The Democratic National Convention OT |2016|: The One With the Policy

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Iirc shouldn't the minimum wage be like 18 bucks and hour if it was keeping track with its historic value in the 60s?

The top economist on the subject, a major advocate of increasing of the minimum wage, and co-author in writting the book on the case for increasing the minimum wage says it should be $12 nationwide as a floor, but higher elsewhere:


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017I2M9BK/?tag=neogaf0e-20

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/11/opinion/sunday/the-minimum-wage-how-much-is-too-much.html

For example, David Card of the University of California, Berkeley, and I found that when New Jersey raised its minimum wage from $4.25 to $5.05 an hour in 1992 (or from about $7.25 to $8.60 in today’s dollars), job growth at fast-food restaurants in the state was just as strong as it was at restaurants across the border in Pennsylvania, where the minimum wage remained $4.25 an hour. Equally important — but less well known — within New Jersey, job growth was just as strong at low-wage restaurants that were constrained by the law to raise pay as it was at higher-wage restaurants that were not directly affected by the increase since their workers already earned more than the new minimum.

I am frequently asked, “How high can the minimum wage go without jeopardizing employment of low-wage workers? And at what level would further minimum wage increases result in more job losses than wage gains, lowering the earnings of low-wage workers as a whole?”

Although available research cannot precisely answer these questions, I am confident that a federal minimum wage that rises to around $12 an hour over the next five years or so would not have a meaningful negative effect on United States employment. One reason for this judgment is that around 140 research projects commissioned by Britain’s independent Low Pay Commission have found that the minimum wage “has led to higher than average wage increases for the lowest paid, with little evidence of adverse effects on employment or the economy.” A $12-per-hour minimum wage in the United States phased in over several years would be in the same ballpark as Britain’s minimum wage today.

But $15 an hour is beyond international experience, and could well be counterproductive. Although some high-wage cities and states could probably absorb a $15-an-hour minimum wage with little or no job loss, it is far from clear that the same could be said for every state, city and town in the United States.
 
Wow, everyone was talking about Bill's 2012 speech, so I just watched it and it really is great. What's astonishing though is how policy focused it is, I'd forgotten what it's like when both sides at least present actual plans and arguments.
 
Finally got a chance to go back and watch parts I missed. I really liked the Fight Song montage, sure some people hate the song, but it was good lol

Edit: Dude, Alicia Keys is AWESOME here

Edit2: Omg glass breaking video intro for Hillary, hahaa
 
Wow, everyone was talking about Bill's 2012 speech, so I just watched it and it really is great. What's astonishing though is how policy focused it is, I'd forgotten what it's like when both sides at least present actual plans and arguments.

Bill had a different job in 2012, he was giving the speech as "Former President Bill Clinton." This year he gave the speech as "husband of the Democratic Nominee Hillary Clinton." You'll likely see Obama take up Bill's role from 2012 this year since Bill had to do what Michelle did in 2008.
 
TV Ratings: Bill Clinton Boosts Democratic National Convention Night 2 Over RNC
The second night of the Democratic National Convention scored big with NBC in preliminary ratings. The Peacock drew 5.46 million total viewers and a 1.3 rating in the advertiser-coveted 18-49 demographic during the 10 p.m. hour, more than the demo average for ABC and CBS’ coverage combined. ABC weighed in with 3.43 million and a 0.7; CBS with 2.51 million and a 0.4. That means 11.4 million tuned in to either of those three nets to see former president and possible future First Gentleman Bill Clinton deliver a lengthy speech in praise of official Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Rodham Clinton, with a 2.4 demo rating in total.

Like the first night of DNC coverage on the broadcast nets, that beats out its Republican National Convention counterpart. Last week’s RNC night two drew 10.1 million total viewers and a 2.1 demo rating in the early ratings.
http://variety.com/2016/tv/news/dem...two-bill-clinton-speech-beats-rnc-1201824474/
 
Bill had a different job in 2012, he was giving the speech as "Former President Bill Clinton." This year he gave the speech as "husband of the Democratic Nominee Hillary Clinton." You'll likely see Obama take up Bill's role from 2012 this year since Bill had to do what Michelle did in 2008.

Oh yeah, of course, I understand that. It's more that he spends a lot of time talking about Republican tax plans and budgets that they had presented. Meanwhile, with Donald, it's all these nebulous promises.
 
I'm actually pretty open to Hillary's faults. I was a Bernie supporter and I think she handled several things poorly or wrongly.

But the mentality that politicians who change their positions are weak or hypocritical or lack in conviction is a seriously dangerous and inhumane way of treating a person. I don't approve of that for anyone, not just Hillary. People change. And it's a good thing for them to change if it's for the better.

So, yeah, things like choosing to go to Iraq when we shouldn't have? Wrong choice, definitely, but I think it's more insane to permanently hold that against her when we were ALL operating on bad information that lead to most of the country agreeing that we should go to Iraq. It's a mistake literally almost everyone in America made. I don't see it as mental gymnastics to not hold her to an impossible standard.

As someone who grew up in a Conservative-as-fuck household, I take no issue with people changing their beliefs. I was a Republican by default until 13 or so, after which I had the mental capacity to think for myself.

My issue is that Hillary is garnering a completely unwarranted level of praise. As argued in this thread already, she tends to take positions long after they've been made acceptable by public opinion; that is not commendable. It's practical. Still claiming that the Iraq War was a good idea, gay marriage should be disallowed, and that "super predators" should still be "brought to heel" would be political suicide. This isn't to say that all of her positions are completely phony--who can say?--but why should we make excuses for her now?

It isn't like she's become some #woke peacenik. She's a massive supporter of the brutally repressive Israeli government and, as recently as a few years ago, rallied for the intervention in Libya (and creepily celebrated Gaddafi's death, who had a bayonet shoved up his ass).
 
This really doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand but god I hate utilitarianism. I care for deontological ethics even less.
Both philosophies end up ignoring the individual. Not to mention they often ignore contexts and complications in regards to various situations of life. They can also be used to justify ignoring/doing even worse to the minority especially in favor of the majority. It's depressing how long they were both such rigid schools of thought. It's even more depressing the extremes people took them to.

Feminist critique that revolved around putting yourself in someone's elses shoe's just feels way more personable to me. Carol Gilligan and Nel Noddings were great early-ish feminist writers. That with Sartre's existentialism and proposals by Wiesenthal are more nuanced ethical standards for me.

In regards to relating it to the topic, compromise with the Republicans more or less ruined lives for decades. I'm not going to hold Hillary to the fire for that, it's a problem that Democrats as a whole more or less embraced and one of my biggest issues with them as a party. But if they're actually going to turn out for the downticket for once, make the SC liberal, and gain control of all branches of government, I'll maybe start to like them more. It's an issue to me because the two party system and the way it has behaved with compromise after compromise silences minority voices. That's where pretty much any of my critique of the Democrats comes from. I will, of course, vote for them. But it's because I more or less have to. Which isn't really a standing ovation for how they've behaved. And it's not because I agree with everything that they stand for. Just no one else comes close to representing my ideals in the political landscape that has any shot at winning. But they're finally starting to veer left-ward again so that's a good sign. Big thanks to Bernie for that.

I mean, I get that it's frustrating. People did suffer because of bad policy in the 90s. But the alternative was losing, and letting the Republicans craft even worse policy that would have hurt even more. If Bill hadn't been willing to compromise to win, we would have GHWB/Bob Dole appointed justices still on the court in place of his, and do you think we'd have marriage equality now? Yeah, he compromised on basic rights, but it was a time and a place when pretty substantial majorities were again basic rights. They tried to do the most good they could with the public they had. I'm with you that I'm really hyped to see the party love left and for real leftists to have some representation. I'm not one, but they've been repressed as a voice for decades now and I'm glad that's come to an end. I wish the left were quite as happy about it?

But ultimately, any political system has to function as majority coalitions. Whether that's in a multiparty European system where coalitions form in Parliament after the election, or the two-party American system where the two parties function as permanent coalitions, and their constituting factions hash out the terms of their alliance before the election in the party platform. In either system, the true left isn't going to be the majority in America, at least not anytime soon, and it's going to have to make concessions to the center. The only real advantage afforded by a multiparty system is the satisfaction you get from voting for a party you almost completely agree with, even if that party is going to sell most of those points away too a larger party as part of a coalition once the election is done. The end result is the same.
 
As someone who grew up in a Conservative-as-fuck household, I take no issue with people changing their beliefs. I was a Republican by default until 13 or so, after which I had the mental capacity to think for myself.

My issue is that Hillary is garnering a completely unwarranted level of praise. As argued in this thread already, she tends to take positions long after they've been made acceptable by public opinion; that is not commendable. It's practical. Still claiming that the Iraq War was a good idea, gay marriage should be disallowed, and that "super predators" should still be "brought to heel" would be political suicide. This isn't to say that all of her positions are completely phony--who can say?--but why should we make excuses for her now?

It isn't like she's become some #woke peacenik. She's a massive supporter of the brutally repressive Israeli government and, as recently as a few years ago, rallied for the intervention in Libya (and creepily celebrated Gaddafi's death, who had a bayonet shoved up his ass).

You're assuming phoniness when you have no cause to do so.

Allow me an alternative conspiracy theory: What if she was actually doing the practical thing in the past and in reality thought the Iraq War was a terrible idea, gay marriage is should be allowed, and didn't like to use such language to describe black people but had to because it was practical, and it is only in this day and age that where she can say such things openly and not suicide her political career before it gets off the ground? So she's geniuine now, but was merely practical in the past.

The argument is basically the same as Denisse's: change is fine, but Hillary's change is wrong because it's obviously insincere because I feel it is. Just look at your phrasing, that 'it isn't to say all her positions are completely phony'. You've yet to prove any of them are.

Like I said, I'm not trying to sing her praises unreasonably or give her an unreasonable benefit of the doubt. But I don't see it as unreasonable to say that she has changed as the world has, something that is a fundamentally good thing, especially as a politician, an occupation in which you have to be in touch with the modern crowd. Iksenpets outlined it pretty well, a politician whose so radical that they advocate progressive policies ahead of their time is just going to be a polician that accomplishes nothing. As I said, I didn't change my homophobic views until I was put in an environment where such things were discouraged, which forced me to re-evaluate them. Is my change any less genuine or meaningful because I changed with everybody else instead of ahead of everyone else?

Edit: and to be clear, I don't think Hillary tells the truth all the time. She clearly doesn't. But no one does. This doesn't make her any more malicious or phony than most politicians, who are public figures who have to cover their asses. As I said, I am open to her faults. But with this election, we have to come down to real, meaningful and most importantly present faults.

That israel government claim, I'm gonna have to investigate that later on my own, because that sounds like something more legitimate. But things like her flopping on issues that literally everyone in America flopped on? No, that's not a reasonable mark against her, not when she's acknowledged and moved past those mistakes.
 
I hope reddit isnt an indicator of wider trends. There's nothing but talk about emails and how much Hilary and the DNC suck.

Every website (or at least subforums) becomes an echo chamber to a great extent by process of elimination and people choosing never to return to certain places. It's impossible to get an aggregate perspective short of having maybe 100 different forums/blogs you visit, and even then their exposure, perceived value, activity, and number of active users all come into play. Not to mention that you're only seeing the opinions of people either paid to bother, or with the free time to bother :p
 
You're assuming phoniness when you have no cause to do so.

Allow me an alternative conspiracy theory: What if she was actually doing the practical thing in the past and in reality thought the Iraq War was a terrible idea, gay marriage is should be allowed, and didn't like to use such language to describe black people but had to because it was practical, and it is only in this day and age that where she can say such things openly and not suicide her political career before it gets off the ground?

The argument is basically the same as Denisse's: change is fine, but Hillary's change is wrong because it's obviously insincere because I feel it is. Just look at your phrasing, that 'it isn't to say all her positions are completely phony'. You've yet to prove any of them are.

Like I said, I'm not trying to sing her praises unreasonably or give her an unreasonable benefit of the doubt. But I don't see it as unreasonable to say that she has changed as the world has, something that is a fundamentally good thing, especially as a politician. As I said, I didn't change my homophobic views until I was put in an environment where such things were discouraged, which forced me to re-evaluate them. Is my change any less genuine or meaningful because I changed with everybody else instead of ahead of everyone else?

You are giving her unreasonable benefit of the doubt, which is what I took issue with in the first place.

I'd be willing to bet that she holds the progressive principles genuinely, because she atleast holds them for years at a time, and when you pretend to hold those positions for that long, then it's not really shilling, it's a genuine change. And that should be applaudable.

In response to your alternate "conspiracy theory," you're saying she held contrary beliefs at the time, but supported racist/bigoted/catastrophically hawkish viewpoints regardless for political gain? If so, then she is disgustingly and indefensibly cynical. Over one-hundred thousand dead Iraqis are a "mere practicality" indeed! And all this, then, to pander to conservatives--I remember 2003 very well, and there was a massive public outcry against the war.

Alternatively, she held those views genuinely at a time when she could have easily felt otherwise. We're talking about a fully grown, well-educated, and purportedly very liberal Democrat. She can and should be judged for the consequences of her actions, and we should be highly skeptical of whatever political project she claims to support now.

edit:
That israel government claim, I'm gonna have to investigate that later on my own, because that sounds like something more legitimate. But things like her flopping on issues that literally everyone in America flopped on? No, that's not a reasonable mark against her, not when she's acknowledged and moved past those mistakes.

I missed your edit, but you seriously need to reexamine this.

edit 2:

https://theintercept.com/2016/02/18...ows-to-embrace-an-extremist-agenda-on-israel/
 
I hope reddit isnt an indicator of wider trends. There's nothing but talk about emails and how much Hilary and the DNC suck.

r/politics is r/the_donald part 2.

The Bernie folks kicked all the Hillary supporters and normal Bernie supporters out. Then when they left after Bernie lost, Donald took over in the vacuum. The mods are hardcore Busters, so they just let the place fall apart.

It's a lost cause.
 
In response to your alternate "conspiracy theory," you're saying she held contrary beliefs at the time, but supported racist/bigoted/catastrophically hawkish viewpoints regardless for political gain? If so, then she is disgustingly and indefensibly cynical. Over one-hundred thousand dead Iraqis are a "mere practicality" indeed! And all this, then, to pander to conservatives--I remember 2003 very well, and there was a massive public outcry against the war.

I noted it as an alternative conspiracy theory because I view it as equally baseless. Either way, you're basically saying that she's not supposed to have supported positions she had reason to support at the time, and evidence of her changing is evidence of lack of sincerity. With Iraq, all of America was operating on bad intel. It's not to exonerate her, but if I damn her for her position at the time then, then I damn pretty much everyone I know, including myself.

Alternatively, she held those views genuinely at a time when she could have easily felt otherwise. We're talking about a fully grown, well-educated, and purportedly very liberal Democrat. She can and should be judged for the consequences of her actions, and we should be highly skeptical of whatever political project she claims to support now.

So grown people can't change? Just the last page, a mod admitted he held misogynistic beliefs until well out of college. Again, this isn't about not holding her accountable because we should, but if my friend or even a stranger came up to me and said "I supported the Iraq war at the time but not anymore" my response isn't a suspicious "Do you really not support it anymore? I'm not sure" No one's is.

I missed your edit, but you seriously need to reexamine this.

What, the majority of America didn't want to go to Iraq? I'm looking up information right now, and feel free to dispute me on this, but I remember the islamophobia and war support being fairly strong. The polls I'm looking at have support for it consistently up over 50% until 2005. Gay rights? MASSIVE flop across the entire nation which I am again a part of.

So no, I don't see it as reasonable that she receives more than an acknowledgement of those position being past mistakes that she has since moved on from. I apply that standard to everyone.
 
You are giving her unreasonable benefit of the doubt, which is what I took issue with in the first place.
Based on what? You've given one policy issue. How do you plan to convince people with one policy issue for a person who has helped millions of people over decades (and that's not an exaggeration!)?

In response to your alternate "conspiracy theory," you're saying she held contrary beliefs at the time, but supported racist/bigoted/catastrophically hawkish viewpoints regardless for political gain? If so, then she is disgustingly and indefensibly cynical. Over one-hundred thousand dead Iraqis are a "mere practicality" indeed! And all this, then, to pander to conservatives--I remember 2003 very well, and there was a massive public outcry against the war.

Alternatively, she held those views genuinely at a time when she could have easily felt otherwise. We're talking about a fully grown, well-educated, and purportedly very liberal Democrat. She can and should be judged for the consequences of her actions, and we should be highly skeptical of whatever political project she claims to support now.
Not sure what your first question is referring to. Can you clarify what about her past policy has been racist/bigoted/catastrophic? A lot of people hold these views until there is something that convinces them otherwise, and it's not as if that's an instantaneous process or that we aren't born with some amount of hate in our hearts. It takes a while to get all the stuff that's planted in us from a very young age out and reexamine it. And that's not our fault, that's just a process of being human and growing rather than stagnating.

As for the war comments, war is a nasty business but it was also one that, in 2003, America was unlikely to be able to avoid. For as much as you say there were people who were counter to war at that time, there were tens of millions who were calling for blood. And yes, to quell political issues at home, sometimes you must quell political issues abroad, and that doesn't always end well for either side. A huge number of Iraqis died, and many thousands of American soldiers, and soldiers from other countries died. That is the nature of war. It is nasty and brutish and for as much as every nation wishes to avoid it, nations cannot ignore terrorist attacks because they are successful at causing civil unrest in their countries of origin.

We have the benefit of hindsight, we should not have gone into that war. At the same time, the last "just" war we have fought, if any war can be called just, was World War II (and we stayed out of that war for a long time in spite of knowing the human atrocities that were occurring). Also worth noting that Bush, not Clinton, oversaw the Iraq War. The Commander-in-Chief, thus responsible for sending those men and women to slaughter and die, was Bush. Not Clinton.
 
I hope reddit isnt an indicator of wider trends. There's nothing but talk about emails and how much Hilary and the DNC suck.

naw...all i ever see from the bob and republicans on social media are BENGHAZI or EMAILS. its quite odd as some of these people are pretty educated (on paper) but post the same crazy shit in support of trump.
 
r/politics is r/the_donald part 2.

The Bernie folks kicked all the Hillary supporters and normal Bernie supporters out. Then when they left after Bernie lost, Donald took over in the vacuum. The mods are hardcore Busters, so they just let the place fall apart.

It's a lost cause.

Trump calling for his opponent to be hacked is currently below the top 3 posts, while it is the main headline on many news websites.

The first two are how Hillary is a bad candidate who can't convert Bern or busters and the third is DNC leak info (finance stuff specifically)

r/politics just upvotes the things it likes to see, not what's really newsworthy. I was worried about the reddit contingents representation too and now I realise it's a just not worth reading.
 
This will be the first time I've heard Kaine deliver a speech. I'm sure he'll be overshadowed by Joe and POTUS but is he a good speaker in his own right?

All I know is that he's a self proclaimed 'boring guy'. I hope he brings strong energy and presence to the stage tonight.
 
This will be the first time I've heard Kaine deliver a speech. I'm sure he'll be overshadowed by Joe and POTUS but is he a good speaker in his own right?

All I know is that he's a self proclaimed 'boring guy'. I hope he brings strong energy and presence to the stage tonight.

Did you not see his speech with Hilary the other day? The guy is a great speaker.
 
Caine is ridiculously positive.

His smile is the opposite of the RNC basically.
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