Several French cities ban Burkinis on beaches, citing "public order" concerns

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This reminds me of the NPR story about Muslim women who want to help the French military fight actual terrorists but are turned away because they aren't allowed to wear their hijab even in support positions. There's even a photo of one of the quoted women showcasing her in her hijab at a pool.

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/07/26/487468832/french-army-asks-citizens-to-enlist-but-no-muslim-headscarves-please

"If I weren't Muslim, I think I would be so afraid of these people," she said, referring to Muslims. That's precisely why she came to volunteer, hijab proudly wrapped around her head.

"For me, it's discouraging. We want to show that we are against this violence," she said, adding, "We are demotivated."
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Seeing terrorists take up these lone wolf tactics you would think French officials would actually try not to ostracize people that could help them stop these acts. This Donald Trump bullshit is playing right into the terrorists' hands and are making them less safe.
 
Bloody_Five said:
I am saying that we should be proud of having educated our women enough so they don't have to put up with such non sense.
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Yes, Muslim women are uneducated rubes, kept under lock and key by their brutish husbands. It is the burden of the educated, civilized white (wo)man to show them the way. And if they don't agree, then fuck them they'll be forced to agree.
 
IvanJ said:
I just came here to see what a burkini is...And it looks really OK, I really don't see the need for a ban. Maybe the mayor of Cannes should come to a Bosnian beach
bosanska_plaza.jpg
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Kerchiefgasm
 
Bloody_Five said:
I am saying that we should be proud of having educated our women enough so they don't have to put up with such non sense.
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Lots of Muslim women are educated and empowered enough to make their own decisions. You are making some pretty nasty generalizations.

This reminds me of the NPR story about Muslim women who want to help the French military fight actual terrorists but are turned away because they aren't allowed to wear their hijab even in support positions. There's even a photo of one of the quoted women showcasing her in her hijab at a pool.

http://www.npr.org/sections/parallel...scarves-please
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Aww, it's so nice to see someone who wants to stand up for their country like that. And ya, disgusting that she is being turned away. She is as French as any other French person.
 
Audioboxer said:
Even although I'm fighting against this that is a stupid comparison. Turkey isn't too bad.

In some places in those countries try wearing a typical bikinni and seeing how you get on.

France is in the wrong here but I wouldn't use even more oppressive locations to prove a point.
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Its not a stupid comparison at all. I lived in the UAE for 6 months for work and seen enough skin as it is, i couldve sworn i was in a western country. Pakistan (more upper class Pakistan that is, so Lahore, Islamabad) are very modern in clothing whereby you see girls in mini skirts and a lot of revealing clothing. Unless you are in a really fucked up country like Iran or Saudi Arabia, its a whole different story, and while its off topic, they do have a lot of crazy laws, especially on women, which even go against Islam as a religion, in which yes i agree wearing a bikini in certain countries will get you fucked, but in the most part, it goes to show how fucked up this law really is, but then again, it is France after all.
 
Pastry said:
I have no idea why France has such problems assimilating immigrants.
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Come the fuck on, like if France is the only country that has problems with minorities.

Reading this thread sounds like america has no problems. Muslims tend to not be shot atleast
 
PdotMichael said:
What question?

Your two examples aren't even close being somehow related to the opression of such muslim women.
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Quit dodging. Your statement was:

Banning oppressive things isn't oppressive.
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One thing is rooted in white beauty standards, one thing is related in patriarchal religious standards. Explain to me why it's ok for those things not to be banned but it is for this thing to be banned. If your argument is "because Muslims" then your argument is flawed.
 
Lime said:
Again, some women want to wear this as their swimwear. By telling them what to wear, you're oppressing them.
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Yep and...

Lime said:
I don't understand what separation between Church and State has to do with what you wear on the beach. Can the people somehow invoking secularism in this thread explain to me the connection?
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Yep.

This whole notion that a muslim woman couldn't possibly actually want to dress this way and that she must either be forced to or brainwashed into it is disgusting and wrecks of a colonialist mentality.
 
Having the freedom to choose to cover your body is now illegal in Cannes. That's a big deal.

Thankfully I'll never visit an oppressive location like Cannes.
 
sphagnum said:
Quit dodging. Your statement was:



One thing is rooted in white beauty standards, one thing is related in patriarchal religious standards. Explain to me why it's ok for those things not to be banned but for this thing to be banned. If your argument is "because Muslims" then your argument is flawed.
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Yes, and neither of the two listed points aren't even close or even oppresive in the first place to the pressure and oppresion women are dealing in redical muslim families and social groups.
 
JP_ said:
I know you've probably heard it a million times and just choose to ignore it, but if you somehow weren't aware because you watch too much Fox News, some women choose to wear head scarves and burkinis. Maybe you don't think women are capable of making choices for themselves, but I personally have no problem with someone choosing to wear a swimsuit they prefer.

Women shouldn't be forced to wear them and they shouldn't be banned from wearing them. Simple.
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Yea, and some women sided with not giving women the right to vote, drive, etc.

Just because you happen to be okay with certain forms of oppression doesn't make it not oppression, and that includes religious reasons.
 
sphagnum said:
Black women straightening their hair largely stems from oppressive white beauty standards that say that natural black hair is unkempt or unclean.


So again, here, we see that this is about cultural Christianity and not a commitment to freedom.
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You are correct.
This is really about a fight between two different and mostly incompatible visions of society.
Personally, I will take a system that favors:
-equality between men and women
-decision based on reason an logic and not "authority from a Holy Book"
-politics separated from religion rather than a mix of the two
-the emancipation of man from natural constraints rather than the submission of man to "the will of god."
 
RazMaTaz said:
Its not a stupid comparison at all. I lived in the UAE for 6 months for work and seen enough skin as it is, i couldve sworn i was in a western country. Pakistan (more upper class Pakistan that is, so Lahore, Islamabad) are very modern in clothing whereby you see girls in mini skirts and a lot of revealing clothing. Unless you are in a really fucked up country like Iran or Saudi Arabia, its a whole different story, and while its off topic, they do have a lot of crazy laws, especially on women, which even go against Islam as a religion, but in the most part, it goes to show how fucked up this law really is, but then again, it is France after all.
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Sections of these countries, especially those with a lot of tourism and people like yourself working abroad can be okay. Let's not get ahead of ourselves though. In some places if you are a devout Muslim strictly following code fine, but try being a liberal, Jew, Christian, homosexual or something else, good luck.

Even Dubai a tourist and work hotspot

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/united-arab-emirates/local-laws-and-customs

Not as liberal as France in the slightest lol. If you read the above and think so then you are absolutely insane.
 
jakonovski said:
France is very intolerant of what they perceive as anti-French. To a rather jingoist extent.
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? It's has nothing to do with "anti-French", France has been strongly anti-clerical since the Revolution, we don't have much patience for religious expression, that's all. We have fought hard against the Catholic Church for independence.

andythinkpad said:
At some point you just have to admit the French are egging it on the Muslims, hence they get more attacks than Germany.
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Good job blaming the murder of innocents on a piece of clothing.
 
Bloody_Five said:
You touch on two different, yet important things.

-Straightening your hair is a fashion statement
Covering your hair with a veil or skin with burkini is a religious statement.
It says : a holy book claims that women should be "modest in their appearance" in order not to tempt men. For a country that believes in equality between men and women, this is should not be ok.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-textured_hair#Politics_of_Black_hair

Straightening your hair seems like a fashion statement, but it's actually very tied up in the cultural politics of control historically. That poster set a trap and you walked right into it.
 
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
the question though is how do you determine whether someone does so willingly or not especially with children. I don't agree with the banning but I also don't like parents enforcing/imprinting their religion on their kids, any religion.
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I'm not a fan of parents indoctrinating kids into their religion but yeah it's a pretty universal thing and I think the only way to reduce it is to be more inclusive. Let's say this ban goes through -- what do we expect the outcome to be? You think muslim women will just wear a regular bikini? My bet is they'll just stop going to the beach. Now you've further isolated them, which is simply counter-productive.

Integrated, modern societies are the best way to reduce religiousness and increase secularism. Europe has done a poor job integrating their muslim populations -- they end up with what are basically ghettos that are highly segregated and often have high poverty rates. When you segregate communities and a lack of support allows poverty to decimate livelihoods and socioeconomic mobility, it creates problems -- this goes for all races and religions.
 
People in this thread are finding it incredibly hard to grasp that women actually WANT to wear this kind of outfit.

It's not much different to Iran enforcing headscarves on women who don't want to wear them.
 
Jeels said:
It isn't oppressive if she is more comfortable wearing it...Don't be dense and try to think about it from a different perspective instead of in the frame of religion.
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Is it really more comfortable, or do they only find it comfortable because they were raised into it by religious parents?

Yeah, there is an argument to be made when letting a woman decide what they should wear, but when the argument in hand involves a patriarchal piece of clothing that is meant to suppress the woman..
 
Kurtofan said:
? It's has nothing to do with "anti-French", France has been strongly anti-clerical for a while, we don't have much patience for religious expression, that's all.
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And for some reason the non-white French are the ones being targeted, particularly Muslim women who are also the weakest socio-economically. Please, this is quite clearly along the same continuum of jingoism and bigotry that has spawned the anti-Islamic far right parties in Europe.
 
JP_ said:
I'm not a fan of parents indoctrinating kids into their religion but yeah it's a pretty universal thing and I think the only way to reduce it is to be more inclusive. Let's say this ban goes through -- what do we expect the outcome to be? You think muslim women will just wear a regular bikini? My bet is they'll just stop going to the beach. Now you've further isolated them, which is simply counter-productive.

Integrated, modern societies are the best way to reduce religiousness and increase secularism. Europe has done a poor job integrating their muslim populations -- they end up with what are basically ghettos that are highly segregated and often have high poverty rates. When you segregate communities and a lack of support allows poverty to decimate livelihoods and socioeconomic mobility, it creates problems -- this goes for all races and religions.
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Yup, it's why I think minority Muslim populations fair much better in countries like the United States and Singapore. And you get the whole swath of Muslim ideology in these societys - from the extremely conservative to the super liberal.
 
Bollocks said:
So for all the people telling how oppressive that is to woman that they can't wear want they want, is this ok?
1164966833.jpg
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It's not "ok", but it's not the state's role to tell a private religious organization what its members can and cannot wear. If there is change in that organization it has to come from its members. There are plenty of Muslim women who do not wear head coverings, and it's ridiculous to believe that there aren't Muslims who try to reform their religion.

Separation of church and state goes both ways.
 
jakonovski said:
And for some reason the non-white French are the ones being targeted, particularly Muslim women who are also the weakest socio-economically. Please, this is quite clearly along the same continuum of jingoism and bigotry that has spawned the anti-Islamic far right parties in Europe.
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You have to understand that having these kind of debates about religion is just fucking annoying to us. I'm seriously sick of it.

I'm not ok about the ban, but hearing people justify terrorism about it... it's a swimsuit.
 
Bloody_Five said:
You also have to realize that the problem lies with modern Islam.
Until the 80's Islamic societies such as Iran, Egypt, Lebanon were more or less as free as the West and women were not bothered with anything.

Example: a Egyptian beach in 64
http://egyptianstreets.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/1964beach2.jpg

More examples : http://egyptianstreets.com/2014/04/05/egypts-golden-years-in-23-vintage-photos/
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Yeah it is sad what has become of many of these places. Hopefully one day they will auto-correct themselves but until then it's up to countries that are liberal and have a vast array of freedoms to fight to keep it that way. Hence why this ban is stupid, regardless of the problems with Islam and how it treats women.
 
Audioboxer said:
Yeah it is sad what has become of many of these places. Hopefully one day they will auto-correct themselves but until then it's up to countries that are liberal and have a vast array of freedoms to fight to keep it that way. Hence why this ban is stupid, regardless of the problems with Islam and how it treats women.
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Nothing will change if you support or ignore the oppression of people.
 
I like how people are arrogant enough to claim that they know women are forced to wear it. Like how do you know that all of them want to wear a bikini instead. It's amazing how if a girl wants to sit nude she impowering yet if she decides she wants to cover herself up she's oppressed. A little anecdotall evidence my sister decided to wear the hjab at 13 nobody told her she had on the contrary we told her shr should wait a bit longer and think it through but when we came to US she wanted to take it off because she was scared that people would judge her at school and assume she's a terrorist my dad didn't object I was against it because she was doing it out of fear of other people but I bet you looking at her you would assume she's making her own choice and impowered when it's the opposite and it's that society is forcing on her there ideals
 
PdotMichael said:
Nothing will change if you support or ignore the oppression of people.
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Gotta take good care of your own country first and show the way to any immigrants coming in that you aren't like places they might be fleeing.

In fact if you ask me that is mainly all you can do. Look after your own country and advise others as best you can. We all know too often what happens when you try to force your liberal ways on other countries, usually bloodshed and war. Most of the time you just have to leave other countries to fight their own internal battles, and potentially try and offer aid to pockets of the nation as best you can not by enforcing/war.
 
Isn't secularism and liberalism all about separating church and state, and personal freedoms?

Rings a bit hollow. Seems like your opinions and ideas are fine as long as they're the same as ours.
 
JP_ said:
I'm not a fan of parents indoctrinating kids into their religion but yeah it's a pretty universal thing and I think the only way to reduce it is to be more inclusive. Let's say this ban goes through -- what do we expect the outcome to be? You think muslim women will just wear a regular bikini? My bet is they'll just stop going to the beach. Now you've further isolated them, which is simply counter-productive.

Integrated, modern societies are the best way to reduce religiousness and increase secularism. Europe has done a poor job integrating their muslim populations -- they end up with what are basically ghettos that are highly segregated and often have high poverty rates. When you segregate communities and a lack of support allows poverty to decimate livelihoods and socioeconomic mobility, it creates problems -- this goes for all races and religions.
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I agree completely but we now have these ghettos already and no way to undo them. People now don't conglomerate because of necessity but because of convenience and you can't effectively reach willingly, for lack of a better word, oppressed women w/o some form of enforcement.
This certainly isn't the right but still something has to be done.
Mandatory swimming lessons can be a pain for schools with muslim parents and because of freedom of religion they have to be accommodated in that aspect.
IIRC france already contemplated multiple times banning veils from universities before.
 
Whitephantomzx said:
I like how people are arrogant enough to claim that they know women are forced to wear it. Like how do you know that all of them want to wear a bikini instead. It's amazing how if a girl wants to sit nude she impowering yet if she decides she wants to cover herself up she's oppressed. A little anecdotall evidence my sister decided to wear the hjab at 13 nobody told her she had on the contrary we told her shr should wait a bit longer and think it through but when we came to US she wanted to take it off because she was scared that people would judge her at school and assume she's a terrorist my dad didn't object I was against it because she was doing it out of fear of other people but I bet you looking at her you would assume she's making her own choice and impowered when it's the opposite and it's that society is forcing on her there ideals
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Serious question:
why is your sister okay with covering her head?
Does she realize that this means that she is not the equal of man?

Why is it always the women?
Why wouldn't men cover themselves for a change?
 
Good. Not ideal, but something needs to be done about retarded-ass religious oppression of women into making them wear clothes with the purpose of hiding them and their bodies from society, straight up medieval and inexcusable in this day and age.

At least this doesn't tell them what to wear, tells them what to not wear. Big difference. Possibilities are still countless, just like for everyone else. Just don't wear a symbol of hatred against women, seems fair to me.
 
m_shortpants said:
Isn't secularism and liberalism all about separating church and state, and personal freedoms?

Rings a bit hollow. Seems like your opinions and ideas are fine as long as they're the same as ours.
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But aren't countries large gatherings of people who share the same core values and decided to form a society?
 
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