That is not dissimilar from how a bit better PR would have made that statement in a way that people could. It hold it against the developer. Were not people wishing Murray hired such PR people?
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Reddit Compiles Definitive List of All NMS Missing Features/False Marketing +Sources
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gingerbeardman
Member
I'm wondering if their previous random seed worked well with all the procedural rules they put in place, but the one they're using since the patch is absolutely not working well with the rules at all.
XANDER CAGE
Member
gonna go with occam's razor on this one
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
If people are not having fun with the game to justify its purchase I can totally understand why they are upset with the game, but it is the feeling of "can't you stop having fun for a minute and please be upset with us about these other items" that I am sure also happened when Wii failed to deliver 1:1 mapping of user inputs at launch that made people dream of Star Wars duels instead of wrists flicking. Clearly less people are having fun with NMS than Wii Sports... amongst the other things.
But that's the thing, I'm fine with requesting that devs communicate a huge feature like mp being cut. But if I was working on NMS I wouldn't think things as small as "rivers no longer have a flow" need to be communicated and justified to the public. To me that's ridiculous. At what point is that not just asking for public access to their change log?
And at that point, would being that transparent be that easy? Sure it would be eaay on a technical level to give the public access to my change log, but the implications of that? We already have people in this thread asking HG to justify tiny little decisions to the public, I don't need that during development.
I might be coming from a position of comfort, since I didn't buy the game or really followed up on these promises in the first place. You are absolutely right to demand the game you were promised, and hopefully you will still get it via patches. So apologies if it sounded like I was disregarding people's complaints!
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Wut, please point me to one post in... well any of the NMS threads where even a single person so much as hinted that they wanted others to stop having fun and be upset...
Unless I am totally misunderstanding what you are trying to say here...
Throwaway123456789
Member
This makes no sense.
Damn, i swear that i was reading it and taking it as official PR. Really well written hahaha
First of all, let's drop that whataboutism regarding Wii Sports, that's a shit argument. If you want to make a thread about how Nintendo overpromised and under-delivered a game a decade ago, feel free to open a thread (or find some of the threads that were made on this very subject on GAF).
And I think the fact that you're seeing a lot of threads on NMS is exactly because it was a very hyped game, and it wasn't just gamers and gaming publications, Sean Murray was on Colbert, you had articles in publication like the New Yorker and The Atlantic. This is unusual for any game, and I would think probably unprecedented to a game and a developer like this. It's only natural its going to get much attention and many threads, I honestly think you would've seen similarly number of threads if the game would've won universal acclaim across the board.
Chiggs
Gold Member
Outstanding!
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Concerning the river thing, this is part of a conversation I was having earlier in the thread on the same subject,
When the devs say something is going to be in the game it is on them to make it believable not us. It's also interesting that you mention art. I am an artist. There are so many types of art. Art that you are supposed try to glean almost anything from to art that has a specific purpose.
If you as an artist are setting out to accomplish a certain goal (in this case rivers) then it's up to you to make it so believable that people think that you have succeeded. You can use whatever tricks you want as long as the end result is believable. You work according to certain standards to meet their expectations. Can't you see how many here believe that they haven't accomplished their goals with the so called "rivers" yet because they haven't met peoples expectations which where set from the standards the devs themselves set with the rest of the game as well as the advertising?
In this case I don't think they promised or advertised any special tech or anything in order to make the rivers work. But they still need to be believable or they have failed. I just don't think they are there yet and the response they could give to that would be that they are working on it and confident that it will meet expectations on how a river should act.
As for your last part. Yes. Yes it absolutely would still be easy to be transparent lol, are you kidding me?
Joelstinton14
Member
Reading through this thread makes me really uneasy and sad.
It really just seems many people are just out to revel in this, and people are looking for things to pin on Sean Murray to try and fit the narrative of him, apparently being a liar.
The fact we have a list that has things being crossed out because they are actually in the game, possibly should suggest that a) we should wait to see that they are in the game and b) that feels more like a witch hunt than having an honest discussion about this.
Not saying that developers should be held account or asked questions, but some of the stuff may have been in the game , and removed for good reason. They probably had working systems in place for certain 'missing' features. Feature cutting is a part of game development, every game goes through it, and if you looked at previous game trailers or developer interviews for games out now, you could probably compile a list for those games too.
Unfortunately for No man sky, it development story as been quite public - that is a) down to them, but also because b) the games concept is so damn cool that we all wanted more.
All i'm saying is that this feels more like a typical gamer tantrum/witchunt/outrage for a game that was always going to disappoint some, or upset others because of the nature of its exclusivity.
And to throw accusations of peoples character (i.e liar, all the memes, peter molyneux comparisons) is really low, and for me just adds to the toxicity of the community.
I could maybe agree with some of the points in this thread - in fact i do, but it just feels like people are revelling in this rather than being upset that the game is missing certain features.
It really just seems many people are just out to revel in this, and people are looking for things to pin on Sean Murray to try and fit the narrative of him, apparently being a liar.
The fact we have a list that has things being crossed out because they are actually in the game, possibly should suggest that a) we should wait to see that they are in the game and b) that feels more like a witch hunt than having an honest discussion about this.
Not saying that developers should be held account or asked questions, but some of the stuff may have been in the game , and removed for good reason. They probably had working systems in place for certain 'missing' features. Feature cutting is a part of game development, every game goes through it, and if you looked at previous game trailers or developer interviews for games out now, you could probably compile a list for those games too.
Unfortunately for No man sky, it development story as been quite public - that is a) down to them, but also because b) the games concept is so damn cool that we all wanted more.
All i'm saying is that this feels more like a typical gamer tantrum/witchunt/outrage for a game that was always going to disappoint some, or upset others because of the nature of its exclusivity.
And to throw accusations of peoples character (i.e liar, all the memes, peter molyneux comparisons) is really low, and for me just adds to the toxicity of the community.
I could maybe agree with some of the points in this thread - in fact i do, but it just feels like people are revelling in this rather than being upset that the game is missing certain features.
TeddyShardik
Banned
I'm not asking people to be upset when they aren't. I'm asking them to not go "So what? I don't see the problem."
The same way people shouldn't automatically call the game itself bad based only on its marketing.
The Silver
Member
the only reason shit like "rivers flowing" is being brought it up is because Sean and HG chose to the remain silent on the main MP issue.
Because that wasn't nipped in the bud the issue of the game's "promises" kept growing, the defenders and everyone else started having it out and thus the floodgates opened.
I can get my 8 hours in 20 minutes!
brandonh83
Banned
Noooo kidding. Rest of your post seems on point to me.
lol, Panajev2001a going for the gold in mental gymnastics
BTW, that Atlantic article is so bizarre, are any of these claims true? Aside from the debunked skyboxes...
The Atlantic said:
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fair enough, I cannot blame you for that as that is a reasonable stance. I am going right now for not assuming malevolent intent but perhaps naivety and stupidity in presenting the argument when you are not at a pub, but talking to the press and thus requiring a bit more respect for the audience who will hear your words and cannot ask you follow up questions. Interesting how gaming press and the tons of hands on did not ever even ask or try to test those assumptions and we had to wait for the game to go live for people to actually check post purchase, but previews and hands on are generally meant to drive preorders in most cases I fear and the press is a bit afraid of losing pre release access if they do venture too far.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
So they even lied in the frigging patch notes?
Come on man.......
Imagine this was EA, Ubi or. basically anyone else doing this.....
I think we can still call it a big deal, especially because Sean hasn't been courteous with the audience, and he publicly talked about things which clearly weren't in the game (with bigger devs items on that change list would never have been mentioned in the first place).
But I agree these changes are quality of life improvements, they wouldn't affect the core loop or experience in general very much.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fair enough on both accounts.
At least we've finally found the game that can properly divide NeoGAF. Sure, we've had some divisive shit go down, but NMS is pretty much unprecedented in both quality and quantity of contention.
PSA: this is a pretty good game to play when you are really stoned and don't care about anything except entering/exiting a planet's atmosphere or looking at funny creatures. Fucking great then.
PSA: this is a pretty good game to play when you are really stoned and don't care about anything except entering/exiting a planet's atmosphere or looking at funny creatures. Fucking great then.
As someone who is kicking themselves for paying $60 for this, I wish I had done the same.
AFMichel
Neo Member
But the discussion about the demo that was pretended to be random and proved to be scripted is about E3 2015. You didn't even bother to watch the video to know what to defend.
For whatever reason, I keep seeing people talk about price and No Man's Sky. Is $60 really offensive? I mean, I've spent that on plenty of short games and if the experience is enjoyable, isn't that what matters?
What determines a fair price? I dislike the idea that a game should be priced lower based on team size or the amount of content. That just encourages bloated sandbox type experiences.
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
And this is the real issue. Purple should probably refrain from preordering a game or buying day one, until they are satisfied the games represents their expectations and value scale. Don't believe anything you hear during development as the very nature of development is the game changes for various reasons. If something is then on the back of the box and doesn't appear in the game then by all means tear the publisher a new one and demand your money back.
hemo memo
You can't die before your death
But it's easy to inform your customers with what you could and couldn't achieve of yours and your team vision before release. Not to let us figure out after paying full price. Maybe it is true that you could be under NDA of your own game because Sony handled the marketing?
While he is still making games, Aliens CM did poorly and completely ruined any sort of chance they had with Sega again and several other publishers.
It also destroyed a lot of goodwill they had with Gamers. While Battleborn wouldn't have been saved, if their last few games weren't cheap cash ins with pissing on their customers. I would say it would have been received just a bit better.
Next time he sells a game, this will be brought up every single time and for good reason. Just like it is with Pitchfork, because there will be no goodwill in the community.
metareferential
Member
This is a good list that will definitely help Hello Games patching everything back in xD
That name triggers me. Pitchford is probably the one biggest red flag for me. It's the sole reason I didn't pick up BaB.
Sean is pretty high on the list tho, with all the promises.
Jesus Christ!!!!
Sean Murray knows no bounds. I wonder what the rest of the devs think of his bullshit?
This guy really needed someone to stop him when he started talking.
I read posts of people thinking he can fix this game but how on earth can he?
Is it even possible? I've seen how Kernel Space runs on console and is the NMS that exists in Sean's head not trying to achieve more than that?
I think it's largely down to him being the sole face of the game, being thrust into the spotlight like never before and what seems like a lack of media training, when you watch some of his first interviews on this game he is clearly not comfortable in front of the camera. It's not and excuse per say and just my reading of him and his body launguage and breaking of speech etc. I honestly think we the buying public carry a bit of this too, we live in a hype driven world and some people got way to carried away here, every time I felt myself getting carried away I reminded myself the size of the team there, we arnt all game devs but just using a bit of common sense would tell you a team so small simply couldn't deliver on every bit of hype.
Joelstinton14
Member
Isn't this going down a pretty dangerous path though? To the point where a developer will have to remember everything they ever said about a game and when a feature doesn't make the cut, have to make a public announcement that said feature isn't in the game?
We're quite lucky in that we probably see more of a product development and have access to game developers (via social media) than other entertainment medium. We like the fact we can have this one to one interaction with them, but when they make mistakes we become.... furious with them?
Thanks, updated the OP.
Cheers!
I've been playing 8 days straight on my ps4. Had about 8 or 9 crashes a day. The game was fun, but for the past few days i'm feeling that the itch that nms gave me is slowly fading. I'm just gonna wait and see what the update will bring. Since Sean is hyping about it on his twitter page. If there are no improvements in the upcoming patch, then it's bye bye nms, and hello games will be on my blacklist. I really believed Sean, i really did..........
I think it's rather simple. The game was hyped by Sean etc on a bunch of pie in the sky promises. From the very first reveal the hype surrounding NMS was immense.
From then on each interview with anyone at Hello Games became the textbook case of "How Awesome is NMS? So awesome". Each interview in isolation isn't too bad but put them together and you really do reach quite epic levels of Molyneux.
The media and potential buyers lapped it up of course so the cycle continued. At the end of the day Hello Games job is to create and sell games and they done the latter beautifully. The only problem is that they over sold and under delivered. You can't get away with that.
NMS is a fine game. Once I become a dad ( less than 3 weeks!) it's on my list of games to really get stuck into. I'm a card carrying member of the UK Dev fan club and will always celebrate our devs gaining worldwide support but in this case. Sean and his team really really need to accept that they written cheques they couldn't cash.
It can be argued that they really were naive and said whatever their dreams and ambitions for NMS were but surely they knew they were creating a huge level of hype and thus potentially a tonne of cash? Damping down the hype would've hurt their wallet and frankly the media doing their job after the fact, again doesn't help.
Jim Sterling is spot on about the hype cycle. This is a perfect example of why we need to break it.
Completely agreed. I am in the "burn them all" camp at this point, but I am trying to be empathetic. I am sitting on a $60 Steam purchase I can't get refunded because 2 hours is not enough time to give a universe a chance.
I literally played past my refund threshold because I wanted to give it a real chance. It let me down in almost every way.
I'm not sure we'll ever know, but there is obviously a reason why there is such a disparity between what we were 'sold' and what we actually got, did the team over-reach?, were they canjooled into bigging the title up by Sony?, and then there is the delay and the copyright claims regarding Superformula.
Yes, I know a lot of people are enjoying it, but that doesn't negate the fact that the developer was deliberately hazy on many of the aspects (and bare faced fabrication, or at the least exaggeration).
I guess this just reinforces the point that no one should pre-order, and everyone should take a developers claim with huge pinches of salt.
Yes, I know a lot of people are enjoying it, but that doesn't negate the fact that the developer was deliberately hazy on many of the aspects (and bare faced fabrication, or at the least exaggeration).
I guess this just reinforces the point that no one should pre-order, and everyone should take a developers claim with huge pinches of salt.
