Several French cities ban Burkinis on beaches, citing "public order" concerns
- Thread starter RustyNails
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KonradLaw
Member
Let's be realistic. None of those mayors likely cares abou those muslim women. It's tourism season and after recent attacks tuorists are scared of muslims. French tourism industry already took a big hit and they're trying anything to minimize that.
Burkini ban is, as most things, about money.
I never got that impression of France, it always seemed like a country willing to do everything to preserve the French way of things and always came up with rules/laws to keep things the French way. Yeah they modernize with the times but still want to keep things French/normal.
Absolute freedom doesn't exist and we don't want extremistic view of religions
Countries like us bash us a lot for not allowing religious symbols at school but we prefer that than seeing creationism teach like a science to our kids
Herb Alpert
Banned
Burkinis are stupid but I'm afraid this isn't the good direction. The extremists must be really happy now.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
I'm not talking about crosses and yamulkes at school, schools in the US have dress codes too. I'm talking about normal people minding their own business in a public space while inobtrusively observing their own standard of modesty. That's not extremism and it's not something you ban.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Having to dress modestly isn't an essential part of religion (really all this law affects are Muslims whose populations are much more conservative generally), and I've seen plenty of Muslim girls dress like Westerners. I still don't agree with this ban because it really solves nothing and it arbitrarily restricts freedom of choice. Banning clothing just because you disagree with them is not the road I want to take.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Always the same thing.
Restraining the freedom of women pretending liberating them. And if you are a catholic nun you can easily go to the beach totally covered and nobody will say anything.
As a muslim man, i don't take my shirt off at the beach and nobody care.
Restraining the freedom of women pretending liberating them. And if you are a catholic nun you can easily go to the beach totally covered and nobody will say anything.
As a muslim man, i don't take my shirt off at the beach and nobody care.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
It certainly isn't a central tenet of Islam to dress that way (in fact, I'm pretty sure it's more Arab than Muslim,) but I think it would be disingenuous to say that this law exists for any other reason than to persecute religious and ethnic minority groups, because those are the only people that this is going to have any practical effect on.
France's motto is Liberté, égalité, fraternité, and this doesn't represent the second or the former.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Fun thing is, burkinis are actually so rare in France, that most news articles about this ban have to resort to using photos of burkini wearers from Morocco since they couldn't find photos of burkini wearers from France.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Muslims are not really representative of what is essential in the religion or not, most muslim don't pray 5 times a day and it's a religious obligation.
Dressing modestly is a religion obligation as well but it's true that many muslims don't follow this. That don't make them lesser muslims though.
hurricanes
Member
Then why did they even bother to ban it?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's part of the wave of laws against islam. First the Hijab in schools in 2004, then niqab in public space in 2010, now they are speaking about banning the hijab in the university.
The presidential election coming next year and the series of terrorist attack is just accelerating the process.
It's have to do with the two trend of secularism that exist in France, the 1905 trend which is more liberal and more about keeping the neutral identity of the state but not the individuals.
And the "Concordat" trend that is more aggressive against religion and more in-line with the most hardcore element of the french revolution.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
The handful of mayors who have banned the burkini just want to get people and the media to talk about them. It's purely to get votes and has nothing to do with morals or anything deep.
The main far-right party in France has been growing stronger and stronger over the years, to the point that there is a risk that they actually win the presidential election. Thus, many other politicians resort to using the same xenophobic ideas as the far-right (in more "subtle" ways) in order to get the racists to vote for them instead of voting for the far-right.
hurricanes
Member
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I see. Thanks for the explanation. It is truly sad to have to witness this kind of backward crap.
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I see. Thanks for the explanation. It is truly sad to have to witness this kind of backward crap.
Insane Metal
Member
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's impressive to see that here most of the people are pretty outraged against french authorities decision and it's seem almost incomprehensible for non-french to do that.
And if you go in any french discussion board, most people would support it, just as the prime minister did. So it's a very french issue. Being myself french i must say i don't understand it either.
And if you go in any french discussion board, most people would support it, just as the prime minister did. So it's a very french issue. Being myself french i must say i don't understand it either.
I was wondering the same thing, to be honest
Show me where it's only for the hijab ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fre..._and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools
Oh and the niquab is not banned only the burka ( the same burka which is banned by the german recently)
Hawaiian Punch
Neo Member
To be fair, France is not a multicultural society, nor, as far as I am aware, has it ever made any claims to be.
I could talk about how stupid forcing a dress code is for something like a goddamn beach, but the real tragedy here is that now these muslim women won't be able to go to the beach at all, which only adds another level of confinement on top of what they have to put up with.
Such progress.
Yes I'm glad there is an authority on what women should or shouldn't wear. Totally not regressive or forceful.
Let's also ban freedom of thought and expression to fight of extremist terrorism.
*round of applause*
Why wouldnt they go to beach at all? There are so many other costumes that they can wear, it is not as if you have to wear bikini to go to a beach.
The underlying issue is there is simply no way of telling if it's the woman's will or religious oppression.
But in modern society there is really no excuse for a full body veil unless it's for practical purposes; so just ban the thing everywhere. I don't see how just banning it at beaches is going to address the problem other than further isolating the women who are being oppressed.
We had a pope accept homosexuality, religions need to adapt.
But in modern society there is really no excuse for a full body veil unless it's for practical purposes; so just ban the thing everywhere. I don't see how just banning it at beaches is going to address the problem other than further isolating the women who are being oppressed.
We had a pope accept homosexuality, religions need to adapt.
I think the ban is attention seeking and posturing but let's be real here, the burkini is hardly a hot seller among Muslim women and it's possible to cover up on the beach without wearing one. It reminds me of the fuss surrounding the niqab a few years ago when no more than a couple hundred women wore it in France.
He doesn't accept homosexuality.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
No, it's the niqab. The burqa don't exist in France.
Please don't serve me this hypocrisy, you know too well that it was aimed as the hijab since the polemic was growing since the end of the 1980 about the hijab. They had to add "big cross and kipa" to don't make like they are aiming at a specific religion. The three elements have nothing in common, the hijab is not a symbol of Islam.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
So why as a man it's totally fine if i go to the beach totally covered, but a woman can't ?
I guess that choosing who will see you're body and who will not it's not a personal freedom in your book.
travisbickle
Member
I'm pretty sure women wearing a burkini are not trying to get a tan at the beach. It's something they wear in public that fulfils their religious belief, they can enjoy time with their family and not betray* their faith.
*I don't really know the right word here, what do people say who don't have sex before marriage for religious reasons?
Audioboxer
Member
You can agree with that, like I do, whilst also agreeing this ban is stupid.
It's not the way to fight the oppression women face. What is is continued exposure and integration into a society where such ridiculous clothing is not enforced, needed or worn in mass numbers. All we can hope is these women wearing such clothing on a beach have their minds start to turn the cogs that most other French women can exist without it and there is no consequence. Possibly their children born in France will also be more liberal, open minded and able to integrate with a free society and actually have a choice, not be forced.
So yeah, the ban cuts the potential for progress off at its legs and will only lead to resentment and that 1% chance of someone becoming radicalized in response. Would I prefer a world where women don't look ridiculous clad head to toe and only have a slit to see out of? Yeah. But I'd prefer that decision to come from the women in question, and I think we will start to swing back that way over time.
Who said it would be totally fine for a man? It would be rejected too in France by most of the population.
You act like burkini is the only way to be covered. France doesn't force women to be topless and in g-string on the beach you know.
iceatcs
Junior Member
If middle-east become superpowers, there won't be any more EU and US. It will be wiped out by nuked.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I go to the beach all the time with have all these body part covered, never had even a bad look for it.
The notion of "covered" should be defined by each woman individually, it's not the role of the state to do such a thing. Except in France and Iran.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Once again, burkini ban is not a law, it's not imposed by the state. Thanks for not reading the topic.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Who said it was ? Some people are calling for it. I know perfectly well it's a municipal decret. Even the Prime Minister spoke against making it a law.
Ps: The niqab ban in public space and the hijab ban and school is a state dresscode in fact.
Diprosalic
Banned
Audioboxer
Member
Oh okay, I stand corrected, face. The slit for eyes tends to be for off the beach apparel...
You're not going to convince me it isn't stupid. The bigger issue as well is how many of these women really have a choice, and how many feel forced, or are forced by religion and/or husbands/family.
I'm not on the side of the ban, but I sure as heck am not on the side of women being forced to dress stupidly either. Even those who say they 100% aren't forced, I can still critique how stupid I think their choice of clothing is. Let us not start saying clothing can have it's feelings hurt.
I agree with the ban itself because the Niqab and by extension a Burkini are a symbol of a counter-society and political islam, things that need to be activitely combated.
I think many posters who claim this ban is somehow limiting womens free will of what they want to wear are not quite seeing the full picture. Tolerating these things isn't "neutral", it's letting political islam occupy the public eye/space, further spreading the image of how "western girls" who wear normal beach clothing are dishonorable and dispicable, how men are superior etc.
Now that being said, I don't understand why they wouldn't just outright ban all religious symbols/clothing from the beach. Banning only religious clothing from one religion will amost certainly bring them legal trouble. And while I agree in substance, it's still seems very opportunistic.
I think many posters who claim this ban is somehow limiting womens free will of what they want to wear are not quite seeing the full picture. Tolerating these things isn't "neutral", it's letting political islam occupy the public eye/space, further spreading the image of how "western girls" who wear normal beach clothing are dishonorable and dispicable, how men are superior etc.
Now that being said, I don't understand why they wouldn't just outright ban all religious symbols/clothing from the beach. Banning only religious clothing from one religion will amost certainly bring them legal trouble. And while I agree in substance, it's still seems very opportunistic.
You were the one talking of the state there
Liamario
Banned
Because Islamic life in the Middle East is a huge success story?
Monocle
Member
Ugh look at her immodest unclad feet while she smirks in defiance of her lord. What will she do to quell this unwelcome boner, which stands as a damning indictment of her perverse nature?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I don't care to convince you to find it cool or stupid. Democracy is about being able to do something other won't necessarily agree with.
Soul searching women to see if they are the agent of their actions or not it's a dangerous path, and i don't see why it couldn't be apply to bikini or anything cultural. If a husband force his wife to do something like that, it's forbidden by the law and it's enough.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Feet are not considered part of awrah, nudity, for most muslim.
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