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[LucidMomentum]

There's a good 538 piece on this that actually attributes it to demographics due to the Military simply be overrepresented with the most high-risk populations. http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/suicide-in-the-military/

Does that not indicate a problem with the military in regards to suicides, though?

We shouldn't be treating the military like a pure numbers game and letting rape, suicide, and abuse of rank permeate throughout just because people are "following orders" and "meeting quotas".

If the Military shows similar statistics in regards to major human rights issues as the rest of the U.S., it seems like it would be a great start to work towards resolving these issues on a smaller scale than having to make widespread changes across the U.S.

If the US people wanted to support our troops, you'd see more people volunteering to help vets and the country working towards better mental and physical healthcare, not jingoism and obsessing about the military industrial complex and getting their cut of it.

 

[aeolist]

is there any real proof that abusing people during military training makes them tougher? i'd think it would be exactly the opposite, people subjected to systematic abuse would be more fragile

 

[lightskintwin]

Why does it have to an epidemic? Again what is with the false braggado over this. "Oh he wasn't tough enough so he's dead. Oh well! Marines, Oh Ra!" There is being tough and strong and then there is being callous and cold fucking hearted and it comes off like you're excusing everything that happened because its tough being a marine.

In any other field, I'd agree with you. That's not to say steps shouldn't be done to minimize this as much as possible.

 

[kirblar]

Does that not indicate a problem with the military in regards to suicides, though?

We shouldn't be treating the military like a pure numbers game and letting rape, suicide, and abuse of rank permeate throughout just because people are "following orders" and "meeting quotas"

If the US people wanted to support our troops, you'd see more people volunteering to help vets and the country working towards better mental and physical healthcare, not jingoism and obsessing about the military industrial complex and getting their cut of it.

It doesn't mean that there isn't a problem, but it indicates the core reason for the problem may not be the military itself. It's about the angle you're approaching the issue from- if the issue's not actually the military but instead the makeup of who you're dealing with, then you need to use the same methods they do out in the civillian world targeted at that population.

Rape/Abuse is a totally different thing.

is there any real proof that abusing people during military training makes them tougher? i'd think it would be exactly the opposite, people subjected to systematic abuse would be more fragile

The goal is to get you following orders on command. Like breaking a horse.

 

[aeolist]

IThe goal is to get you following orders on command. Like breaking a horse.

yeah but that's never the excuse people give, it's always about how it's unfortunate but you have to toughen people up so they can take it

 

[kirblar]

yeah but that's never the excuse people give, it's always about how it's unfortunate but you have to toughen people up so they can take it

That's because it's the perspective of their co-workers. They want people who can be dependable and trustworthy in harsh situations.

 

[HStallion]

In any other field, I'd agree with you. That's not to say steps shouldn't be done to minimize this as much as possible.

You act like the Marines is the only field which pushes things to the extreme. Its not like a surgeon doesn't have peoples lives on the line day in and day out. No they aren't marching across the world and getting shot at but its not less a nerve wracking and incredibly mentally exhausting profession. I'm sorry but I don't buy it. We are better than this kind of one sided tough guy attitude and I find its just a shield for the shit that goes on.

Edit: My point is as extreme it is you don't want to "break" people because then that's what they are, broken. There is molding someone in a tougher, stronger person but crushing them to the point of suicide is like trying to smash a square peg into a round hole. Yeah you can brute force it at some point but you come out with something lesser because of it or worse you destroy things altogether.

 

[lightskintwin]

yeah but that's never the excuse people give, it's always about how it's unfortunate but you have to toughen people up so they can take it

It's a lot of things. Hazing can also be seen as team building. Meaning all the abuse you suffered was inflicted by those who suffered the same abuse, so if you survive it; you're one of us. It's weird, but effective form of bonding.

No different than a gang that jumps their potential members into it, before they can join.

 

[Steelrain]

yeah but that's never the excuse people give, it's always about how it's unfortunate but you have to toughen people up so they can take it

You are literally told before recruit training that the goal is to break you down to nothing and build you up. Its not an excuse, its reality. Unfortunately screening for people suited to undertake that kind of training is not the best. This is the result.

Edit: Comparisons made between this profession and doctors....welp ill just leave it there.

 

[devildog820]

Suicides has been a problem at MCRD for awhile. It is the reason we don't have doors on bathroom stalls and there is a fire-watch in the bathroom all night. Also you are almost never ever left alone.

Suicide in the military is a large problem. Number one killer of servicemen and women. Or it used to be. I remember a few guys on suicide watch when I was going through boot camp. Had to shine a blue (low light) flashlight near their bed all night and watch them to make sure they didn't harm themselves or anyone.

I wonder how bad it's gotten. In the 90s it was high pressure at Parris Island for sure, but I was never struck by a DI in any more than get moving type of way. Odd for the Corps to come right out and say people were losing their jobs. Must've been some damning evidence.

 

[LucidMomentum]

It doesn't mean that there isn't a problem, but it indicates the core reason for the problem may not be the military itself. It's about the angle you're approaching the issue from- if the issue's not actually the military but instead the makeup of who you're dealing with, then you need to use the same methods they do out in the civillian world targeted at that population.

Rape/Abuse is a totally different thing.

The goal is to get you following orders on command. Like breaking a horse.

True, but I guess I wanted to say that if the issue is stemming from the Military being comprised of the most at-risk for suicide groups, then maybe the Military should tackle the idea of quotas and why they reach out to the most at-risk for suicide groups for the bulk of their recruitment.

It's another angle the Military could take.

But then:

yeah but that's never the excuse people give, it's always about how it's unfortunate but you have to toughen people up so they can take it

You get stuff like this and you wonder if the Military even cares beyond the PR spin of things like this.

 

[devildog820]

is there any real proof that abusing people during military training makes them tougher? i'd think it would be exactly the opposite, people subjected to systematic abuse would be more fragile

We're not abused, we're being trained to respond quickly and correctly in high pressure situations. Not all of the training is perfect, but it does work. It also builds an "us against everyone else" team mentality that is useful in combat situations. We were under fire for two straight weeks in Iraq (2003) and no one cracked or succumbed to pressure.

 

[iMax]

Nobody's making excuses for a recruit's death, but the cold reality is just because you have a clean record and can pass a physical, doesn't mean you're cut out to serve in the Military.

You're also not cut out to serve in the military if you think that the activities and attitudes in the OP are defensible.

 

[Steelrain]

Suicide in the military is a large problem. Number one killer of servicemen and women. Or it used to be. I remember a few guys on suicide watch when I was going through boot camp. Had to shine a blue (low light) flashlight near their bed all night and watch them to make sure they didn't harm themselves or anyone.

I wonder how bad it's gotten. In the 90s it was high pressure at Parris Island for sure, but I was never struck by a DI in any more than get moving type of way. Odd for the Corps to come right out and say people were losing their jobs. Must've been some damning evidence.

Lol you would think its a fucking picnic compared to the 90's. The Corps is just all more about covering its ass and willing to throw Marines under the bus nowadays.

 

[lightskintwin]

You're also not cut out to serve in the military if you think that the activities and attitudes in the OP are defensible.

in the rush to make a sick burn, you've instead made a strawman.

 

[karmaforgotme]

It's a lot of things. Hazing can also be seen as team building. Meaning all the abuse you suffered was inflicted by those who suffered the same abuse, so if you survive it; you're one of us. It's weird, but effective form of bonding.

In the fleet hazing is not that bad. Hazing goes too far in some cases (see what happen at 8th&I back in the 90's), but most cases it is pretty mild. Some of the fraternity hazings I hear about is a lot worse than the stuff I saw in the Marines.

 

[devildog820]

Lol you would think its a fucking picnic compared to the 90's. The Corps is just all more about covering its ass and willing to throw Marines under the bus nowadays.

It's always kind of been like that. Just not so out in public, from what I remember.

Although boot camp was tame compared to the grunt units attached to us. They would get decked for the smallest infractions.

I bet it was 3rd Battalion. They always had a chip on their shoulder to be the most extreme.

 

[HStallion]

In the fleet hazing is not that bad. Hazing goes too far in some cases (see what happen at 8th&I back in the 90's), but most cases it is pretty mild. Some of the fraternity hazings I hear about is a lot worse than the stuff I saw in the Marines.

Frat hazings being somehow worse doesn't negate or lessen that hazing in the military is often bull shit. Its not going too far until its gone too far.

 

[karmaforgotme]

I wonder how bad it's gotten. In the 90s it was high pressure at Parris Island for sure, but I was never struck by a DI in any more than get moving type of way. Odd for the Corps to come right out and say people were losing their jobs. Must've been some damning evidence.

Just curious what battalion? It seems almost every case I hear about abuse is 3rd Battalion (as I said before I was hit back in the 90's, and I was in 3rd Battalion Mike 3032).

I bet it was 3rd Battalion. They always had a chip on their shoulder to be the most extreme.

Well see my post I guess.

 

[LucidMomentum]

It's a lot of things. Hazing can also be seen as team building. Meaning all the abuse you suffered was inflicted by those who suffered the same abuse, so if you survive it; you're one of us. It's weird, but effective form of bonding.

No different than a gang that jumps their potential members into it, before they can join.

I'm not sure if you're arguing the benefits of hazing or gang initiations in comparison to Military training, but I'd like to believe that the US of A has some level of ethics and professionalism in Military training that wouldn't equate it to hazing or gang initiations.

Edit: Comparisons made between this profession and doctors....welp ill just leave it there.

So being in the Military excuses ethical concerns because the nature of the work is already questionably ethical, compared to a more ethical profession?

We're not abused, we're being trained to respond quickly and correctly in high pressure situations. Not all of the training is perfect, but it does work. It also builds an "us against everyone else" team mentality that is useful in combat situations. We were under fire for two straight weeks in Iraq (2003) and no one cracked or succumbed to pressure.

You may not have been, but reports have shown that many people are in fact abused. But it's glossed over or ignored because of attitudes like yours of those in command.

You may not have cracked, but this man did and instead of going on to live a relatively normal life he's now dead. But I guess you have to crack a few eggs, yeah?

There's such an odd disconnect when it comes to the Military and ethical actions.

 

[Poohblaster]

DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED?

 

[iMax]

in the rush to make a sick burn, you've instead made a strawman.

It's not a "sick burn". Environments like that have no place today and serve no purpose.

 

[jehuty]

You act like the Marines is the only field which pushes things to the extreme. Its not like a surgeon doesn't have peoples lives on the line day in and day out. No they aren't marching across the world and getting shot at but its not less a nerve wracking and incredibly mentally exhausting profession. I'm sorry but I don't buy it. We are better than this kind of one sided tough guy attitude and I find its just a shield for the shit that goes on.

Edit: My point is as extreme it is you don't want to "break" people because then that's what they are, broken. There is molding someone in a tougher, stronger person but crushing them to the point of suicide is like trying to smash a square peg into a round hole. Yeah you can brute force it at some point but you come out with something lesser because of it or worse you destroy things altogether.

The Marines are that intense though. They literally will try to break you because its better for you to break down stateside than in a combat situation half way around the world. Hell, even the other branches of the military will tell you how insane you have to be to be a Marine in the first place. No matter what job you have in the Marines, you are infantry first. They have no time to be soft with anyone. Again, suicide does suck, but nothing in boot camp will even come close to have bullets shot/seeing death/having to kill all the while you are worrying about friends and family back home.

 

[aeolist]

We're not abused, we're being trained to respond quickly and correctly in high pressure situations. Not all of the training is perfect, but it does work. It also builds an "us against everyone else" team mentality that is useful in combat situations. We were under fire for two straight weeks in Iraq (2003) and no one cracked or succumbed to pressure.

the us against them mentality also guarantees that shit like this will make everyone circle the wagons and defend the corps instead of trying to figure out whether something is systematically broken and fixing it

so well done i guess

 

[HStallion]

The Marines are that intense though. They literally will try to break you because its better for you to break down stateside than in a combat situation half way around the world. Hell, even the other branches of the military will tell you how insane you have to be to be a Marine in the first place. No matter what job you have in the Marines, you are infantry first. They have no time to be soft with anyone. Again, suicide does suck, but nothing in boot camp will even come close to have bullets shot/seeing death/having to kill all the while you are worrying about friends and family back home.

I'll be honest I'm just kind of disgusted that human life is looked upon as so throw away an organization can waste a few and its ok. I just hold people to higher standards that no matter who they are or what they do. I also think hazing is disgusting on all fronts but that's me. A lot of what I'm hearing is basically "tough guys" who toughed it out and think the whole breaking a few eggs to make an omelette analogy applies to humanity.

 

[devildog820]

Just curious what battalion? It seems almost every case I hear about abuse is 3rd Battalion (as I said before I was hit back in the 90's, and I was in 3rd Battalion Mike 3032).

It had to be third.

You may not have been, but reports have shown that many people are in fact abused. But it's glossed over or ignored because of attitudes like yours of those in command.

You may not have cracked, but this man did and instead of going on to live a relatively normal life he's now dead. But I guess you have to crack a few eggs, yeah?

There's such an odd disconnect when it comes to the Military and ethical actions.

Careful, I don't take a disconnected view of hazing. I know how awful it is and useless to training. But the training is still high pressure. This guy cracked from stuff that was not part of the training, it seems. That's why people are losing jobs and probably getting court martialed.

 

[Steelrain]

It's always kind of been like that. Just not so out in public, from what I remember.

Although boot camp was tame compared to the grunt units attached to us. They would get decked for the smallest infractions.

I bet it was 3rd Battalion. They always had a chip on their shoulder to be the most extreme.

I was 2nd Bat so I wouldn't know but ,knowing current DI's at PI right now, I can tell you its MCRD wide that everyone is just trying to make it out of there with their careers intact. The emphasis on discipline has been shifted to their gaining unit.

 

[Red Frost]

I've heard some horror stories from military friends about hazing. One incident involved burying someone alive and it nearly killed the guy while another involved throwing a person in a sealed barrel into a lake.

Shit is fucked up.

 

[devildog820]

the us against them mentality also guarantees that shit like this will make everyone circle the wagons and defend the corps instead of trying to figure out whether something is systematically broken and fixing it

so well done i guess

It's a fine line. Just go out in downtown San Diego and see how many places ban Marines. But this isn't a circling of the wagons. And it's not systematically broken. But it won't be fixed properly either, politics and egos, and all that.

 

[lightskintwin]

The Marines are that intense though. They literally will try to break you because its better for you to break down stateside than in a combat situation half way around the world. Hell, even the other branches of the military will tell you how insane you have to be to be a Marine in the first place. No matter what job you have in the Marines, you are infantry first. They have no time to be soft with anyone. Again, suicide does suck, but nothing in boot camp will even come close to have bullets shot/seeing death/having to kill all the while you are worrying about friends and family back home.

This, my father was in the Army and all the jokes were about how crazy Marines were. I had several bosses I worked for who were Marines and they all had jokes about how soft the Army was. LOL

 

[Steelrain]

I've heard some horror stories from military friends about hazing. One incident involved burying someone alive and it nearly killed the guy while another involved throwing a person in a sealed barrel into a lake.

Shit is fucked up.

Literally never heard of anything like that so they either lied to you or you had the privilege of hearing a rather unique story.

 

[StayDead]

I don't know what I find more disgusting, the fact this guy felt like he had to comit suicide over all this or the fact there's people defending this kind of abuse. What the hell am I reading.

RIP.

 

[devildog820]

I've heard some horror stories from military friends about hazing. One incident involved burying someone alive and it nearly killed the guy while another involved throwing a person in a sealed barrel into a lake.

Shit is fucked up.

Sounds pretty suspect. One thing Marines (and probably other military types) love to do is play the 1up game. They love talking about how hard their hazing and training was and try to make it sound insane.

 

[Red Frost]

Literally never heard of anything like that so they either lied to you or you had the privilege of hearing a rather unique story.

One of those stories (the barrel one) is from the Swedish military. The other was ROTC and may have been an extension of the frat hazing that a majority of the people my friend hung out with were in.

 

[devildog820]

I don't know what I find more disgusting, the fact this guy felt like he had to comit suicide over all this or the fact there's people defending this kind of abuse. What the hell am I reading.

Defending the training is one thing, defending hazing is another. Hazing is sadistic, useless, and cruel.

 

[Red Frost]

Sounds pretty suspect. One thing Marines (and probably other military types) love to do is play the 1up game. They love talking about how hard their hazing and training was and try to make it sound insane.

Thing is my friend was never subject to any of this (he stayed as inconspicuous as possible). So it's not really talking himself up as he didn't have to deal with it.

 

[Steelrain]

I don't know what I find more disgusting, the fact this guy felt like he had to comit suicide over all this or the fact there's people defending this kind of abuse. What the hell am I reading.

RIP.

Niggas die every day b. Who knows why he decided to fuck off?

 

[Plum]

Niggas die every day b. Who knows why he decided to fuck off?

Honestly, what the fuck is this? How the fuck does this constitute a jovial usage of the N word? I rarely get heated here on GAF but this is disgusting.

 

[HStallion]

Niggas die every day b. Who knows why he decided to fuck off?

Are you fucking serious? This was a guy with a family and friends who love and respected him. You wouldn't say this about any marine who killed themselves after or during his service. You're a god damned disgrace!

 

[StayDead]

Are you fucking serious? This was a guy with a family and friends who love and respected him. You wouldn't say this about any marine who killed themselves after or during his service. You're a god damned disgrace!

I'm sorry, but in cases like this marine or not you wouldn't say that about anyone. It's just an awful way to think.

 

[aliengmr]

is there any real proof that abusing people during military training makes them tougher? i'd think it would be exactly the opposite, people subjected to systematic abuse would be more fragile

This is going to be hard to explain. But that is the wrong way to think about it. Did it change me? Yes. Did it prepare me? Mostly. It's not something you can really apply math to and get a solid answer.

Much of recruit training is an "act" of sorts, and each of the DI's has a role to play. In playing that role they've created numerous ways to break you without actually physically harming you. The goal is to push the recruits closer together. To work together to find ways to make it easier. They expect you to cheat the system and try and go around the DI's. I wouldn't be surprised if much of the "drama" of the training session was mapped out prior to the session even starting.

Recruit training isn't just beating recruits into submission, it's far more complicated than that. Does it actually work? Yes, for the Marines it does. Other branches have different styles.

What happened to this recruit, I don't know. The slap in the face is the only thing that stands out to me. I would not expect that to happen as DIs typically have a myriad of other ways to "slap you in the face" without having to actually do it. That's not saying somebody didn't fuck up, just that the description didn't seem beyond the norm, aside from the slap and obviously the tragic circumstances of the recruit's death.

EDIT: I was an east coast Hollywood Marine, so I'm not familiar with how things went at PI. DI's in SD had an almost comical amount of ways to hit you, without actually doing it. It sort of became a meme at one point.

 

[HStallion]

I'm sorry, but in cases like this marine or not you wouldn't say that about anyone. It's just an awful way to think.

I agree but how this doesn't hit close to home for this dude whether the guy who committed suicide finished training or not is mind boggling. Its just tough guy machismo bull shit.

 

[Tzeentch]

The emotional and mental parts are a lot harder than the physical.

-- This. The physical part of boot camp was not particularly noteworthy, to be honest (was hard as I was a skinny dude, but it's not going to break anyone that doesn't have existing problems). And that was back in the "old days."

 

[Steelrain]

I agree but how this doesn't hit close to home for this dude whether the guy who committed suicide finished training or not is mind boggling. Its just tough guy machismo bull shit.

lol how is that tough guy shit?

 

[Nabbis]

People trained to kill others have fucked up personalities, i'm surprised.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

My brother in law nearly killed himself over hazing in the corps. He ended up deserting his unit and getting an dishonorable discharge, a divorce, and fell into drugs for a few years. He's better but he's still got the dishonorable and that precludes him from a lot of benefits, such as from the va if he would ever file a claim about this.

 

[HStallion]

lol how is that tough guy shit?

How is it not? You have constantly be going on about the idea of toughness like its the end all and be all of a human's worth while relegating this persons death to nothing but a speed bump in the road of life because he couldn't handle it. Worse yet you're ridiculing someone's death by suicide when I know you would never dare say that about a marine who took their own life during their service or after the fact. Its a callous, ignorant, narcissistic attitude that is nothing to be proud of.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

Niggas die every day b. Who knows why he decided to fuck off?

We do know. This entire thread is about why people kill themselves in the marine corps.

 

[Steelrain]

How is it not? You have constantly be going on toughness while relegating this persons death to nothing because he couldn't handle. Worse yet you're ridiculing someone's death by suicide when I know you would never dare say that about a marine who took their own life during their service or after the fact. Its a callous, ignorant, narcissistic attitude that is nothing to be proud of.

Well this kid was never a Marine in the first place but besides that...you attributed a lot of emotions to a post that consisted of a meme and a question. No pride in the fact that this kid offed himself. More sad that he was allowed to attend training in the first place. The military is extremely reactionary in nature and the fallout from this will be huge.

 

[Palmer_v1]

I have mixed feelings about this.

In general, I think anyone that would break down this easily is best off not joining the military, but I obviously would never have wished anyone dead. I have a very hard time believing anything was done to this guy that hadn't been done to tons of people before. It's never personal. You just keep your head down, do absolutely nothing to stand out, and let it roll off you when they eventually yell at you anyway for something inconsequential.

I have no idea why they suddenly need a scapegoat for this.

Edit:

Yeah the physical aspects were nothing compared to the mental.