Pretty much this.
Games ruined by creator's politics
- Thread starter FlyinJ
- Start date
Pretty much this.
To go further on this (and not related to the person in question), you can have someone who supports multiple charities all over out of the goodness of their hearts, goes out of their way to help people a lot, and more. It's also entirely possible that that person has incredibly shitty views on certain matters.
chrominance
Member
The other thing I would say about this is that I think this is a very personal choice, and I wouldn't try to impose my decisions on others. I wouldn't demand a boycott of The Vanishing of Ethan Carter because of its creator's political views. Even works whose explicit political outlook is different from mine, generally I would not purchase myself (or would feel free to criticize openly if I did), but I wouldn't expect other people to do so on my command.
I recently had this discussion with some friends of mine over The Birth of a Nation, a movie that recently premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival amid fresh discoveries of the director's past sexual assault allegations. The discussion isn't entirely germane here because a lot of it focused on whether the man's career should suffer if the allegations turned out to be false (and I won't get into the lengthy arguments concerning court prosecutions of sexual assault and what exactly the lack of a conviction means). In many ways, however, you have the same essential argument: knowing what you know about the situation, do you feel comfortable watching the movie? Playing the game? Reading the book? etc., etc.
Ultimately, that decision rests on a complex set of internal decisions that don't have anything to do with objective truth. It's about what you're personally comfortable with, what actions you think support the creator or their views/actions versus just the work itself, and so on and so forth. Is art and the artist inseparable? There's no right answer, and where you stand probably informs how many answers to this question you have.
(Never mind that many, many instances where you simply don't know enough about a creator to decide if you like their past or not--how do we know any given game developer isn't a racist, or homophobic, or any of a million other things you'd personally find offensive? Is that enough to relieve you of your perceived obligation not to support that person and/or their work?)
I recently had this discussion with some friends of mine over The Birth of a Nation, a movie that recently premiered at the Toronto International Film Festival amid fresh discoveries of the director's past sexual assault allegations. The discussion isn't entirely germane here because a lot of it focused on whether the man's career should suffer if the allegations turned out to be false (and I won't get into the lengthy arguments concerning court prosecutions of sexual assault and what exactly the lack of a conviction means). In many ways, however, you have the same essential argument: knowing what you know about the situation, do you feel comfortable watching the movie? Playing the game? Reading the book? etc., etc.
Ultimately, that decision rests on a complex set of internal decisions that don't have anything to do with objective truth. It's about what you're personally comfortable with, what actions you think support the creator or their views/actions versus just the work itself, and so on and so forth. Is art and the artist inseparable? There's no right answer, and where you stand probably informs how many answers to this question you have.
(Never mind that many, many instances where you simply don't know enough about a creator to decide if you like their past or not--how do we know any given game developer isn't a racist, or homophobic, or any of a million other things you'd personally find offensive? Is that enough to relieve you of your perceived obligation not to support that person and/or their work?)
"I also don’t make HIV jokes, so let’s not pretend that I go around making those statements in a normal debate either. I didn’t make those comments to all of disagreements here, only to the guy who threatended to physical violence. Again, it was a stupid choice to use those words here, but it doesn’t mean I go around saying that all the time. That’s a lie."
In his words he got mad at someone and made a joke, and that he normally doesnt do it so that makes it better I guess.
The dudes was piece of shit, unless he's done a complete 180 on his views he'll still be one. If you have a personal relationship with him please do ask him his views on the matter to see if he's still like that. Or if he's just "nice" to people but god forbid you try to be as equal as everyone else and he'll tell you that no they should know their place.
semiconscious
Member
unfortunate, to the extent that it's probably my favorite 'walking simulator' type game...
poodaddy
Member
I feel like you really should elaborate here.....
You're claiming that the man is hateful based on a line of text that you can't seem to reproduce. I'm defending his character based on the time I've spent with him in 2015. So... Maybe he just cast an evil spell on my or something. You probably know better. You read that one thing.
SinCityAssassin
Member
IIRC the expanded version of that story is something like
allegedly pacifist liberal cabal invents mechs to take over because they HATE OUR TROOPS.
I do want to give Chair the benefit of the doubt, that it might have been easier to pitch Shadow Complex if they attached a famous author's name and tied it into some of his recent work, but OSC is still a huge jagoff.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Kingdom Come is the most recent one, game looked great but then the creator opened his mouth and turned me way off. He couldn't even do project updates without crying about how triggered he gets by SJW bogeymen, like he needed a safe space where he could be a turd without repercussions.
Someone who threatened physical violence, huh. Helpless victim.
Thus far, your defense of TenNapel has been:
A) Everybody says shitty things
B) I don't find his bigotry particularly hateful
C) He said his awful shit on some obscure sites
D) If you can't produce the exact quote he said, then I consider he didn't say it
What exactly are you doing in this thread?
EDIT: E) He was no saint (in reference to the dude TenNapel wished AIDs upon).
I'd assume his comments are geared toward Israel in the one case.
Basically though, it sounds like he's just round-about quoting Nietzsche here. "Beware that when fighting monsters you yourself do not become a monster". I seriously doubt he's suggesting that that is always the case, but more likely he finds the concept fertile grounds for story ideas to explore in his games. History kind of backs him up too. How many peaceful revolutions are there and how many violent and murderous? You could argue the oppressors had it coming, but it could easily also be argued that it still doesn't make it right.
On the subject itself, I tend to fall into the "separate the art from the artist" camp, provided the art itself is more or less innocuous.
Straight privilege is convenient like that
You know, that doesn't really speak well of his character. It says he's a backstabber because he can be friendly to someone's face and then support politics that dehumanize them and try to deny their rights. It's almost worse than just being an honest bigot.
Tavernacle12
Member
I loved the Earthworm Jim cartoon and toys as a kid but was never able to get the games. I think I found out about his views around the time the SNES game came to the Vitual Console and I never wound up purchasing it because of that.
Seperating an author's views from his or her work can be hard, and I think it generally is going to work on a case by case basis. For instance, while I refuse to buy anything TenNapel makes, I still love Lovecraft's stuff. Some of it is innocent, even if his views were toxic, but some of it is absolutly reprehensible in its views on race. He was considered exceedingly racist even at the time, but what he brought into into the world is significant enough and enjoyable enough that I can overlook it. The fact he's long dead and isn't getting any money from my enjoyment of his work makes it easier to swallow.
chrominance
Member
Yeah, most everything I've heard about the game itself leads me to believe I would like it. I have tons of games I already own to play still, so it's been easy for me to simply put off the decision to buy or not buy, but every time I think about it I remember the creator and his political views, and it makes me hesitate. I don't claim it to be a principled thing or a rule I apply equally universally across all products--I did buy Shadow Complex, after all. But I had to think about it a little.
I won't lie, that's actually a big factor for me as well. Hateful creators are easier to swallow when they're long dead. I'm a little conflicted over whether that's a cop-out or not, but it's something I can live with for now.
All you're showing me is that he doesn't support gay marriage. I'm not disputing that? I was disputing people calling him "violently homophobic."
SinCityAssassin
Member
You can be civil and still be an inherently shitty person.
purseowner
Member
I've spent this whole thread resisting saying this. But this.
The problem here is that you are claiming he said specific, vile things, but you can't seem to find any evidence anywhere to support your claims.
lol, if you think a person that makes that sort of joke under any circumstances doesn't have some serious prejudices against a group of people.
Mmkay. Hyperbole totally justified. Carry on, everyone.
visiblemode
Member
I totally agree with this. Overpoliticizing art is as bad an idea as overpoliticizing technology.
Would you refuse to use a cellphone if it was invented by someone with awful beliefs?
While art is arguably more "flavoured" by things than tech and more easily tainted, that to me is all the more reason to stop putting artists under a microscope.
Making great art doesn't mean you belong on a public platform to discuss all subjects.
I can't find the exact quote, no, because:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160313143803/http://ratfist.com/page-99/
However, others have approached TenNapel about his comment, and he doesn't back away from admitting he said them, only that he was upset when he said them (and somehow that's alright)
Other sites also picked up on it.
Assassin's Creed Unity - the game's historic aspects felt off for the first time in the franchise for me and that's coming from a French publisher. I expected much more.
Then there was the graphics being too ambitious or the reported bugs which I didn't encounter - and the game was damaged by Ubisoft cramming every feature modern games needed to have at the time into it. Four different kinds of chests with some unlocked via a companion app was the embodiment of feature overload. AC Syndicate was noticeably slimmed down and it was a much better game for it.
Then there was the graphics being too ambitious or the reported bugs which I didn't encounter - and the game was damaged by Ubisoft cramming every feature modern games needed to have at the time into it. Four different kinds of chests with some unlocked via a companion app was the embodiment of feature overload. AC Syndicate was noticeably slimmed down and it was a much better game for it.
TheRazielim
Member
Bigotry is above evidence.
Have a Nice Day
Member
Considering not playing or boycotting a game because someone in the development team uphold different ideals and opinions is one of the most pathetic things a person can do. David Jaffe can be as hypocritical as he want, that won't stop me from enjoying Twisted Metal and Mickey Mania.
Theanine3D
Member
Every time anyone is critical of Fish, this video gets reposted, as if it somehow erases all the nasty things Fish has said and done in public. Like telling others to kill themselves (how can anyone defend this?) or humiliating a humble and polite Japanese indie developer in front of a large crowd. No one put a gun to Fish's head to do those things - he did them of his own accord. Absolving him of blame by saying "Oh well he was just reacting this way due to fame" is ridiculous. Most famous people (including people far more famous than him) don't act the way he has.
With that said, saying mean things is a lot less harmful than actively using your financial and public position to influence the legal system and treat others as second class citizens.
Garrett Hawke
Member
I love threads like this cus it shows me who to put on my ignore list.
Homophobia and homophobic rhetoric is inherently violent because it directly results in a lot of violence towards gay people.
Homophobia and homophobic rhetoric is inherently violent because it directly results in a lot of violence towards gay people.
mcz117chief
Member
Yup, same here. And the worst thing is that he was like that since before Mafia 1. We was writing short stories and blogs for a magazine I used to be subscribed to and little by little I pieced together him incredibly hostile and toxic personality.
I was thinking about going to their company and paying every person there 1 euro except him and then just get the game somewhere used or through key resellers.
Doug is a man with a voice, capable of getting interviews with major gaming outlets.
If his history of, and reputation for, being an outspoken bigot was really bothering him, and if he had in fact changed his ways, he'd have no trouble making a long, meaningful, genuinely contrite apology, and have it appear prominently all over the internet.
He could become a shining beacon for the belief that yes, people can change, and yes, it will get better for LGBT people in the future.
Unless and until he decides to do that, I have no trouble continuing to think he's a piece of shit homophobe who wishes death on LGBT people and has actively fought against their rights by funding anti-LGBT organisations. Beyond that, I have no problem making as many people aware of that as possible.
Well if it came out that Apple was giving money to anti-LGBT organizations (just as an example), I wouldn't feel comfortable buying an iPhone 7. And even then, in today's world a cellphone has essentially become a necessity, whereas a video game is purely a luxury.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Giving money to shitty people is noble af, brehs
Thanks for the info, actively avoiding now any work from this piece of shit.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I'd say placing the entertainment value of a game over having principles is more pathetic but that's just me
And I'm pretty sure there's at least one ideal that would change your mind
I just want to be clear, it's not that I don't believe you, I just think it hurts your argument to cite things that aren't available for everyone to see. I don't doubt the guy is a piece of shit.
There's always so much resistance to this, like people can't accept that it's possible to cause harm in any way other than physically assaulting gay people yourself.
Sweet dude
BlackClouds
Member
You know, if I considered the politics of most creators including videogames, I'd boycott the whole industry. I have heard some things and it's never positive. Not really down with begging for some rudimentary representation because it gets conveniently "forgotten", yeah right. Less I know about a creator's politics, the better from my pov.
Ugh.
Tavernacle12
Member
If buying something in turn benefits someone who actively wishes ill upon me, then it is justified. If someone is gay they have every right not to support the art of someone who, if they bought it, would use that money to fight against gay marriage. As someone who's Jewish, I refuse to support anyone who is a part of the KKK or Neo-Nazis.
The argument isn't 'Oh, I'm a Democrat and this developer is a Republican, I can't support his work because we disagree.' That's silly. It's 'I'm Jewish and this developer activley funds a Holocaust denial group, I can't support his work.'
As with movies, I try not to automatically hold disagreements I have a creator's viewpoint against their creative work, which I may otherwise find appealing. So as long as their work doesn't really conflict with my personal values or feel like straight propoganda, then I can still appreciate it.
For example, I've found Mel Gibson's prejudice past opinions absolutely disturbing....that doesn't change the fact that I think Braveheart is a great movie or that the Road Warrior will always be one of my favorite films. I disagree with Clint Eastwood's politics, but I still think he's a great filmmaker.
At the same time, I also think it's foolish to expect art and politics to be completely separated, especially since often creative work is shaped or molded by the worldview of the artist.
...nor would I at all want art and politics separated. Some of my favorite games of all time and in recent years benefited and were shaped for the better because their examination into political and social themes.
At the same time, I also understand that by purchasing the work of someone, there is the chance that my financial support might go to other projects they might be involved with that I may be for or against....so though it doesn't completely define what I purchase, but I do try to go out of my way to support developers who have expressed social values I agree with, while also being hesitant of those who have outright expressed views I've found offensive.
For example, I've found Mel Gibson's prejudice past opinions absolutely disturbing....that doesn't change the fact that I think Braveheart is a great movie or that the Road Warrior will always be one of my favorite films. I disagree with Clint Eastwood's politics, but I still think he's a great filmmaker.
At the same time, I also think it's foolish to expect art and politics to be completely separated, especially since often creative work is shaped or molded by the worldview of the artist.
...nor would I at all want art and politics separated. Some of my favorite games of all time and in recent years benefited and were shaped for the better because their examination into political and social themes.
At the same time, I also understand that by purchasing the work of someone, there is the chance that my financial support might go to other projects they might be involved with that I may be for or against....so though it doesn't completely define what I purchase, but I do try to go out of my way to support developers who have expressed social values I agree with, while also being hesitant of those who have outright expressed views I've found offensive.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Dennis Dyack speaks for itself.
purseowner
Member
Given the direction this thread has taken, I only hope that this is satire.
Not all games are made for you, and if you can't handle or are immediately disinterested in characters whose perspectives and backgrounds differ from your own, then I really don't know what to tell you.