Comparing being raped with acting like an asshole, nice.
Myanmar Gives Tourist Who Pulled Plug on Buddhist Chants 3 Months in Prison
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Comparing being raped with acting like an asshole, nice.
Chuckie
Member
It is an extreme example of local laws. It does not have to be a 1 on 1 situation to be compared. And by making the example I am not saying one is as extreme as the other. But you knew that.
Lets put it in other words:
To what extend do we have to respect local laws? I mean we always have to abide by them, there is no doubt about that, but at what point can the law be criticized here on GAF and do we stop saying: Well..when in Rome.
Jon Carter
Member
Reminds me of this: http://youtu.be/pie6L9lw_GE
Nostremitus
Member
The two are completely different.
Also, you should look up the definition of a phrase before trying to correct people on it.
Cultural relativism: Cultural relativism is the principle that an individual person's beliefs and activities should be understood by others in terms of that individual's own culture.
He was in another country and expected people to react to his behaviors the same way they would in his own culture. Expecting the people of Myanmar to behave according to his culture or your own is a classic example of misguided cultural relativism. They don't have to view his actions based on where he or you are from. The simple fact is that he was there and broke their laws.
This isn't a case of social injustice, or oppression, or anything like that. If anything, he tried to restrict the religious rights of the people in the country his was visiting. I can't stress this enough... This dude was completely at fault. You can say the punishment is too strict, but you can't act like he was an innocent rape victim... Fuck off with that bullshit.
Herbspiceguy
Member
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't expect the same abuse/torture on a westerner, especially now the case has blown up in the media.
Ouch. The punishments does seem harsh over there...
I get religion should be respected in these countries. It's their cultures, their laws. But unplugging an amp and in your linked case posting something on facebook results in prison?
Ouch...
Chuckie
Member
Saying that harsh sentences in Myanmar for blasphemy are ok (even though they are not ok in for instance Western culture) because they are considered ok in Myanmar is cultural relativism. Saying we should allow child marriages because child marriages are ok in certain cultures is cultural relativism.
Being a grumpy sleep deprived asshole and unplugging an amplifier is just being that.
What a silly response. My parents live in sri Lanka, I am very familiar with how the religion has been abused and twisted by the government and many of the larger temples to become a way to get wealthy and exert power over people. At no point did I say all temples are guilty of it, that's something you injected into my post to rationalize your condescending nonsense of a post. But to deny that the biggest and most influential temples aren't guilty of wealth hoarding and using religious guilt to encourage donations is disingenuous. Buddhism has become a victim of greedy and powerful men in a nation with a long history of ignoring its Buddhist doctrine in order to commit atrocities.
As far as staying away from somewhere if you don't like one aspect of it, that's one of the stupidest attitudes I've ever heard. You can love a place without liking all aspects of it. Prayers and demands of donation blasted through loudspeakers is inappropriate and aggressive and goes against the very essence of Buddhism, something many Buddhist themselves agree with as you can see from posts earlier in this thread.
There's a defense force for everything, even for excessive punishments in Myanmar.
Nostremitus
Member
Again with the false equivalencies... stop. This is nothing like legal rape, or being punished for being raped, it's nothing like legal child marriages, it's not... If you actually have something to discuss on topic, then please do, but stop changing the subject to other, actual issues, to support your non-issue.
Also, you still don't understand what cultural relativism is, you have it backwards. Please read the definition again.
And yes, what he did would be illegal in the U.S. as well.
I don't agree with their prison system, but that is a completely different topic with regard to whether this guy committed a crime and was rightfully charged. (notice, I said charged, not sentenced)
Also, don't forget that this guy chose to go to this country, and then chose to be an ass and be disruptive.
Just what? a trespassing vandal who obstructed other's rights to religious practice in their own country?
Chuckie
Member
No you re read it. Cultural relativism is accepting that right and wrong are determined within cultures, that certain customs can be accepted in one culture and not in another.
Also child marriage is not a false analogy at all. It is accepted and and legal in certain cultures.
But I am indeed done with discussion. It was extremely naive of me to think it was possible to reason with people who think unplugging an amplifier warrants three months of hard labor.
Lmao at the total hyperbole. Yeah I am done with you.
Oh god, yes. Plus it was THEM breaking the law, not the angry tourist. Wtf?? Buddha would be shaking his head.
Add Myanmar to the list of nations that I didn't know existed.
Lot of people here showing their dark side. The guy should do his research better and be smarter about these things, but this is totally excessive. Torture and hard labor is not an acceptable punishment for this. If you sincerely think that torture and hard labor is an acceptable punishment for this then I don't even know what to say to you. Well, except, you know, fuck off.
And yeah maybe just not go to fucking Myanmar. Lots and lots of places to be spenind your vacation in.
And yeah maybe just not go to fucking Myanmar. Lots and lots of places to be spenind your vacation in.
You have to be a total douchebag, to go to a different culture and be that oblivious of their culture. That's like visiting Istanbul and throw a scene because your Airbnb happens to be right next to the Hagia Sophia mosque.
That punishment tho.... *obamasweat*. 3 months in a labor camp will turn his pasty ass inside out.
That punishment tho.... *obamasweat*. 3 months in a labor camp will turn his pasty ass inside out.
Just because it's a punishment based on law, is it not understandable that maybe laws and punishments can be wrong or too severe even if it is punishable the same way somewhere else?
Maybe they should change their laws.
Nostremitus
Member
I would urge you to read about cultural relativism and educate yourself.
And yes... comparing a guy getting sentenced for committing a crime... one that even western cultures could have charged him for.. to rape or child marriage is completely inappropriate. You have an argument against their sentencing, but his crime was a crime that he chose to commit. Trespassing, vandalism, and misdemeanor obstruction of religious practices could have been his charges in the U.S. if the DA chose to really hammer his actions home. Just that last one, the obstruction of religious practices can get you up to a year in prison in the U.S. if the people at the religious service he obstructed say he made any sort of threatening actions or said anything threatening to them...
Quite simply, don't fuck with other people's rights, especially when you are a visitor in another culture. and don't take the law into your own hands, again, especially when you are a visitor in another culture...
You should look up the definition of this word too... listing the actual names of his actions based on U.S. law for the purpose of comparison is not hyperbole... equating his charges to punishment for being raped or child marriage with no basis other than to say something reactionary is hyperbole.
Yes, maybe they should change the laws. But that's another discussion.
Chuckie
Member
I don't know if he was trespassing, it might have been a public place.
Vandalism is deliberate destruction or damaging of objects, this was not the case
If he was actually obstructing their rights is questionable too, considering the temple was breaking the law with their speakers.
No that's ethnocentrism. Which is the opposite of cultural relativism. It seems to be you who is misreading the definition.
The other in the definition would be us. The individual would be a Burmese's actions understood by their morals.
Coriolanus
Banned
For some reason a whole lotta people legit think that dura lex, sed lex is a good posture.
Anecdotal evidence tends to lean towards those same people having quite a rosy ideas about how legal systems tend to work.
AlimNassor
Banned
Because the guy isn't getting a cushy prison sentence. He's being sent to a forced labor prison where it's likely he'll be tortured.
Nostremitus
Member
It was a Buddhist Center, if he went there in order to disrupt their practice and they asked him to leave and he didn't, then it would become trespassing in the U.S.
Moving someone else's belongings without their permission with malicious intent can be vandalism. ei, rearranging someone's flower pots, moving their garden gnomes, taking down or reorganizing someone's decorations, deactivating their electric devices such as Christmas lights or in this case their speaker system...
The last part, maybe... In the U.S. you'd still need to contact the authorities and have them speak to them, or you know... speak to them yourself, or though a translator... You don't just go over and unplug other people's shit because you don't like it. But then, we don't typically have curfews on religious practices in the U.S. so... it's not completely the same, but close enough to be relative.
The thing that I had in my comment that you quoted, is the exact definition of cultural relativism. verbatim. I wasn't paraphrasing. That's the actual definition.
Here's some good reading material on the subject.
https://www.boundless.com/sociology...hnocentrism-and-cultural-relativism-186-4770/
Proper cultural relativism allows you to realize that you are being affected by your own cultural norms and try to work past them. Trying to view the situation without your own culture's views, sense of morality, or norms getting in the way is cultural relativism done right. It is a means to avoid ethnocentrism. That's why I said it was misguided cultural relativism when the distinction is made so that you know that you are being affected by your norms, but then trying to find a way to place your norms on the situation anyway. I could have described it better... I realize now that I wasn't being very clear.
Oppo
Member
a blasphemy defense force even on GAF.
fine the guy for sure but any prison and especially hard labour is way, way, WAY over the top.
some frankly disgusting religious defense posts here. "make him suffer"? get fucked. let's see you defend caning or lashes for blasphemy in SA or similar.
spazchicken makes my ultra exclusive Ignore list.
fine the guy for sure but any prison and especially hard labour is way, way, WAY over the top.
some frankly disgusting religious defense posts here. "make him suffer"? get fucked. let's see you defend caning or lashes for blasphemy in SA or similar.
spazchicken makes my ultra exclusive Ignore list.
I think there are two negatives here, but one very much outweighs the other.
On one hand we have a tourist who is clearly a douchebag. Why is he a douchebag? Because not only does he take reckless action to fix a personal annoyance, but his defense after being caught is to claim he had no idea what he was doing or what the source of his annoyance really was. Whether he is being truthful or not, at best it is ignorance and at worst it is a lameass attempt to cover his ass. We don't need to defend the guy for his actions or justify them. He's the sort of tourist no one wants in their country.
On the OTHER hand, you have what appears to be a disruptive and annoying local practice where noise pollution is allowed to continue beyond reasonable hours which appear to be unlawful to begin with. A practice which even locals have complained against and seem unsupportive of. So when you have a douchebag who recklessly rebels against what is already recognized as a local annoyance, while you certainly don't want to encourage or reward his behavior, it is simply impossible to see how 3 months of hard labor is proportional punishment.
It is entirely possible to recognize that a person did something wrong, and still be against the consequences the person had to suffer. If someone walks up to a police officer and calls his sister a cunt, and he gets shot in retaliation, no one should celebrate the shooting. That doesn't mean the guy wasn't being rude, it just means if being rude to someone gets you killed, it reflects worse on the person doing the killing.
On one hand we have a tourist who is clearly a douchebag. Why is he a douchebag? Because not only does he take reckless action to fix a personal annoyance, but his defense after being caught is to claim he had no idea what he was doing or what the source of his annoyance really was. Whether he is being truthful or not, at best it is ignorance and at worst it is a lameass attempt to cover his ass. We don't need to defend the guy for his actions or justify them. He's the sort of tourist no one wants in their country.
On the OTHER hand, you have what appears to be a disruptive and annoying local practice where noise pollution is allowed to continue beyond reasonable hours which appear to be unlawful to begin with. A practice which even locals have complained against and seem unsupportive of. So when you have a douchebag who recklessly rebels against what is already recognized as a local annoyance, while you certainly don't want to encourage or reward his behavior, it is simply impossible to see how 3 months of hard labor is proportional punishment.
It is entirely possible to recognize that a person did something wrong, and still be against the consequences the person had to suffer. If someone walks up to a police officer and calls his sister a cunt, and he gets shot in retaliation, no one should celebrate the shooting. That doesn't mean the guy wasn't being rude, it just means if being rude to someone gets you killed, it reflects worse on the person doing the killing.
Chuckie
Member
That is the definition, but you aren't applying it correctly at all
Western guy who forces his Western cultural values unto the culture he is visiting is not cultural relativism.
Accepting other cultures have other values and definitions of right and wrong is cultural relativism. Extreme or misguided cultural relativism is when you accept something that is clearly absurd or evil and brush it off as 'part of their culture'
Now what is considered extreme or misguided is indeed subjective. I for instance think that the two years in prison for that guy because he posted a picture of Buddha with headphones is ridiculous. Within the culture of Myanmar it is an acceptable punishment.
I think we ought to criticize these harsh laws on blasphemy, an extreme cultural relativist would say: It is their culture. End of story.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Is that even true though? I mean obviously under the authority of the law, it was considered acceptable, but was it something culturally accepted or a case of the authorities making an example of someone? Because iirc, the guy ended up being pardoned or something.
Chuckie
Member
Considering there was a lynch mob outside the prison I would say yeah it is true.
I would say it was not only considered acceptable but even too lenient for some.
Nostremitus
Member
I never said the punishment fit the crime. I was arguing that the guy did in fact commit a crime and did deserve to be charged for his actions. Agreeing that he should have been charged and agreeing with the sentencing are two different things.
Damn. Good thing he managed to get the fuck out.
Completely excessive punishment, imo.
And it really seems like some people are almost blaming this guy for this countries cruel and unusual punishments by saying things like, "he should have known better" ... How is this different from telling minorities that they should have known better when they question a cop, but get shot anyway? Even if they are guilty of SOMETHING, they don't deserve the punishment of being killed for that minor transgression, right?
Some of these replies sound eerily a lot like, "well if you just do what the cop says you wouldn't have had this problem" ... and this is even assuming the guy was in the wrong, and guilty of unplugging a speaker. Such a minor transgression should not be met with a 3-month prison sentence, imo.
And it really seems like some people are almost blaming this guy for this countries cruel and unusual punishments by saying things like, "he should have known better" ... How is this different from telling minorities that they should have known better when they question a cop, but get shot anyway? Even if they are guilty of SOMETHING, they don't deserve the punishment of being killed for that minor transgression, right?
Some of these replies sound eerily a lot like, "well if you just do what the cop says you wouldn't have had this problem" ... and this is even assuming the guy was in the wrong, and guilty of unplugging a speaker. Such a minor transgression should not be met with a 3-month prison sentence, imo.
Machine
Member
I believe the poster was using analogy. Analogy is NOT the same as equivalence. Analogies are similar in some respects but can differ in other respects (including DEGREE). It gets tiring when people throw around the term "false equivalence" all the time when they don't understand or don't wish to acknowledge a true analogy.
robotzombie
Member
you should tell him to look up the definition
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
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Because this is so relevant
I just remember, maybe prior Obama, that the US didn't recognise Myanmar.
I still see "Burmese" used in the UK (especially for food etc.)
radios shipping overview
Member
I think it's pretty clear that somebody wanted an example made out of this guy. They want it known to the outside world that in Myanmar, you do not fuck with the Buddhists, even when it's something as petty as unplugging an amp. Myanmar's government is playing at being open and democratic, but it seems to me they're still assholes in the end.
I watched the Bourdain episode on Myanmar, and honestly that's all the information I need about that country. I'd never go there.
I watched the Bourdain episode on Myanmar, and honestly that's all the information I need about that country. I'd never go there.
Bright-Light
Member
This.
They should just make him sit in a room for 24 hours with speakers blasting Buddhist Chants at an unreasonably high volume.
Would make a good series finale.
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