AFMichel
Neo Member
It was removed by the op as well as his account.
If the mods would have removed it, it yould have said "removed" instead.
At least I think it works that way :S
Reddit Compiles Definitive List of All NMS Missing Features/False Marketing +Sources
- Thread starter 213372bu
- Start date
It was removed by the op as well as his account.
If the mods would have removed it, it yould have said "removed" instead.
At least I think it works that way :S
Just my guess, but I would imagine at this point Murray really can't say anything that people won't view as PR spin, or whatever. As one of the programmers on the game, he's probably decided that, at this point, he has to put nose to grindstone and actually get some of the changes people want in their hands as soon as possible rather than anything else.
Of course there's a possibility he's just sitting there with dollar bill signs in his eyes with a goofy smile as his game prints money.
But c'mon, when things blow up this much, judging from past scenarios of "visionaries" not delivering, I think we can all agree it's a time for action moreso than apologies.
Well, I mean they are being held accountable just through this outcry. Anyone who felt they were lied to should certainly think twice about believing what they say during development in the future.
If someone really felt misled they could try reporting it or suing but, honestly, I don't see it going through. I mean that kind of thing happens all the time in software development - it's not right but it is what is is, in some cases it's unavoidable because software development can be so volatile.
TheVoidDragon
Member
The problem is it's just the very basic interpretation of what was said that's in the game, quite a significant amount of the specifics aren't there. You can say "Well the game delivers on the core of what it said it would be" but when that's referring to very broad features that really can't be 'wrong' unless the entire game genre changes, pretty much anything along those lines would support that.
I've seen people try to defend it with stuff like "It said it would be an exploration and survival game, that's what we got, so it fulfills all expectations!"...well of course it still is those things. Assigning expectations to the game that are extremely vague and using that to try to say it delivered on those things is not a good thing. It's the specifics of what it's explained as that are important, and in this case a huge amount of what was promised is just not there. That doesn't mean the game delivered what it said it would be.
TheSpoiler
Member
One of the "actions" could be explaining where multiplayer is at, actually.
And actions don't help your brand if you don't have a message before them. Coming out of nowhere and saying, "hey dudes, I made this sick patch for you all" after you've pissed off a bunch of your consumers is dumb.
The dangerous thing to me is letting developers make any claims they want and then getting no come back from that. Its false advertising its snake oil salesmen, whether or not the person knows it at the time.
I dont believe this Sean person, did all this out of malice or trying to manipulate the hype to sell more of his game. But this situation is almost exactly the same as Molyneux, because the guy believes all his own hype and is really nice, he gets a free pass. But it doesnt matter what their intent is though. The outcome matters and that is a false representation of the product. And most games subsist on pre-orders.
Its not hard to keep your sales pitch in line with what is in the game. I mean you could even make some claims for what you want to be in the game, but you should make it clear that they are your speculations and that they may not work out in the end.
I think this sort of thing is ruining the gaming industry. I've heard so many people saying they are fed up with the hype of games and that none of them live up to it which is true. This guy has basically ruined(maybe?) his game which is an ok game(barring errors and performance), by all the nonsensical claims he made for it.
I dont know if its whether games are in this different realm to other media or something, but you dont see hype quite as inflated and then deflated as you do in gaming.
Mephisto40
Member
Like I said in my previous post, he's most likely been advised to not say a single thing atm
The problem he's now got is that anything he does say is going to be torn to shreds, and will be closely followed by thousands of other people trying to get his attention because he's not replied to their issue specifically
There are currently so many things people have got issues with that it would literally take them all week to reply to everything and at the moment they are trying to get the update done to stop people complaining quiet so much.
People aren't going to be happy unless they get answers directly from Sean either, and he's probably neck deep in trying to get this update out to shut the people at Sony up who are in uproar about the amount of issues they've got in their game they've published and piled millions into. Pleasing their investors is what their priority is going to be currently, not replying to attention seeking man-children on the internet.
CyclopsRock
Member
I agree - I basically think this (rather than, say, death threats) is the correct way of going about it. It just seems weird when people say "Well, they're a small team, what did you expect? Didn't you know there was only ten of them?" As if that matters.
It might be so, but again, when you have a lot of pissed off people, a lot of them -- the ones that gunk up the works, moreso than reasonable people like you or me -- are going to take anything he says at this point as not only insincere (after all, he's a big liar now), but utilize it to just further add fuel to the fire here. "Hey dudes, here's a sick patch" might be annoying and upset people after some absence, but it's also something tangible that we can see; it's not a promise of a better future from a serial liar.
While I would like some form of reaction from him (granted, I loved the game, but I also recognize it's not what it was said to be), I'd accept getting an apology ad hoc once there's actually a fix in place for a lot of the more pressing issues.
I think it is important that we as a community engage in a good faith, honest discourse about the issues that have been raised by this game, whether intentionally or not on behalf of Murray or Hello Games or Sony or the fans.
As someone who pre-ordered and is still enjoying the game for what it is on PS4, I do believe that there are serious questions that need to be asked and answered about the game and Murray's handling of the marketing and press side of things and think this thread and the original Reddit post, for the most part, is helping to facilitate that kind of meaningful discussion.
As someone who pre-ordered and is still enjoying the game for what it is on PS4, I do believe that there are serious questions that need to be asked and answered about the game and Murray's handling of the marketing and press side of things and think this thread and the original Reddit post, for the most part, is helping to facilitate that kind of meaningful discussion.
A very level headed and diplomatic post. I like it, and I sincerely hope that he addresses this stuff soon, and that Sean doesn't become the next he shall not be named...
TeddyShardik
Banned
Sorry, but if a straight and honest answer to a simple question ruins your career you fucked up, not the people asking the question. That's excluding the morons sending death threats and whatnot of course.
I think you should expect from 10 people the things they tell you you can do.
If you can't do things, they shouldn't tell you can do thise things because this is what happens.
DrROBschiz
Member
Well, the sensible thing to do is come clean before the game hits the shelves, but obviously the hit on sales is a bigger consideration than transparency.
crazepharmacist
Member
Why was the post deleted!?
Pre release, sure molyneux hyped and oversold features. But usually before release he would set things straight, if I recall. Thats why I always gave him a pass. Plus his games were at least usually unique and he made some amazing games early on.
Sean Murray is a different beast and as he still has not apologized or come out with the truth, even a week after release... Well I will never trust a word he says ever again, enthusiasm or not. He's clearly not an honest developer.
eot
Banned
Your posting is not improving mate
The only thing I've got a problem with (and I love NMS) is the fact that they gave us trailers last month that had stuff that's not in the game. This irritates me to no end. It's blatant false advertisement and shouldn't be allowed whatsoever. Other than that the game is fine and I'm probably closing in on 80 hours now.
And there you go again.. Perhaps ask yourself if you're part of the problem by dragging everything relatable, including legitimate questions, into a polarized zone. But no, everybody else are man-children, of course..
GrizzleBoy
Banned
The reason it looks like that is the levels people are being pushed to by dismissive fanboys and invisible devs when it comes to pointing out these things that went missing with no warning.
Instead of the people responsible standing up and addressing anything, they've gone totally awol and left the community to argue over whether people were expecting this they were told about, or whether they were just living in their own hype.
So people have to go trawling through all interviews, showcases and what not to back up their claims about missing stuff, because the devs will not recognise any of it, and the community won't stand to hear any of it.
People are being made to take such a strong stand due to the way the devs have behaved. It's literally their fault. From beginning to end. If they didn't want people to be upset, they should've made some kind of effort to not upset them, proactively and retroactively.
I dunno man, I don't think "basic interpretation" comes into it. What I said in my post ('travelling to/on huge planets seamlessly, finding alien creatures, exploring a galaxy') – these are the main things that Murray always harped on, that he said the game "would be" to use your parlance, especially noting the scale of the galaxy which they absolutely delivered on (if not the quality of the galaxy). He mentioned other things in passing/when prompted - the multiplayer, the depth of the simulation, etc - but those things weren't the core experience which he talked about every time and which the game blurbs described. He said as much re multiplayer - i.e. that it was an incidental mechanic - although he did suggest that the simulation depth was important to the game, and that evidently got the slice.
Shit, what was in those trailers that wasn't in the final game? I know plenty of previous trailers have shown stuff that didn't make it in, but the one's from last month?
Nope - he set things straight after release, never before. And the extent to which he disingenuously hyped and oversold his game was on another level from Murray.
However, he did apologise, and that is certainly more than Murray/HG have given us.
Yeah, basically. If HG/Murray had apologised straight up or clarified what was/wasn't in the game, none of this "witch hunt" would have happened because we would have had an answer. People wouldn't have had to go trawling into old interviews to call him up on every line.
It might have been embarassing for them but it would have saved a massive load of grief on both sides..
OuterLimits
Member
I haven't seen a single bouncing pineapple in my 30+ hours playing
I saw one. Definitely one of the cooler things. I like seeing the bouncing creatures.
My biggest bummer besides the glitches and crashes is the lack of variety with many of the plants. Sure, some have unique looks but the vast majority look like the plants I just scanned on previous planets.
I did land on a completely barren(well it had some very rare mushrooms) planet recently which was fantastic.
Going into the game I thought planets with life would be rare, yet it turns out the barren ones are.
I'm definitely not seeing some of the really cool variation they showed in previews and trailers.
Still enjoying it though, but hopefully updates really add a significant amount to the game.
Mephisto40
Member
The thing is, all the legitimate questions have already been asked
This whole thing has stopped being
'Lets ask hello games why things aren't in the game that were said to be during development'
and has turned into
'Sean, answer me now otherwise I'll make another youtube video making you look stupid, this isn't going to end until you answer, I'll make your life a living hell unless you directly respond to me right now, pay me attention now Sean, NOW. Let all my youtube subscribers see you have directly replied to my comments! Apologise to me personally!'
This isn't necessarily what is going on in here, but it's definitely what's going on on reddit right now, and it's quite sad tbh. It's gone from people with legitimate issues to people who are doing this purely for attention. They don't actually care about answers any more.
What bugs me is this, Sean has been intentionally vague on what feature's will make it in. He peppered in tidbits here and there and that is the list you see. When pressed he never fully explained the magnitude of each feature but rather played it off as one big surprise. He was lying to himself as much as us. This backlash is warranted.
It's understandable that things can change during development. Some planned features may end up being not feasible or not fun or you just run out of time to implement them.
A good practice would be to only announce features once they appear to be working within the game. Ideally you would also visually demonstrate them to avoid imaginations running wild, but not doing so can obviously benefit hype.
If I were optimistic about the dev's intentions, I would guess some features were only implemented in the staged demos and the devs thought they would be able to implement them into the procedural generation later. Evidently they were unable to do so in a way that can replicate the demos or the promises that were made.
Yeah I noticed this while hunting for barren planets for the platinum. It's at least 50-50 although leaning towards life being more common.
TheCanisDirus
Member
One of my biggest gripes with the game (besides the constant crashing and seeing the same stuff over and over after 4-6 hours with repeating assets) is the inability to simply travel space, from star system to star system without using the galactic map.
I want to travel wherever i'd like; however, the "map" seems to be little more than a visual representation of all numbered systems. i.e. a coat of paint over a list where you select a new system. You select your system's generated number (star dot on the galactic map) and your local play space (current star system that you never really leave) is re-drawn using their algorithms to fit whatever they've programed.
I dont think this "galaxy" actually exists. I could be completely wrong as Sean's been asked can you fly directly from system to system and he's said yes but nobody had done it yet - Im not sure if that's possible in game because it would take so long as you cannot "free-warp" to anywhere you choose. I think we all have this local playspace of a 1-6 (or whatever the max is) planet system that is just rearranged over and over as we warp giving us the illusion of a traversable universe.
Though in the end i'm not devastated about this travel mechanic as there isn't much to see after a few hours. :/
I want to travel wherever i'd like; however, the "map" seems to be little more than a visual representation of all numbered systems. i.e. a coat of paint over a list where you select a new system. You select your system's generated number (star dot on the galactic map) and your local play space (current star system that you never really leave) is re-drawn using their algorithms to fit whatever they've programed.
I dont think this "galaxy" actually exists. I could be completely wrong as Sean's been asked can you fly directly from system to system and he's said yes but nobody had done it yet - Im not sure if that's possible in game because it would take so long as you cannot "free-warp" to anywhere you choose. I think we all have this local playspace of a 1-6 (or whatever the max is) planet system that is just rearranged over and over as we warp giving us the illusion of a traversable universe.
Though in the end i'm not devastated about this travel mechanic as there isn't much to see after a few hours. :/
allintospace
Member
Has everyone calmed down yet, or does the fire still rise?
Pestilence11
Member
Especially when the patch is only bug fixes and game crashing fixes. Not saying that those things aren't the most important but an ambiguous tweet "were going to make people happy" amidst all the controversy is terrible PR in my opinion. "Hey we're working on some fixes for bugs and crashing" is a more sensible tweet.
TheCanisDirus
Member
Fire? This is nowhere near as bad as it could be or is on other parts of the net IMHO. Just some smoke here.
It's all in the reddit post. I'll dig it up. Like I said, advertising stuff like that is wrong but I will admit the game is still fantastic!
allintospace
Member
There is no smoke without fire. However I imagine GAF is tame in comparison.
Chris Metal
Member
Game is wonderful fun.
Pestilence11
Member
He kept saying we don't want to spoil too much of the game, but it turns out there wasn't really anything more to it to spoil, besides the center.
What gave people reason to believe the features talked about were in the game is they denied NPCs even existing until they were complete and talked several times about not promising things that weren't planned. That's why all the things missing comes out of left field, at least for me.
The reason people are looking for every little thing that was said about the game that turns out to not be in the finished product is because of Sean's and Hello Games' vague and blatantly dishonest statements about the game to drum up massive hype. Anybody that claims that Sean didn't let imaginations run wild about the game on purpose is lying to themselves. Now that he has practically gone into hiding is further damning.
I think gamers have been lied to enough to see the difference between a dev showing features in a video that are not the focus of what they are trying to demonstrate not making the eventual final cut and a dev making vague statements in interviews over and over that have never been shown in any demonstration and knowingly using this to drum up hype without ever correcting themselves or interviewers that it won't happen before release.
Big time interviews have talking points discussed before they are interviewed. Which to me indicates that HG and Sean wanted these features talked about. It's dishonest, and its the reason why people are going over everything said with a microscope. Most devs have nothing to worry about.
I think gamers have been lied to enough to see the difference between a dev showing features in a video that are not the focus of what they are trying to demonstrate not making the eventual final cut and a dev making vague statements in interviews over and over that have never been shown in any demonstration and knowingly using this to drum up hype without ever correcting themselves or interviewers that it won't happen before release.
Big time interviews have talking points discussed before they are interviewed. Which to me indicates that HG and Sean wanted these features talked about. It's dishonest, and its the reason why people are going over everything said with a microscope. Most devs have nothing to worry about.
Jacksinthe
Banned
My thoughts:
I feel that everything that's been talked about this game can fall into one of 4 camps...
1) You haven't seen X or Y yet. I think this goes without saying. Stuff might be there, but maybe it hasn't been crossed. Fair enough.
2) Iteration. Things happen in gamedev that change all the time even to mere days before release (hello day 1 patches). Pretty much every game is a constant iteration. Put it to you this way: games are never released, they slip through your fingers. Fair enough.
3) Things that were supposed to be, but never were. This also happens, but to a far smaller extent than iteration. This can be to scope creep, team ability and size, etc. This also straddles the line between innocent "welp, we couldn't" and outright false claims. You have to know a few years in development what you are capable of and talk about features you know are a 90% lock, at the least. This straddles the line between innocent and mischievous. If it's innocent, you need to remove yourself as creative director due to lack of knowledge of your team's capabilities - as a lead, it's your job to know.
4) Outright lies. This is the stinger. It's not one certain buzzword or direct quote, rather, body language. Watching some interviews where Sean addresses things like playing with friends (while a rare occurrence, which is fair), you can read his tells too easily. This is the point where I stopped caring about the game. When Sean is asked questions you can see him shift posture, drop his head, look away and answer questions he had already answered before and talked about with hesitation. He might be a quirky guy but everyone communicates through body language. Time and again his answers which should be spring-loaded and direct, are hesitant at the same time conclusive. This is a red flag. I believe these are the most egregious cases as they were used to sell the product. If you watch some interviews when he is asked questions which sound cool as hell you can see how he picks up on the excitement of the interviewer and rolls with it in an effort to not say "no" to shit that is, quite literally, expected in a game like this but somehow never came to fruition. Sean may appear shy or quirky or whatever but I feel much of that comes from his inability to shoot straight, which appears to be his modus operandi. I feel this is a reason Sony appeared to be distancing themselves nearing the launch of the game.
I believe points 1 and 2 are easily looked over. Game development is game development. Point 3 is on the edge but without conclusive evidence so you can't logically start hammering nails into that particular coffin. Point 4 is a definite. We know he said stuff that isn't true, on more than one occasion in more than one interview. I feel 4 fits in line with Hello Games and Joe Danger times two. Looking at their history paints a much clearer picture of what is happening now.
I think criticism is definitely in order. I'm not personally going to go off the deep end to do it but I am disappointed as a dev who believes in transparency. I won't be purchasing their games in the future and will ultimately write them off and let them fade away because this third time is not the charm. The game still has its moments as their previous games but their lack of project management, inability to iterate on ideas and flat-out lies make this a difficult pill to swallow.
I feel that everything that's been talked about this game can fall into one of 4 camps...
1) You haven't seen X or Y yet. I think this goes without saying. Stuff might be there, but maybe it hasn't been crossed. Fair enough.
2) Iteration. Things happen in gamedev that change all the time even to mere days before release (hello day 1 patches). Pretty much every game is a constant iteration. Put it to you this way: games are never released, they slip through your fingers. Fair enough.
3) Things that were supposed to be, but never were. This also happens, but to a far smaller extent than iteration. This can be to scope creep, team ability and size, etc. This also straddles the line between innocent "welp, we couldn't" and outright false claims. You have to know a few years in development what you are capable of and talk about features you know are a 90% lock, at the least. This straddles the line between innocent and mischievous. If it's innocent, you need to remove yourself as creative director due to lack of knowledge of your team's capabilities - as a lead, it's your job to know.
4) Outright lies. This is the stinger. It's not one certain buzzword or direct quote, rather, body language. Watching some interviews where Sean addresses things like playing with friends (while a rare occurrence, which is fair), you can read his tells too easily. This is the point where I stopped caring about the game. When Sean is asked questions you can see him shift posture, drop his head, look away and answer questions he had already answered before and talked about with hesitation. He might be a quirky guy but everyone communicates through body language. Time and again his answers which should be spring-loaded and direct, are hesitant at the same time conclusive. This is a red flag. I believe these are the most egregious cases as they were used to sell the product. If you watch some interviews when he is asked questions which sound cool as hell you can see how he picks up on the excitement of the interviewer and rolls with it in an effort to not say "no" to shit that is, quite literally, expected in a game like this but somehow never came to fruition. Sean may appear shy or quirky or whatever but I feel much of that comes from his inability to shoot straight, which appears to be his modus operandi. I feel this is a reason Sony appeared to be distancing themselves nearing the launch of the game.
I believe points 1 and 2 are easily looked over. Game development is game development. Point 3 is on the edge but without conclusive evidence so you can't logically start hammering nails into that particular coffin. Point 4 is a definite. We know he said stuff that isn't true, on more than one occasion in more than one interview. I feel 4 fits in line with Hello Games and Joe Danger times two. Looking at their history paints a much clearer picture of what is happening now.
I think criticism is definitely in order. I'm not personally going to go off the deep end to do it but I am disappointed as a dev who believes in transparency. I won't be purchasing their games in the future and will ultimately write them off and let them fade away because this third time is not the charm. The game still has its moments as their previous games but their lack of project management, inability to iterate on ideas and flat-out lies make this a difficult pill to swallow.
While at it, check also the trailers on Steam, they are also very honest in describing the game you buy.
benicillin
Banned
The armchair psychology and hysterics in this thread are kind of insane. Assumptions being thrown around everywhere.
Jacksinthe
Banned
TheCanisDirus
Member
Plenty of things reach smoke-point before ignition. You can get lots of smoke and no fire in a low oxygen environment etc. ;P I get what you're saying though. Reddit is much more frenzied than Gaf.
benicillin
Banned
Some of the general sentiments of this thread are ascribing motives to Sean as if this was all some great con job that he's been desperately trying to pull off, inferring that Sony wants nothing to do with him, implying that he's been lying about everything since day one. "BUT LOOK AT HIS BODY LANGUAGE!"
It's hysterics. Point to the list of stuff missing from the game, that's fine, but the moment you start assuming you know what went on behind the scenes or ascribing motives to other people that you literally can't prove except through assumptions and conjecture, you've lost the plot I think.
I assume he means the user reviews
Which is weird because I remember it being sold as a 90 - 10 balance towards the barren, with the more interesting stuff being towards the centre.
Perhaps 90% of 18 billion being barren resulted in a properly dull game with very little in terms of mechanics variation to speak of.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Having an absolute blast with this game at the moment, but the removal of features always sucks.
Hopefully some of this will be patched in over time. The game seems to be enjoying some huge success, so that should mean we get healthy amounts of updates.
Hopefully some of this will be patched in over time. The game seems to be enjoying some huge success, so that should mean we get healthy amounts of updates.
PedroLumpy
Member
Don't judge either side of the argument by the craziest people involved. Otherwise it just looks like 2 groups of people spouting death threats at everyone.