DoctorFling
Member
Outside of their Star Wars stuff Marvel comics are pretty much dead to me. Everything I've read in the past few years has sucked and from what my friends have told me Civil War 2 is utter trash.
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io9: Civil War II Is Ruining Captain Marvel
- Thread starter LordOfLore
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Ulysses' visions are accurate. Without intervention these things come to pass. Sometimes, even with intervention these things come to pass. To date it actually has been 100% accurate with the sole exception of
. Up until that point, beyond a reasonable doubt, she was justified in intervening.
What makes her unlikable is how she's approaching it. It's militant. It sacrifices human rights and freedoms for the sake of protection.
What it doesn't take into account is the magnitude of her responsibility. Carol is Earth's representative in intergalactic affairs and is thus responsible for Earth's well being. She's the leader of her own crew and part of a team dealing with cosmic level problems. She has a great deal more to think about than Tony does.
While it doesn't justify how stubborn she or how flawed she is in her execution, it certainly offers a different view into why she might be behaving this way.
the briefcase
What makes her unlikable is how she's approaching it. It's militant. It sacrifices human rights and freedoms for the sake of protection.
What it doesn't take into account is the magnitude of her responsibility. Carol is Earth's representative in intergalactic affairs and is thus responsible for Earth's well being. She's the leader of her own crew and part of a team dealing with cosmic level problems. She has a great deal more to think about than Tony does.
While it doesn't justify how stubborn she or how flawed she is in her execution, it certainly offers a different view into why she might be behaving this way.
BKatastrophe
Member
There's been a lot of great stuff in the past few years and CW2 has been surprisingly solid.
Here's what I got:
So far, the three major visions have technically been true: a Celestial did show up, Thanos did attempt to take a Cosmic Cube (although it was only in development and not an actual cube yet), and Bruce was indeed about to Hulk out. The Celestial showing up is fairly tame, and they did stop Thanos at the cost of Rhodey's life and almost She-Hulk's
The problem is that Hulk was the tipping point. It was a self-made prophecy. Bruce probably wouldn't have Hulk'd out had every single Avenger, X-Man, and Inhuman show up on his doorstep. This is the major tipping point, because it's the first time that we see people other than Tony genuinely questioning what's been going on. So Tony, who managed to actually uncover how Ulysses' powers work (unlike everyone else) found out that Ulysses actually affects the visions himself. This prompts pretty much everyone to go, "Well I dunno, Carol. Maybe we shouldn't?"
Now, that's key, because She-Hulk has also just woken up and is incredibly distraught. She was nearly killed, her cousin is dead, and the man who killed her cousin got off clean. We don't see it, but I'm pretty sure Carol got it pretty rough from Jennifer as far as verbal beatdowns go. So now, finally, Carol snaps. Her lover's dead. Her best friend probably hates her, or at the very least is in great pain because of her. One of the OG Avengers is dead because of her. Instead of wallowing though, what does she do? She goes all in. See, technically the visions were true, but not all of the elements were under Carol's control. The Celestial worked perfectly, but let's look at the last two: Thanos is ridiculously powerful and has always been a wildcard. She had no idea that Rhodey and Jenny were going to get tagged and to be fair, that event wasn't her fault, though she certainly should have snagged more folk than that. It was an irresponsibility and she knows that. So she goes, "Well Hulk is a major threat. Let's go all in." Except now she's created an overwhelming scenario: Banner is freaking because "Hey look at ALL OF THE EVERYONE," an event that causes Hawkeye to take the shot. Again, a scenario where Carol lost control. So she doubles down.
She's literally gone the reverse of Tony. Tony started this in an out-of-control, overemotional state. Carol kept a secret from him that may have allowed him to keep Rhodey, his best friend, alive. Early on, he's acting out of grief. He thinks it's his fault that Rhodey is dead, either because he wasn't there, or maybe because Rhodey was using an old armor. Carol has done the opposite: she has been operating on a more rational level, but things have slowly spun out of control. Now Tony's in the right and Carol's in the wrong.
TLDR: Carol's arc has made sense to me, and I don't see how it's ruining her character. Not yet. And I'm still waiting for an explanation about the Celestial. My theory is that Ulysses has been playing them all. He took out three major game changers.
I thought that he was one of the ones pushing her back in his Avengers days. Wasn't Bendis the person who got Brian Reed in at Marvel before he went to work on the Halo games with 343?
Actually, that reminds me. I hate most of his work on event comics, but Bendis deserves props for using his name to get a lot of lesser known writers started at Marvel.
I can totally see this. More and more in the tie-ins we're seeing the "self-fulfilling prophecy" piece play out. And since Tony described it as Ulysses absorbing data via energy, who's to say when he has a vision he's not also inherently manipulating those energies based on his own unconscious bias. Without this additional piece of info, we cannot really know if the visions our profiling or not. This is more dangerous than the inaccuracy of the vision.
And on the Hulk, that makes perfect sense. That was the tipping point. You're right. It's interesting that you called out the inverted emotional states of Tony and Carol. I hadn't considered that, but it is a fascinating observation. It only spells disaster for Carol if she continues down this track.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
i have been telling people. but someone was gonna be looking like shit in civil war 2, and people expected stark
he didnt do her any favors in mighty either
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Bring back genis-vell.
Vermillion
Banned
I'm gonna guess that you're salty that Carol's getting a movie instead of Monica.One was begged to be the leader of the avengers
The other was told by Post Crossing Tony Stark and Quicksliver that she was a terrible person and get the fuck out of the Avengers
I mean come on
Secret Character
Member
This whole Civil War II event has actually led me to stop buying Marvel for a while. (Combined with cancelling Howard the Duck.) This event needs to end already so I can enjoy The Ultimates again.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
phyla too. hell bring back mar as well.
I think it is funny that this event is making the first Civil War look better.
I feel bad for those 4 movie watchers who decided to try out comics by picking this up after watching Civil War in theatres.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Just like Civil War I ruined Tony Stark.
Can we get the Russos to write comics in their downtime? They actually get how to do a difference of beliefs without completely demonising established characters
Can we get the Russos to write comics in their downtime? They actually get how to do a difference of beliefs without completely demonising established characters
I am salty marvel is pushing a terrible character cause of "Reasons"
BKatastrophe
Member
I've actually found this event to be fairly well done, honestly. I'm not much of a Carol fan, but I've found her arc to be fairly well done. I don't get the rage, nor the "lol Bendis" shots people constantly take.
Originally when it was announced, people thought it was going to be SamCap vs. Tony, so I can understand that. Afterwords, once more details came out, it's hard to believe anyone would have thought Stark was gonna be the asshole in this.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Russos got better things to do then waste their talent on Carol.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
Nah she's already getting comic relaunch #574447
Sounds like wishful thinking.
well someone got to sell in the 30ks with Aquaman
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
There's gonna be two different Iron Man. Maybe There will be two different Captain Marvels.
SargerusBR
I love Pokken!
Oh hi Slayven.
Mrs. Manky
Banned
Annnnd...
There it is. Thank you all for using your Slayven summoning powers.
Anyways, I'm totally biased.
#teammonicarambeau
#lookatcaroleatingcrackerslikesheownsthedamnplace
Coffee Dog
Banned
Carol has actually been in various constant states of amnesia/personality rebooting since she took up the captain marvel name. Everyone seems to have a different interpretation of the character, even in books running simultaneously. the only common thread is that she is an ARMY WOMAN and she solves things by PUNCHING HARD
They've been trying to get something to stick for years, some interpretation of the character that's both memorable and appeals to women readers, and now they're probably banking on the movie to do it.
Well damn. Back at 100%
Back in May before the Rebirth craziness, Aquaman #52 and Captain Marvel #5 were both in the low 20s.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
Good idea. She can be a teenager who looks up to Carol!
hodayathink
Member
Wouldn't you want the writers of Civil War for that and not the directors?
I was about to crackwise before i realize you meant 20 k in sales. I went to check and goddamn they both were barely in the top 100.
Sam Cap and Vision especially. Those books man.
And not to mention All-New Wolverine and Ultimates.
And I do love Ms. Marvel, the Miles book and Totally Awesome Hulk. They make me insanely hype for Champions.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
To be fair to Aquaman, that May issue was the last issue of that run before the reboot.
Captain Marvel is doing low 20ks in July, even though her solo book is a tie in to Marvel's big summer event in which she is a banner character.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Or calls her out on her BS.
man, and we haven't even gotten into how civil war 2 has basically set kamala's book on fire for the forseeable future
what a great event this is
Never say Marvel never does any charity work.
Nah. Kamala's best arcs so far have been Time Runs Out and Civil War II - her event books are great.
In fact, most of the tie-ins for CWII (at least the ones I read) have been good to great. Ultimates fighting over fundamental moral differences. Kamala turning on her idol. And all of the tie-ins that are essentially "Civil War was stupid, why are we doing this again?" like SamCap, Power Man and Iron Fist, and Scarlet Witch.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
How was Cap being nonsensical?
flaxknuckles
Member
gottdamn
googleplex
Member
Well Civil War 1 and AvX ruined Captain America.
Marvel just sucks at displaying a nuance disagreement. They always have try and make one side unerringly good and turn the other into mustache twirling super villains.
Marvel just sucks at displaying a nuance disagreement. They always have try and make one side unerringly good and turn the other into mustache twirling super villains.
Cyclops was right BTW
Cap came off better in Civil War than anyone on the other side.
The stuff after AvX was hilarious though. Especially his vendetta against the Illuminati for not wanting to deal with his bullshit when he didn't get to do things his own way.
Emperor_EL
Member
I wouldn't be bothered by Rhonda Reigns' undeserved push if they didn't decide that she should be Abigail Brand's boss & were kicking her out of the Ultimates.
?
Cap was not only right in Civil War 1 but also made out to be a martyr.
and in AvX Cap beat up on Gambit which, of course, is only right.
and also the small matter of mind wipes, kswis!
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