by an aging fanbase who are equally obsessed with an extended cadre of hideous furry friends... it would be pathetic too.
Imagine if Aero the Acrobat was owned by an equally down on their luck company who won't let go and gave it 15 terrible sequels supported by an aging fanbase who are equally obsessed with an extended cadre of hideous furry friends... it would be pathetic too.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
I haven't ever had a problem with air bubbles causing me to get hit or the fire pipes. The addition of drowning adds a lot of tension to the underwater sections in Labyrinth and Scrap Brain as pushing forward to try and find a new air pocket or a path above the water is great, and the fun of those games to me was always trying to find the highest path possible so that I could hit the water as little as I could.
I think the design to allow you to do this in water levels was definitely better in future games - they improved it in Aquatic Ruin in Sonic 2 and perfected it in Hydrocity in Sonic 3 - but it was really thoughtful level design here. The tension of being underwater, from Water Warning to having to find air pockets, drives exploration to avoid that situation as much as possible. It's pretty brilliant design to encourage exploration of alternate paths, IMO.
I think that this is a game that holds up just fine, definitely better than like platformers such as SMW (which I also like, but which is almost a nothing game upon replay because half the time, you can just cape bounce through the levels) and Aladdin SNES (again, which I like, but which aged worse than the more combat-based Genesis version) or the slew of mascot platformers that seemed good at the time, but really aren't so good upon replay (Earthworm Jim, the Mickey Mouse platformers, etc.).
I think the design to allow you to do this in water levels was definitely better in future games - they improved it in Aquatic Ruin in Sonic 2 and perfected it in Hydrocity in Sonic 3 - but it was really thoughtful level design here. The tension of being underwater, from Water Warning to having to find air pockets, drives exploration to avoid that situation as much as possible. It's pretty brilliant design to encourage exploration of alternate paths, IMO.
I think that this is a game that holds up just fine, definitely better than like platformers such as SMW (which I also like, but which is almost a nothing game upon replay because half the time, you can just cape bounce through the levels) and Aladdin SNES (again, which I like, but which aged worse than the more combat-based Genesis version) or the slew of mascot platformers that seemed good at the time, but really aren't so good upon replay (Earthworm Jim, the Mickey Mouse platformers, etc.).
Dragon1893
Member
Wow, this thread is depressing.
Lord British
Member
It's super challenging to comprehend and get into, but it's super rewarding to do so.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
The pacing in those games is waaaayy better than in Sonic 1.
It also feels like there was less emphasis on the tiered level design (i.e. it was still there TO AN EXTENT, but generally things were a lot more linear from my memory) and the design choices were smoother. Despite being underwater stages, Aquatic Ruin and Hydrocity are far smoother than Labyrinth Zone, for example. The multiple characters in 3&K also helped shake up the gameplay nicely, and the special stages feel more skill-based.
They also have more zones, with fewer acts per zone, so the bad stages drag the game down less. With Sonic 1, Marble and Labyrinth Zone are 33% of the game.
I think generally they hold up well. Sonic 1 has a lot of kinks that were specific to it and got largely ironed out with the sequels, but that's just me.
The biggest problem I had with Sonic CD was the way the time travel system worked. It felt like there were too few convenient places to get a good groove going on without being interrupted. Also the special stages were kinda whack.
Granted I was younger and haven't really played it since but I remember those being the things that threw me off. The main thing that always stuck with me was the really surreal, dreamlike atmosphere the game had.
This game still holds up exceptionally well in my opinion and some of the level designs, though not as great focus on speed as the sequels, focus more on platforming and offer some proper challenge.
Seriously, I tried playing Megaman Classic/Legacy Collection at a friend's house and those games just do not seem fun to me. The placement and attack patterns of enemies and the gimmicks some stages have are just trying on my patience. I much prefer the Megaman Zero series anyway.
I actually don't like the classic Mario games but you know what? That's OKAY, it's not for me and people enjoy it. Some time it's okay to not like things but it doesn't mean something isn't bad, that's what we reserve for legitmately bad games.
Seriously, I tried playing Megaman Classic/Legacy Collection at a friend's house and those games just do not seem fun to me. The placement and attack patterns of enemies and the gimmicks some stages have are just trying on my patience. I much prefer the Megaman Zero series anyway.
I actually don't like the classic Mario games but you know what? That's OKAY, it's not for me and people enjoy it. Some time it's okay to not like things but it doesn't mean something isn't bad, that's what we reserve for legitmately bad games.
Professor Beef
Banned
Sonic 1 is rough in some areas, but this right here:
this says all I need to know tbh
this says all I need to know tbh
SkylineRKR
Member
Call me crazy, but I feel the Master System version of Sonic 1 is a much better platform game. I enjoyed it more, it was also less tedious I think.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I still love the first Sonic. I play through it once every couple of months, probably.
We should be friends.
Het_Nkik said:Sonic 1 is my favoriteIt's the one with the most platforming, most emphasis on momentum, and least emphasis on stupid boring speed sections.
We should be friends.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Hydrocity and Aquatic Ruin are some of my favorite stages.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Cindi I love ya, but you got some really dumb opinions and beliefs bae
THAT SAID, Sonic 1 is more like a proof of concept for Sonic 2's refinement and Sonic3 3's perfection
THAT SAID, Sonic 1 is more like a proof of concept for Sonic 2's refinement and Sonic3 3's perfection
SonicMegaDrive
Member
Now there's a game that hasn't held up well.
Ristar and Dynamite Headdy are rad, however.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Mine too. Hydrocity especially is really one of the best examples of how to do an underwater stage right IMO. It doesn't abandon speed, but has tricky platforming, a complex but naturally-evolving design, and has a very rewarding flow.
Man, now I just realized I haven't played that game back-to-front in a while. As far as the first half of Sonic 3 is concerned, Carnival Night is the only real weak link because of the infamous barrel and the surprisingly-long second act. The rest is basically golden.
Hell yeah to all three counts.
AquaticSquirrel
Member
Why is this revisionist history nonsense still a thing?
For the record the original Sonic trilogy were landmark titles and amazing for their time and still mostly hold up really well.
This narrative of "Sonic was always bad! LOL!" is tiresome. People need to stop trying to use the Spider-Man 3 affect.
Yes the current Sonic games are a shitshow and the series has been a mess for years. The weird deviant-art shit only makes the whole thing worse. And yes it's a fairly easy target as a once revered series has lost it's shine and sacred cow status that for example your Marios and Zeldas still retain.
That doesn't mean the original series was bad, terrible, a mess, "never good!" or any other false narrative nonsense.
If you don't like the games then fair enough, maybe they aren't for you. But this stuff seems to come up again and again mostly by people who weren't even old enough to have played Sonic when it came out. In fact a lot of the types of people who spout this tired rhetoric weren't even born when Sonic released. The ones that were around were mostly 2 or 3 year olds.
People need to stop taking their perception of the current Sonic series and trying to retrofit it to the original Megadrive games. Trying to act like all of the rave reviews, great sales, large fanbase and classic status the series attained at the time was just everyone being under some kind of illusion and now the "truth" is out there don't we all feel silly!
Having said all of that, it doesn't mean the games were perfect in every way or flawless and obviously everyone is entitled to their opinions. It's perfectly ok to not like any of the games or not be a big fan, but to try to downplay the impact, quality and "classic" status of the series because of how bad the current games are is getting really really old.
Not trying to have a go at the OP either, just to be clear. I'm more talking about the overall trend and people who perpetuate it.
I propose that before posting an opinion on the quality of the games posters be required to include their age as a rule going forward.
For the record the original Sonic trilogy were landmark titles and amazing for their time and still mostly hold up really well.
This narrative of "Sonic was always bad! LOL!" is tiresome. People need to stop trying to use the Spider-Man 3 affect.
Yes the current Sonic games are a shitshow and the series has been a mess for years. The weird deviant-art shit only makes the whole thing worse. And yes it's a fairly easy target as a once revered series has lost it's shine and sacred cow status that for example your Marios and Zeldas still retain.
That doesn't mean the original series was bad, terrible, a mess, "never good!" or any other false narrative nonsense.
If you don't like the games then fair enough, maybe they aren't for you. But this stuff seems to come up again and again mostly by people who weren't even old enough to have played Sonic when it came out. In fact a lot of the types of people who spout this tired rhetoric weren't even born when Sonic released. The ones that were around were mostly 2 or 3 year olds.
People need to stop taking their perception of the current Sonic series and trying to retrofit it to the original Megadrive games. Trying to act like all of the rave reviews, great sales, large fanbase and classic status the series attained at the time was just everyone being under some kind of illusion and now the "truth" is out there don't we all feel silly!
Having said all of that, it doesn't mean the games were perfect in every way or flawless and obviously everyone is entitled to their opinions. It's perfectly ok to not like any of the games or not be a big fan, but to try to downplay the impact, quality and "classic" status of the series because of how bad the current games are is getting really really old.
Not trying to have a go at the OP either, just to be clear. I'm more talking about the overall trend and people who perpetuate it.
I propose that before posting an opinion on the quality of the games posters be required to include their age as a rule going forward.
Lucky Seven
Banned
Maybe you're just bad at the game, OP :^)
"Maybe this thing that we thought was something... was actually something else."
"Maybe this thing that we thought was something... was actually something else."
Yeah ok, I'm sure the game got to be a classic because Green Hill.
Seriously, what's up with Sonic and revisionism about it's legacy?
Waddle Dee
Member
Couldn't agree more. If there are any "traps" in Sonic 1, they are hinted at before hand or with visual cues. The part I bolded is true. Sonic 1 is a game you can trust and 99% of the time you'll be fine.
Also, I don't understand how someone can say Megaman didn't have trial and error. That series has a lot of infamous bull, and unlike Sonic, Megaman gives you very few lives if you're inexperienced. There's a reason stuff like Quick Man's stage or the floating platforms in Ice Man's stage are so infamous.
Professor Beef
Banned
Because if you like Sonic, you're a weirdo. If you hate Sonic, then everything is aces. Yeah I hate that perception too but after years of trying to convince people otherwise I just ignore or shun them.
*thinking emoji*
Diprosalic
Banned
I have said it before but Sonic at its very best is mediocre.
I hated Sonic 1 on the Master System. It was missing most of what I liked about MD Sonic. No real use of momentum, more basic physics, flat levels. Too much of a standard platformer really.
thepenguin55
Member
Sorry if my thoughts are a little disjointed as I'm just now getting off of work and my mind is kind of all over the place. I find the way people have really turned against Sonic games in recent years to be really odd. Especially people who grew up with those games. I did not grow up a Sega kid. I watched the Sonic cartoons growing up but that was it. I was born in the mid 80s and have been a Nintendo kid my whole life. My first Sonic game was Sonic Adventure when I got my Dreamcast on 9-9-99. I loved it at the time but both it and its sequel have aged terribly. Also, Sonic's track record since 9-9-99 has been sketchy at best.
Having said that, the first time that I really sat down and played a Genesis 2D Sonic game is when I got the Sega Smash Pack on the Dreamcast and I fell in love with Sonic 1. Getting a good run just felt so good and the music was incredible. I discovered emulators shortly thereafter (specifically Genesis ones) and went on to play the shit out of the sequels (mostly Sonic 2). I gained a huge appreciation for not only the Sonic games but also the Genesis and Saturn librarys in the early 2000s. Even the DS/3DS games and Sonic Generations were all generally pretty solid games. I just genuinely don't get the hate for the classic Sonic games because they're so pick up and playable. I play through one or more of these games every year.
Having said that, the first time that I really sat down and played a Genesis 2D Sonic game is when I got the Sega Smash Pack on the Dreamcast and I fell in love with Sonic 1. Getting a good run just felt so good and the music was incredible. I discovered emulators shortly thereafter (specifically Genesis ones) and went on to play the shit out of the sequels (mostly Sonic 2). I gained a huge appreciation for not only the Sonic games but also the Genesis and Saturn librarys in the early 2000s. Even the DS/3DS games and Sonic Generations were all generally pretty solid games. I just genuinely don't get the hate for the classic Sonic games because they're so pick up and playable. I play through one or more of these games every year.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Let me go on the record the "Sonic was never good" revisionist history is the weirdest trend on NeoGAF
Professor Beef
Banned
It's like people wanna keep Sonic fans "in their place" or some shit.
allenpergallon
Member
Let's all take a moment to appreciate the bolded. It's the Sonic Team (and to a further extent, Sega) staple. I can't count how many times I've heard of people going from hating to adoring NiGHTS once they spent time learning the game.
As for Sonic 1, it's fine. Not really too easy or too hard if you're patient and learn the game. It's just a little disjointed at times and doesn't hold a candle to its superior follow-ups.
It's not really a NeoGAF thing specifically, it's a teenage youtuber thing from people who are evidently terrible at 2D platformers from lack of experience and/or interest that sometimes manifests itself at NeoGAF because some of those people are inevitable those who also post here.