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[It's Reyn Time!]

It's like clockwork with him chirping up like that CR. Ironically, in every single thread like this.

You're exactly right! I DO show up a lot in threads like this, where disgust at Tory policy is met with Tory voters trying to shift blame to the opposition for not stopping them.

Take responsibility for the actions of your politicians.

 

[old]

Geez, I wonder what happened in 2012/2013.

Oh, that's right.

 

[PackAPunchedMick]

I wanna see the Excels.

Afraid not, I only have my phone.

Approximately £5,400,000,000 spent on smoking, drink and drug misuse every single year in the NHS. (Google is my source)

Child benefit - £11,200,000,000. no statistics on what could be saved reducing the number of eligible children. Let's estimate a third because why not?

That's almost £9 billion great British pounds saved in a single year, not including the knock on effect of people stopping smoking and drinking due to not being able to afford treatment.

 

[PdotMichael]

Geez, I wonder what happened in 2012/2013.

Oh, that's right.

The article appears to be wrong. I don't read a single line about it was forced on the people by Brussels.

 

[Doc_Drop]

This is why I have said time and again that there needs to be a mandatory civic duty to work in the NHS for a year at least. It would end so many misunderstandings of how a typical NHS service runs on a daily basis.

No shit. I was thinking as I was typing. Much like Boris Johnson.

But as a starting point it makes a lot of fucking sense if you ask me.

Because it doesn't affect you.

How would you determine whether a patient's heart disease was caused by smoking or drinking vs genetics and family history. Would you halt all treatment for anyone who drinks 1-2 units per day? 3-4? Is this done retroactively? meaning turfing the majority of patients out of wards, homes, care? And this is me not even taking things to extremes

 

[Maledict]

The breaking up of PCTs and replacing them with local Clinical Commissioning Groups was an absolute travesty. Not only did it defy the laws of economics (how can 350+ smaller bodies negotiate better deals than the 152 PCTs), but it repeated the mistake the Tories made in the 90s. GPs are not commissioners, and should not be commissioning health care provision. They don't have the skills for it, nor the resources, and inevitably end up getting in a private contractor to do it for them.

 

[PackAPunchedMick]

This is why I have said time and again that there needs to be a mandatory civic duty to work in the NHS for a year at least. It would end so many misunderstandings of how a typical NHS service runs on a daily basis.




Because it doesn't affect you.

How would you determine whether a patient's heart disease was caused by smoking or drinking vs genetics and family history. Would you halt all treatment for anyone who drinks 1-2 units per day? 3-4? Is this done retroactively? meaning turfing the majority of patients out of wards, homes, care? And this is me not even taking things to extremes

But doesn't the benefits system work much in the same way?

A single adjudicator deciding if someone is able to feed themselves this week. No-one seems to bat an eye when this happens on a daily basis to thousands of uk citizens.

What makes the NHS so different?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Everyone involved in BREXIT should be tarred and feathered and sent to do the bidding of so-called British immigrants, preferably brown ones.

"so-called"?

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Afraid not, I only have my phone.

Approximately £5,400,000,000 spent on smoking, drink and drug misuse every single year in the NHS. (Google is my source)

Child benefit - £11,200,000,000. no statistics on what could be saved reducing the number of eligible children. Let's estimate a third because why not?

That's almost £9 billion great British pounds saved in a single year, not including the knock on effect of people stopping smoking and drinking due to not being able to afford treatment.

You're just making shit up for the sake of evoking a reaction now, just like the bad uncle who doesn't like people not speaking the English language in England. Tell me, if you don't drink, smoke or do drugs then what vices do you have? You know my partner became a type 1 diabetic this year - as in it wasn't related to her diet but her pancreas no longer produced enough insulin. Is she to blame for that under your great blanket statement on your "fuck em" draft?

I hope to god you never have an incident like this with yourself, a loved one or your family because it absolutely has changed how she lives day to day now and your snide ignorance and "solutions" are exactly what this country does not need.

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

But doesn't the benefits system work much in the same way?

A single adjudicator deciding if someone is able to feed themselves this week. No-one seems to bat an eye when this happens on a daily basis to thousands of uk citizens.

What makes the NHS so different?

Are you actually holding the benefits system up as a good example?

 

[Lime]

"so-called"?

Even if you're born and raised in the UK, but have parents or grandparents who are immigrants, you're still labelled as an immigrant.

Immigrants have become for the last couple of decades just a dog-whistle for brown or eastern-european people.

 

[frankie_baby]

Hold the "self harmers" accountable for their actions.

Alcohol:
Cigarettes:
Drugs:

Any related illness/injury should be exempt from NHS funding. Let them foot the bill.

Then watch the NHS flourish, beds will be empty, A&E wait times will be minutes not hours.

If only the government had the balls. I wish.

what a load of shit, you are aware aren't you that Alcohol and cigarettes have additional tax on them anyway aren't you??? the cost to the NHS has already been paid by the users, as for drugs then maybe if the government did the sensible thing and legalised and taxed them then not only would the costs to the NHS fall due to them causing less problem with better quality stuff but those costs would be more than covered with the additional taxes

 

[kmag]

What makes the carriers terrible? The fact that each one is more fuel efficient, crew efficient and has a higher sortie rate then all three of the predecessors combined? We will also get enough F-35's to fill 3 carriers although the standard load out of jets will be much lower due to standard peacetime sorties.

And just as an added bonus the UK makes money off every single F-35 sold, the whole programme is actually worth billions in profit to UK industries.

Back on topic, you want someone to blame for the privatisation of the NHS? Blame the opposition who instead of striking while the iron was hot simply decided to embark on a civil war instead. The Tories should have been crucified for recent actions but instead we get a circus of the pathetic and miserable who can't muster half a fart against them.

Just to jump off topic for a second.

In terms of the carriers they're terrible because they lack an over horizon AEW radar ability. On the US and French carriers this is done by the cat launched E-2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_E-2_Hawkeye and it's pretty critical for actual force projection which after all is the entire point.

On the older UK Invincible class, they concocted a part time AEW solution by putting a Sea King up to it it's maximum height and relied on it for part time AEW.

The F-35B is like all SVTOL variants, of questionable efficacy. It's fuel load is reduced by about 1/3rd compared to the F-35A, and unlike previous SVTOL fighters use of drop tanks is extremely problematic due to any external ordnance ruining the stealth profile (the stealth profile being the only thing stopping the F-35 from being a complete flop). It's range, G-loading (7.0g for the B vs 9 for the A) and payload capabilities are pretty poor compared to the F-35A and F-35C (neither of which are stellar performers in these categories). There's also the additional issue that the F-35B internal bays are a bit smaller than the F-35A and F-35C which rules out internal incorporation of the current version of the Brimstone missile. The F-35 design itself already makes some pretty big concessions to it's multi mission role, the F-35B extends those concessions to the point I don't see ever operating in a situation where there is not already air superiority.

The production tranching and staged buy, means that while we'll buy 138 of the F-35B's we'll pretty much only ever have around 30-40 available (the maximum capacity of a single QEII class is 50). We'll also not get the first tranche of 28 until 2023 which is 6 years into the QE's service, we wouldn't be able to operate a full capacity mission regardless of circumstance until nearly 2026 or nearly a decade into the ships life span.

We've spent £6 billion and counting on a bang average at best solution, which we'll half fill with a pretty poor variant of a pretty ropey plane. Large carriers we'll never ever fill. If we were going to go for ski jump carriers it's madness to have went for two of this size. You're talking ships with massively more displacement than the Charles de Gaulle (42,500 tons vs 70,600 tons) yet unarguably less capability.

 

[Doc_Drop]

The breaking up of PCTs and replacing them with local Clinical Commissioning Groups was an absolute travesty. Not only did it defy the laws of economics (how can 350+ smaller bodies negotiate better deals than the 152 PCTs), but it repeated the mistake the Tories made in the 90s. GPs are not commissioners, and should not be commissioning health care provision. They don't have the skills for it, nor the resources, and inevitably end up getting in a private contractor to do it for them.

Yep, and I say that as a son of a GP. Since the change I have seen a massive increase in private companies winning contracts and providing sub-par services. Hell, in April Capita became responsible for organising our patient records transfers and we are still waiting on records that were supposed to be sent to use since then.

From my perspective the major issue has been the persons in charge have tried to apply business solutions and cost saving measures to the NHS which has led to bloat in administrative procedures, administrative staff, and managerial positions/pay.

 

[Doc_Drop]

But doesn't the benefits system work much in the same way?

A single adjudicator deciding if someone is able to feed themselves this week. No-one seems to bat an eye when this happens on a daily basis to thousands of uk citizens.

What makes the NHS so different?

Single adjudicator? hahaha.

I'll strike your views on healthcare systems and social care as just misinformed, you clearly have no grasp of how these systems work in practice, their affect, or their aims.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Even if you're born and raised in the UK, but have parents or grandparents who are immigrants, you're still labelled as an immigrant.

Immigrants have become for the last couple of decades just a dog-whistle for brown or eastern-european people.

Ehh, I don't really think that's the case. But this probably isn't the thread for this.

I'm not sure why Brexit is being mentioned so much anyway. Pretty sure these cuts aren't caused by or in response to the referendum result...

Edit:

Just to jump off topic for a second.

<snip>

How do you know all this? I find it fascinating when you talk about this stuff. Maybe there should be a dedicated thread for this kind of discussion?

 

[PackAPunchedMick]

You're just making shit up for the sake of evoking a reaction now, just like the bad uncle who doesn't like people not speaking the English language in England. Tell me, if you don't drink, smoke or do drugs then what vices do you have? You know my partner became a type 1 diabetic this year - as in it wasn't related to her diet but her pancreas no longer produced enough insulin. Is she to blame for that under your great blanket statement on your "fuck em" draft?

I hope to god you never have an incident like this with yourself, a loved one or your family because it absolutely has changed how she lives day to day now and your snide ignorance and "solutions" are exactly what this country does not need.

How is this related to what I said regarding smoke/drug/drink misuse?

Aa a matter of fact my mother has been at deaths door due to smoking for 40 years, her very self admitted that the will to quit would multiply exponentially if the help wasn't available at her feet whenever she came knocking.

 

[Jezbollah]

You're exactly right! I DO show up a lot in threads like this, where disgust at Tory policy is met with Tory voters trying to shift blame to the opposition for not stopping them.

Take responsibility for the actions of your politicians.

So do you think responsibility should be placed on voters for NOT voting for any parties that could defeat the Tories? Or those politicians that don't make those parties appealing to voters in the first place?

 

[Protome]

Ehh, I don't really think that's the case. But this probably isn't the thread for this.

I'm not sure why Brexit is being mentioned so much anyway. Pretty sure these cuts aren't caused by or in response to the referendum result...

It's being brought up entirely because of the Brexit campaign's whole "we can spend more money on the NHS" lies.

 

[Miles X]

Oh yes this is definitely because of Brexit. If we voted to stay nothing would have happened to the NHS and the UK would have entered a perpetual state of bliss with no issues ect ect.

It's being brought up entirely because of the Brexit campaign's whole "we can spend more money on the NHS" lies.

Lies they may be, but we're not out yet, so it has nothing to do with anything.

 

[Protome]

Lies they may be, but we're not out yet, so it has nothing to do with anything.

I don't disagree. The cuts after we leave will be much worse.

 

[Lime]

Lies they may be, but we're not out yet, so it has nothing to do with anything.

Yes, it has to do with revealing the actual intentions of the UK government in that they never actually cared about NHS, even while they were championing supporting NHS even further during the whole Brexit bullshit

 

[Doc_Drop]

How is this related to what I said regarding smoke/drug/drink misuse?

Aa a matter of fact my mother has been at deaths door due to smoking for 40 years, her very self admitted that the will to quit would multiply exponentially if the help wasn't available at her feet whenever she came knocking.

Such a bizarre world view. The help to stop quitting was also available at her feet.

 

[dalyr95]

Afraid not, I only have my phone.

Approximately £5,400,000,000 spent on smoking, drink and drug misuse every single year in the NHS. (Google is my source)

Child benefit - £11,200,000,000. no statistics on what could be saved reducing the number of eligible children. Let's estimate a third because why not?

That's almost £9 billion great British pounds saved in a single year, not including the knock on effect of people stopping smoking and drinking due to not being able to afford treatment.

£12.3 billion in cig tax alone
£20 billion in alcohol tax

So fuck off and leave me alone, we pay our way.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I don't disagree. The cuts after we leave will be much worse.

Bit unreasonable to expect them to spend money "saved" by leaving the EU before we've left though, no? Even if their sums were completely accurate, logically it just wouldn't be possible to reallocate that money now.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

How is this related to what I said regarding smoke/drug/drink misuse?

Aa a matter of fact my mother has been at deaths door due to smoking for 40 years, her very self admitted that the will to quit would multiply exponentially if the help wasn't available at her feet whenever she came knocking.

Yet when she was offered the help she didn't take it. It's down to self control that's all. The help that is there for people who take it makes a huge difference.

 

[It's Reyn Time!]

So do you think responsibility should be placed on voters for NOT voting for any parties that could defeat the Tories? Or those politicians that don't make those parties appealing to voters in the first place?

I think that when you enter a topic about some morally repugnant policy the people you voted for are trying to enact and see people being repulsed by it, rather than trying to shift the blame you should probably reflect on why people are repulsed by it.

 

[Starwolf_UK]

As what always baffled me with the EU campaign is the remain side didn't want to bring this inconvenient truth to light even if would crucify vote leaves fucking battle bus (as it would show that leaving the EU is not a panacea for the NHS) but Tory pride in the destructive nature of their own policies means don't speak up about Brexiteers blaming the EU for domestic issues (e.g. public services are squeezed because of austerity not foreginers).

Don't worry, that Brexit funding will kick in any day now.

Yep. minus 20 plus 11 equals minus 9. We did it. The NHS is still worse off...and we left the EU for it.

The first rule about the right-wing and Tories, is that it is NEVER the fault of the right-wing or Tories.

I'm still waiting for them to blame the opposition for not being good enough.

Child benefit - £11,200,000,000. no statistics on what could be saved reducing the number of eligible children. Let's estimate a third because why not?

A third? You do know UK fertility is less than 2, right?
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tsdde220&plugin=0
Also fell by 5% after 2012. Wasn't there some sort of welfare change then?

Also you know that Child benefit is less after the first child.

 

[frankie_baby]

Afraid not, I only have my phone.

Approximately £5,400,000,000 spent on smoking, drink and drug misuse every single year in the NHS. (Google is my source)

Child benefit - £11,200,000,000. no statistics on what could be saved reducing the number of eligible children. Let's estimate a third because why not?

That's almost £9 billion great British pounds saved in a single year, not including the knock on effect of people stopping smoking and drinking due to not being able to afford treatment.

Fag tax already covers all the costs to the NHS

cutting child benefit is a ridiculously bad idea in the long term as if people are put off having kids now there'll be less people to pay your pension later

 

[DiGiKerot]

So do you think responsibility should be placed on voters for NOT voting for any parties that could defeat the Tories? Or those politicians that don't make those parties appealing to voters in the first place?

Given 63% of those voting didn't vote for the Tories, I don't think you can claim that opposing viewpoints aren't popular. Politicians can only do so much when battling against a system that gives inordinate amounts of political power based on locations with wildly disparate voter numbers.

(That said, I suppose you can blame them for being too terrified of the concept of hung parliaments or political compromise to vote for any kind of voting reform when given the chance)

 

[HazySaiyan]

If the NHS just stopped treating illness and injury altogether it would save tonnes of money! Problem solved!

If I had my way the benefit system would fund a single child. Want more? Empty your pockets.

Why do you want to punish children for the actions of their parents? They didn't ask to be born.

 

[KonradLaw]

Hold the "self harmers" accountable for their actions.

Alcohol:
Cigarettes:
Drugs:

Any related illness/injury should be exempt from NHS funding. Let them foot the bill.

Then watch the NHS flourish, beds will be empty, A&E wait times will be minutes not hours.

If only the government had the balls. I wish.

So I guess this means anyone who uses any of those vices would pay smaller taxes, right? Because otherwise what you're suggesting doesn't make any sense.

 

[PackAPunchedMick]

Fag tax already covers all the costs to the NHS

cutting child benefit is a ridiculously bad idea in the long term as if people are put off having kids now there'll be less people to pay your pension later

Genuinely curious, how much of the cigarette/alcohol tax goes into the NHS pot?

 

[Protome]

Bit unreasonable to expect them to spend money "saved" by leaving the EU before we've left though, no? Even if their sums were completely accurate, logically it just wouldn't be possible to reallocate that money now.

I think you've misread one of my posts somewhere, I never said anything different.

 

[PackAPunchedMick]

If the NHS just stopped treating illness and injury altogether it would save tonnes of money! Problem solved!

Why do you want to punish children for the actions of their parents? They didn't ask to be born.

Because we don't have infinite money?

It's awful I know but where do we draw the line?

 

[HazySaiyan]

Because we don't have infinite money?

It's awful I know but where do we draw the line?

I'd probably draw the line at condemning children to a life of poverty because of what their parents did. But that's just me.

 

[Jezbollah]

I think that when you enter a topic about some morally repugnant policy the people you voted for are trying to enact and see people being repulsed by it, rather than trying to shift the blame you should probably reflect on why people are repulsed by it.

"shifting blame" - lol. People in glass houses etc. How about you answer my question about why the other parties didn't appeal to those Conservative voters last election. In case you might have missed it, theres a whole leadership election going on in the main opposition party from MPs who think that their leader doesn't appeal to the main electorate.

Blaming the voters who used their democratic right to vote only goes so far. Yes the Government should be accountable, but an effective opposition is the only way that can happen. That's that same tune you hear me talking about. Get used to it.

Given 63% of those voting didn't vote for the Tories, I don't think you can claim that opposing viewpoints aren't popular. Politicians can only do so much when battling against a system that gives inordinate amounts of political power based on locations with wildly disparate voter numbers.

(That said, I suppose you can blame them for being too terrified of the concept of hung parliaments or political compromise to vote for any kind of voting reform when given the chance)

For sure, and we've talked about that - the system right now is not proportional. The amount of SNP MPs vs UKIP MPs shows that. But this is a system that has been in effect for decades, and has worked for every Labour and Conservative government that has got elected. FPTP is designed to guarantee stable government first of all. No political party in power is going to shy away from using that for selfish reasons.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

"listen guys I know what I'm saying is truly horrible and repugnant, but is it really that horrible and repugnant because we can save some money!?"

 

[frankie_baby]

Genuinely curious, how much of the cigarette/alcohol tax goes into the NHS pot?

surely you know taxation doesn't work that way, it along with all other taxes goes to the government, the government then dishes out money to the NHS, smokers also save the government billions in pension payments as they usually tend to live a few years less

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I think you've misread one of my posts somewhere, I never said anything different.

Yeah, I think I did. I read this post

It's being brought up entirely because of the Brexit campaign's whole "we can spend more money on the NHS" lies.

as implying that these cuts somehow prove that "we can spend more money on the NHS" was a lie.

 

[Morat]

Because we don't have infinite money?

It's awful I know but where do we draw the line?

Plenty to spend on idiotic military prestige system though. And fantastically inefficient public/private partnerships. But you know, got to draw a line somewhere, so fuck the kids.

 

[Protome]

Yeah, I think I did. I read this post



as implying that these cuts somehow prove that "we can spend more money on the NHS" was a lie.

That post doesn't imply that, it explains why others were implying that. It was an answer to a question.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

That post doesn't imply that, it explains why others were implying that. It was an answer to a question.

Well then good day to you sir!

 

[frankie_baby]

Because we don't have infinite money?

It's awful I know but where do we draw the line?

well we kinda do have actually have infinite money, we managed to magic up about half a trillion quid in the years following the crash

 

[Doc_Drop]

"listen guys I know what I'm saying is truly horrible and repugnant, but is it really that horrible and repugnant because we can save some money!?"

At that point, may as well set up a Logan's run scenario. Everyone aged 40+ gets killed (as 40 is the new 30). Plenty of housing, healthcare, land, etc to go around. It's win win

 

[Deleted member 325805]

As someone who regularly uses the NHS, fuck...

 

[Messofanego]

The sign language lady behind looks like she's shooting herself in the head after what he said.

 

[SlipperyFishes]

Because we don't have infinite money?

It's awful I know but where do we draw the line?

How about instead of fucking over normal people we tax the shit out of the rich and corporations who dodge tax bills and pay fuck all. Hello, Facebook who paid £4,327 in corporation tax for the whole of 2014. Get fucked dodgers.

Get the tax system right and we will HAVE money for the NHS instead of the Tories privatising every fucking thing.

 

[twobear]

I mean, yes I also blame Tory voters, why would I not? Should I not criticise people for opinions I think are terrible just because they're sincerely held?

 

[Doc_Drop]

Same here but the sad truth is the NHS has been awful (at least in my area) for a very long time now.

It has somewhat turned into a post code lottery unfortunately. Which is understandably encouraging more people to get private healthcare which has it's own knock on effects. We (Nottingham) currently have little to no ENT consultants working in our hospitals so we have to send patients to Leicester or Birmingham or pay over the odds to get consultants to work here locally.