This is reductive and disingenuous at best and you know it.
Several French cities ban Burkinis on beaches, citing "public order" concerns
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This is reductive and disingenuous at best and you know it.
Audioboxer
Member
Yeah, that is what I've said all along. To reiterate, I don't approve of the ban.
However this
is incredibly hard to prove. Mostly considering good luck getting a wife to admit this/go to the law to "snitch" on her husband, especially if she's from an Islamic faith.
Democracy doesn't mean you have to tolerate the establishment of counter-societies that are based on principles which go against the very values of democracy itself. I agree that you can't go around asking women whether they're wearing their clothing on their own free will or because of their husband, because noone wants a thought police. That said, I completely disagree with your last sentence. If the current laws were enough this problem wouldn't even exist. It's not like most of those women could just go to the police without fear or repurcussions, there would often be a huge amount of shaming + expulsion from their "social circle" if not worse.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
This is what is usually said in France about the issue by who support these kind of law.
In sunni Islam you have 4 school of practical theology, and in each of this 4 schools, it's not allowed for a woman to show her body to a non-related family member.
This is the rule and practicing muslim who recognize themselves in theses 4 schools follow them.
Nothing to do with political islam, or political agenda.Just trying to harmonize religious practice and western life. I am pretty sure the orthodox jews have the same rule and nobody is talking about political judaism in France about it, because the populist conspiracy theory shifted it's focus from jews to muslims as potential destroyer of the western civilization.
It's probably just politic strategy, not even enacted for real reasons. I mean, the mayor wants to add such a restriction here... and I've barely seen "visible" muslims (I think a single woman with a veil in the *whole* week) and it's the top of the season. Burkinis? Lol.
The effect of terrorism are more obvious, though, they cancelled the electric parade yesterday evening, and reduced the normal parade (which require searching to access, like fireworks on monday) :/ (mostly unrelated)
It's not a law, and it's actually even challenged.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
It's that or to give a paternal role to the state. It should be more productive to promote women's agency than to suspect that the decision we don't understand are not self-motivated. Every sociological work about niqab in France show that in almost all cases, the family or husband is not involved at all, and in the majority of cases, against it.
I think you should know yourself that bringing a "jews vs muslims" comparison is very disingenious. First of all because we're not talking about orthodox jews so this whataboutism isn't helpful, second of all you know as well as I do that in current times orthodox jewish counter-societies are not a relevant problem.
Would appreciate some links.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I didn't said it was but anyway, the Prime Minister supporting municipal decrees against burkini is like giving a green light to all mayors to do the same. They don't even have to justify anything, the reason invoked is public order. The same reason that was used some decade ago against topless women.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
So now France is divided in many "counter-societies" ? And yes it's very relevant, because it's the same paradigm working.
And are you implying that it was a problem in the past? Anyways, muslim community is being problematized, it's different. French society feel threatened by its muslim minority since the iranian revolution. There is zero group looking to establish shari'a law in France. You have two trend of political islam, one is looking for accommodation (UOIF) and the other is looking to exile (some part of the salafi movement).
https://www.amazon.fr/dp/B009ITLZQW/
Behind the Burqa (documentary with english ST)
nelsonroyale
Member
Very stupid. I don't really agree with the reasoning for wearing the Burkha or even the Burkini, but I don't agree with prohibiting them either.
Personally, I find overweight, sun-roasted, middle aged European sun bathers much more offensive (to the eyes), but I don't think they should be banned from accessing the beach.
Personally, I find overweight, sun-roasted, middle aged European sun bathers much more offensive (to the eyes), but I don't think they should be banned from accessing the beach.
Kill Your Masters
Member
But it's probably not forbidden to walk in a wetsuit all day if you want to.
20 years ago there were muslims in france and no burkini,niquab different hours for women at public pool etc..
And with the growing influence of saudi arabia and quatar these clothes and attacks against our laïcité increased, strange isn't it ?
Many girls in the "cité" need to take the veil or they are considered like whores that men can harass, many associations report it
So burkinis and niquab are not simple and innocent clothes !
Why is the idea that forcing people into your specific world view okay rather than gently encouraging them to be open minded of other views?
This line of thinking that you know what's best for a group of people than they know themselves is frankly disgusting.
The irony is those are exactly the tools used that brought people to this puritanical mess of covering themselves in the first.
Let people feel comfortable with themselves rather than feel like outcasts for merely what they wear for their own spiritual needs.
But judging from some of the posts here, I wonder if even discussing this will actually make any difference in changing anyone's mind.
Sigh.
This line of thinking that you know what's best for a group of people than they know themselves is frankly disgusting.
The irony is those are exactly the tools used that brought people to this puritanical mess of covering themselves in the first.
Let people feel comfortable with themselves rather than feel like outcasts for merely what they wear for their own spiritual needs.
But judging from some of the posts here, I wonder if even discussing this will actually make any difference in changing anyone's mind.
Sigh.
So they are not outcasts when they are walking around completely covered in black clothing, are not allowed to drive or work (whether by law or husband)? You must have an interesting definition of "outcast".
Kill Your Masters
Member
You are basically outcasting them even more. They won't suddenly stop wearing a burkini but rather don't go to the beach at all in this case.
So the alternative is caving in to political islam? You can not "appease" salafists and their ideology. They can always get a normal bikini (that doesn't show off your whole body scantidly) and go bathing or stay dressed and just enjoy the beach. Can we please stop acting like this radical form of islam is somehow a god-given, unchangeable state of mind. As someone said, burkas (and their forms) were never an issue with european muslims only few decades ago and in many majority muslim countries such as Egypt it used to be completely normal to go to the beach in a bikini before political islam took hold.
Audioboxer
Member
There's more offensive practices to fight against than clothing. As ridiculous as the clothing is it's really not all that high on the "shitlist".
Sharia law trying to find it's way into Western societies is far more troublesome.
A Link to the Past
Banned
That's not a valid response. You were asked why you consider a viable approach to "Muslim women are oppressed!" to be oppressing Muslim women.
I agree but you can "fight" multiple offensive practices at once, not just isolated one at a time.
That is a self-victimization standpoint. If I (or my husband for me) decide to completely veil myself in black clothing, prohibit from working and taking part in social circles in a western society then I am making myself an outcast / get made an outcast by my husband or family, not by the majority society. Why should the majority society have to tolerate (in this case usually propagated by salafist/wahabist ideology which itself is often imported from Saudi-Arabia and the likes) something that goes completely against the core values of said society and furthens the establishment of counter-societies which in turns ultimately leads to social unrest / terror attacks?
At this point I'd really like to stress again that we are talking about the ultimate forms of veiling yourself aka burqas and niqabs, not "normal" hijabs. Or in this thread actually burkinis but those are more an extension of the former two than the latter.
Kill Your Masters
Member
No the alternative is to find a solution that is not counterproductive like this one.
It's probably ok to walk around in a wetsuit all day, right? How do you distinguish who is wearing something for function, for belief, for comfort or because of oppression?
There is nothing political about islamic laws on covering of men and women. France is the same country that used to print posters in the colonial times asking algerians to uncover themselves.
France is just obsessed with clothes muslim women wear.
I'm all ears! (really) It's certainly not an easy issue and it's good that a conversation has started.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Their was a big generational change between the generation of the immigrants who tried to be invisible and to fade in, and the generations of their childrens, born french, who had learn in school that they were french citizen.
Hijab have nothing to do with salafism or saudi arabia, it's the normal muslim practice defined by sunni schools. Niqab is a very rare phenomena in France. Burkini have nothing to do with burqa, it's just a stupid joke. The burkini is not even really orthodox, it's just a compromise. I don't know any muslim scholar who approve it. It's not the sign of a conspiracy of the muslims against secularism, it's a sign of social integration of muslims.
The jewish orthodox women are asking for different hours in pool, as well as other secular women who like it that way, for decades.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
England and the US have no problem with it.
Kill Your Masters
Member
I am no expert on social issues. Far from it. I find this simply very illogical and absolutely absurd, as we cannot know the reason someone is wearing something unless they go to the police and tell them they are being oppressed. Especially since a burkini apparently doesn't even cover the face, which was the main issue with Burqas. (with which I do have issues with for obvious reasons as identification)
If I had a solution I'd probably had a great paying job in that particular field.
I mean, where is the difference to a bystander, apart from the bystander being judgmental about the person on the left? (she is being oppressed, her religious views offend me, pick any slur you want really)
Also here are some nuns on the beach.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Also here are some nuns on the beach.
These are fucking Polish nuns in fucking Brazil on the Catholic World Youth Day.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Aren't wetsuits skintight and made for professional swimming/diving/surfing? It seems quite easy to spot the difference tbh.
Difference being that christian women aren't pressured or forced to become nuns and dress accordingly around here (aside from which the nun is showing her arms in your picture).
So freedom of expression is not even a sacred right because society cannot tolerate that people express their faith in a different way then society deems acceptable.
You know what I'll accept that your view won't change on that but the idea that forcing womem to wear articles of clothing that society deems acceptable will be of any reasonable effect to help with terror attacks is a joke. This is just a misdiagnosis of the actual issue.
Better yet take this to its logical conlusion and put people in re-education camps, see how well that'll help fix the problem.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
This is in France, from a catholic website (lavie):
Are you talking about this site?
I didn't know Copacabana was in France. These are Polish nuns in Brazil on World Youth Day, a Catholic event.
Seriously, I love how all those pictures of burkini wearers and Catholic nuns are from every country on Earth except France.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Nun who live all their lives in reclusion without marrying = free to do so. Totally cool.
Muslim women who go to the beach not showing arms = peer pressure, oppression. BAN BAN BAN.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Are you talking about this site?
I didn't know Copacabana was in France.
Seriously, I love how all those pictures of burkini wearers and Catholic nuns are from every country on Earth except France.
You're right, my bad. But it's still happen in France, no reason why it wouldn't.
Tell me who is forcing these women to be nuns ?
Nobody !
Contrary to women covering themselves where there's a religious and social pressure from men (brothers, husbands ...)
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Catholicism is huge in Brazil, Poland, etc. In France not really.
What does happen in France, however, is that there's like more than a third of the country voting for the far-right :/
Haarasilimanila
Neo Member
Hahhaaha, which Asian country do you want to become superpower that is going to improve diversity???
It would be interesting to hear you tell my single mother who is widowed that the hijab she is wearing is for all these years is due to the fact that she was oppressed. I mean who is oppressing her now lol.
I think you need to a speak to a muslim woman before you make assumptions. No offense but it seems you cannot handle the fact that there are muslim women out there who are covering themselves for the very same reasons those nuns cover themselves. Religious commandments
You keep sweettalking this. It's not just "expressing their faith in a different way". You can express your faith by wearing a headscarf like thousands of others do. Purposefully choosing the most extreme form of veiling that is essentially part of the wahhabist propaganda machine is not "just another way to express faith", especcially as it's a big part of trying to establish political islam in the public eye. You might also know the ECHR confirmed France's public burqa ban in 2014, so yeah.
I also accept your view, I just disagree with it. And I find this paragraph quite ridiculous because you are completely mixing up the chronology. "Society" is not forcing them to wear certain clothes, their families/husbands/radical ideology is forcing them to wear certain clothes which are not accepted by society because it goes against the core values such as equality of men and women. Of course imposing a burqa ban doesn't suddenly stop terrorism, but it's a small measure that can be taken together with many others to clearly show that wahhabism & co are not welcome here and not accepted while eventually hopefully leading to some form of modern, european islam in the longterm. Establishing that "proper, worthy women" completely veil themselves and others are infidels/sluts of course plays part in radicalizing/embeddening a certain dangerous worldview.
I made it clear earlier that I wasn't talking about hijabs but burqas and niqabs.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Have you any proof that the hijab is the result of peer pressure and not from the own women volition ?
Damn you really don't know muslim community in France. Most muslim women don't even wear it and in many case the family would freakout if they do.
I don't say that it doesn't happen, but it's clearly a minority. I don't know why the whole group would be punished for the act of a minority. Ask any hijab women why they wear it, you'll be surprised. I certainly would wear it if i was a woman, if such statement make any sense, and brave enough to do so.
ClosingADoor
Member
Tough issue. On one side, I'm all for letting people chose what to wear on the street, and then also the (public) beach. Setting such as schools are a different thing where the more extreme forms of religious influences should be banned (such as things that cover the whole face), but that's not what's happening here.
On the other side, I'm afraid that normalizing these things can also lead to increased pressure for people to follow these religious rules, which they should always be able to ignore in a free society.
Seems at the moment a ban is a bit too much, since I haven't seen any evidence of pressure on this particular subject.
On the other side, I'm afraid that normalizing these things can also lead to increased pressure for people to follow these religious rules, which they should always be able to ignore in a free society.
Seems at the moment a ban is a bit too much, since I haven't seen any evidence of pressure on this particular subject.
Where do i speak about the hijab ?
That's the 2nd time ...
A Link to the Past
Banned
Seriously; the notion that the Burkini is more related to the burka than the hijab tells me that someone noticed that their names are alike and didn't think to check anymore than that.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
The burkini it's like the hijab, not the niqab/burqa.
You really think that a big hardcore oppressive radical muslim husband would be ok to go with his wife with all those almost naked men and women around ?
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Yes, but the fault lay, sadly, on the designer who brand it with this stupid name.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
It's notable how none of the mayors who have banned the burkini are doing it for moral or religious reasons. They're citing "security" reasons. In fact these bans are temporary. For example the ban in Beaulieu-sur-Mer lasts until the end of August and the ban in Nice lasts until September 15. Somehow, they think there is a problem with burkinis but that this problem somehow disappears next month.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
After the summer vacation, there is not a lot of people who go to the beach anyway.
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