Since when is this game considered mainstream? It falls squarely in the niche visual novel category.
My Beef with Summer Lesson
- Thread starter Dylan
- Start date
Since when is this game considered mainstream? It falls squarely in the niche visual novel category.
it isn't?
news to me, I guess.
I think people really overestimate how big their little circle really is. Most people don't and won't ever know what this game is. Localization or not.
Hmmm I don't have the data but I'm willing to be proven wrong. The audience for this is much bigger due to the marketing push as a PSVR headline title.
Battlechili
Banned
I don't really think this game has much popularity outside of small niche appeal. VR itself isn't hugely mainstream, at least not at the moment, and this title being what it is, has very niche appeal. There may be some interested in it due to the novelty of VR, but I believe the simple fact that its anime-y and has very little gameplay to offer will put off most players and keep it niche. The fact that it isn't getting a release in the West alone I think is indicative of this.
I will say though, that I do not believe video games, regardless of how disgusting the content of them may be, harms players psychologically and influences them to be more likely to cause harm to others and/or treat others poorly. I believe that to think this is to belittle other human beings as being unable to think for themselves and/or utilize proper self-control. To think that people are unable to think about what they are saying and doing before they do them. I can understand taking concern over who may like such content as Summer Lesson as well as other titles including your extreme example however. But I do not think you should assume the worst of people who play something like Summer Lesson, especially since its far, FAR tamer than the title that you're suggesting. The titles aren't really comparable.
Furthermore, your response is likely better suited as a response towards Illusion's pornographic lookalike game for Summer Lesson rather than Summer Lesson itself, as its more relevant there than it is here.
I believe Mik's response is taking issue with your extreme reaction as well as insults towards players who may play and/or be interested in this game rather than saying anything substantial. Its rude and doesn't add much to the discussion.
I will say though, that I do not believe video games, regardless of how disgusting the content of them may be, harms players psychologically and influences them to be more likely to cause harm to others and/or treat others poorly. I believe that to think this is to belittle other human beings as being unable to think for themselves and/or utilize proper self-control. To think that people are unable to think about what they are saying and doing before they do them. I can understand taking concern over who may like such content as Summer Lesson as well as other titles including your extreme example however. But I do not think you should assume the worst of people who play something like Summer Lesson, especially since its far, FAR tamer than the title that you're suggesting. The titles aren't really comparable.
Furthermore, your response is likely better suited as a response towards Illusion's pornographic lookalike game for Summer Lesson rather than Summer Lesson itself, as its more relevant there than it is here.
Crash Station
Member
It's a game releasing in a market where consoles are dead and won't be getting a localization beyond its region.
The game is niche.
Jacksonlee
Member
isn't it apparent that we sexualize and have urges towards teenage girls? the game, akin to Lolita or other narratives, stands to contextualize our fucked up desires for the taboo.
joecanada
Member
Although I know this game isn't remotely close to being rated like 18+ ... VR in general makes me wonder where people's threshold is for acceptable video game vr simulators. Like someone brought up murder sims but something like a gta is just above a cartoon tbh ... It's not lifelike at all.
Now what if it actually was a murder sim in vr where you could pick up young women hitchhiking.... Or a vr sim of your life but then you have a bitch wife you decide you want gone.
Likewise with the rape or other sex crimes... At what point would it cross the line?
Or would we still just get multiple posts saying "they aren't real people you know" . I find this thread much more interesting than the game lol.
Now what if it actually was a murder sim in vr where you could pick up young women hitchhiking.... Or a vr sim of your life but then you have a bitch wife you decide you want gone.
Likewise with the rape or other sex crimes... At what point would it cross the line?
Or would we still just get multiple posts saying "they aren't real people you know" . I find this thread much more interesting than the game lol.
It's a PSVR game exclusive to Japan (and other Asian territories) that are struggling with console sales; let alone extras like this.
Just keep living in denial bro, it's ok liking this game doesn't make you a creep.
And yet you managed to be one of the worst persons in this thread. Makes you think
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Uh. Fuck. No.
Armitage Shanks
Member
Lol, no Lolita does in no way "contextualize our fucked up desires for the taboo", it denounces it completely, it just makes us feel complex feelings towards Humbert Humbert. We detest him for his sick desires, yet we also sympathise...somewhat.
Having given Summer Lesson a quick whirl... it make me feel deeply uncomfortable. The way in the beginning she gets all in your face, the game itself accepts that I am a pervy perv perving over a schoolgirl and because, well, I'm not, it felt really jarring and uncomfortable.
"Look at her bra strap! Phoaar!"
"Um, no thanks, I'd rather not..."
"Phoaaar eh, eh, nudge nudge wink wink! Look at her!"
ugh.
Crash Station
Member
It's a fascinating discussion. On its own, these will always be nothing more than victimless crimes no matter how depraved they get.
But then comes in the increasingly complex conversation on just what it does to the player psychologically. Assuming they're just power fantasies (or other kind of fantasies), then whatever. But what about someone that actually has those desires playing such titles? Does it act as a means to prevent them from carrying out their desires in reality, or does it encourage them to act on it further? Right now, it seems studies would suggest the former, but that doesn't take into account the level of immersion of VR (and eventually full-dive VR) can achieve.
Which brings us to the discussion of whether such content should be outlawed due to what would likely be a minority of any given audience at the expense of the rest of the audience that has no desire of carrying out depraved acts in reality. Assuming of course that the content would be considered 100% harmful for that portion of the audience.
It's an interesting discussion that we'll be having in our lifetime, possibly alongside the morality of high-functioning robots and depraved tasks they can be used for (like sexbots catering to every fetish/paraphilia), though that may not happen in our lifetime.
Just keep living in denial bro, it's ok liking this game doesn't make you a creep.
so you are saying a game in which you are teaching a girl in her room, whilst small events that may allow you to get close is the exact same thing as a game in which you RAPE people.
this is your stance on things?
I mean ok. You are wrong but do you I guess.
I'm not about to sit here and act like this game is all about teaching the girl. It isn't. The idea is to interact with an AI girl, and all that may entail up until a certain point. Its nothing new in that regard. The VR aspect is the cool part but to compare that to rape is just a major leap in logic.
and that is exactly why there is pushback. No one wants to be called a rapist or pedo...even if that wasn't your intention. Know that is exactly what you and many others are doing.
we all have our own fetishes, and as weird and loopy as they may be, unless we actively act on them being called a rapist or pedo is a bit unfair, no?
D1renegade
Member
This.
Until it's proven, that video games are the direct link to bad behavior in real life, the critics have nothing to stand on besides their high horse.
He's just shitposting, ignore it.
Battlechili
Banned
;_;
At least an English Asia version will be present. Though I'm not sure how accessible it will be considering it's PSN only.
Tezzeractor
Member
I'd actually argue that that debate will absolutely happen in our lifetime.
I know but I can't just let that shit slide.
i can't imagine anyone else getting away with entering a GTA thread and comparing it to fucking rapeplay and just being allowed to waltz out of the thread.
there is a weird double standard that goes on at times that bugs the hell out of me.
Let's say a game claims to be a "Police Officer Sim" where you are the cop and you run the daily routine of policework.
You boot up the game and you notice, through limitations of the games' mechanics that you have no choice but to only arrest black people. The game makes no mention or comment on this, but it's pretty obvious that this is what's going on.
Now, it has never been proven that doing this in a game is associated with racial profiling in real life, but that in no way protects it from harsh and well deserved criticism.
Questions like "What are the motivations behind making this game?" and "Why do people want to play such a game and what does it say about those people?" I think, are totally valid.
It only takes five minutes to make an HK PSN account, you don't need a credit card for anything.
Crash Station
Member
Edit: This is wildly off-topic
thats not even close to being the same....
its like people are skipping a step here to what this game actually is.
Crash Station
Member
That's absolutely a valid question and something kept in mind in every creative medium.
First statement I again agree with, but the second seems pretty close to shaming in my eyes.
People have given reasons in this thread. I'll say again for me, the technology behind it and the stat-whoring aspect.
This is not an apt comparison at all. Like, really, *really* poor.
I didn't want to post this earlier because it would surely have massively derailed the thread, but for the copious amount of posts which state essentially "There is no link between video games and behavior" - I posit that it isn't that cut and dry.
Here's a meta-analysis from the an American Psychological Association publication from 2010. Since the publication is available online I'll post the abstract here:
Do I personally believe that these effects are so extreme as to cause someone to want to act out the scenarios in games? I'd say barring some mental health disorder, no I don't think it's likely. I also don't think studies on video games influencing aggression can translate directly to video games influencing ogling behaviors, however I personally wouldn't be surprised if there was some effect, especially in younger individuals.
Anyway, all I'm trying to say in this post is that the "there's zero evidence" / "no relationship" arguments are demonstrably false when you look at the actual scientific literature.
Here's a meta-analysis from the an American Psychological Association publication from 2010. Since the publication is available online I'll post the abstract here:
Do I personally believe that these effects are so extreme as to cause someone to want to act out the scenarios in games? I'd say barring some mental health disorder, no I don't think it's likely. I also don't think studies on video games influencing aggression can translate directly to video games influencing ogling behaviors, however I personally wouldn't be surprised if there was some effect, especially in younger individuals.
Anyway, all I'm trying to say in this post is that the "there's zero evidence" / "no relationship" arguments are demonstrably false when you look at the actual scientific literature.
You are more than welcome to explain why. I don't bite.
Crash Station
Member
Considering he directly accused this game's audience (which this thread includes) of being pedophiles, I doubt he'll get away with it.
Edit: Yep
Actually, the "it" (本作
can only refer to the product itself.So, uh, context.
The article you're excerpting from is relaying their impressions of the TGS stage demo of Summer Lesson given on press day. You're right that there's a big emphasis on close-range human interaction. That is basically the selling point. As the article says, loosely translating, "As her teacher, the player chooses subjects, gives study advice, and helps her get better grades. But ultimately, the main draw is building a "rapport" with the character, something that hasn't changed from the original tech demo."
The sentence you picked there is a sentence fragment of "会場に足を運ぶ予定の人は，一足早く本作に触れてみよう。" from the very end of the article. It means, "If you're planning on coming to the hall (aka to TGS), hurry over to try it hands-on." I don't really think it's a double-entendre, though I don't read a lot of these kinds of articles.
There's enough to think about here without diving into Japanese articles you can't really read. I think it's really cool that someone's making a VR game that really focuses on modeling the physicality of social interaction in this way. That kind of interaction is something VR can do uniquely well, and I hope more developers explore it. But Summer Lesson as a product is also a weirdly voyeuristic thing which I'm not sure how I'd feel about in practice. It's worth asking these kinds of questions about the sorts of social interactions we're modeling with game characters, and whether developers have any new responsibilities as the fidelity of those interactions increases. There's a lot to unpack even without all the cross-cultural baggage.
Battlechili
Banned
Didn't the APA do a similar study more recently, to which it was admitted by the APA that "However, the meta‐analyses we reviewed included very few longitudinal studies, and none of those that were included considered enough time points to examine the developmental trajectory of violent video game use and associated outcomes."? That basically there isn't any evidence of long-term effects? Not to mention, measuring aggression can also be a bit tricky.
Making all of the criminals black would stem from conscious racism, and would have been designed to convey the creator's idea that "black people are bad." It casts a single race as antagonistic, and would be purely malicious.
To say that Summer Lesson is in any way comparable to that train of thought is ridiculous.
Arresting ONLY black people is not the same as interacting with a AI Girl. Hell in the latter you could even choose to not ogge if you wanted (probably defeats the purpose tho).
The first one can ONLY be construed as Black people are bad, the latter is far more open to the user.
It is a poor example. There is no simple limitation that would make it so the only criminals to be caught just so happens to be black, that is an intended choice or at the very least a poor ass one.
this is a poor example. And only serves to again show you don't know what the game really is beyond you preconceived notions.
AND if even if the game was seedier than it is, it still wouldn't be comparable. Again not going to front, I am not interested in this game or anything like it (if only because its awkward and seems boring at the end of the day), I DO think it has merit and it an interesting use of the technology. I am also not going to ignore the fetishization of the situation in which the game takes place. It is "hey bro, you get to "tutor" and get close to a girl" that is one of the selling points for sure...however, I don't think one can make the massive leap to rape and being a pedo, that often goes on in these threads. Its annoying and adds fuck all to any conversation. NO ONE wants to have a discussion in which the other side thinks of them as pieces of shit from the jump, there is no discussion to be had and all it serves is for good posters to lose their cool at the shitposts and get permed as they try to defend themselves for the mob. Its annoying as fuck because often (not saying you...) the thread creator is approaching the discussion with their minds already made up and only looking for confirmation whilst looking down from their ivory tower at all the peasants that enjoy this schlock. I hate it and yet this is the constant level of discord on this board lately that quite frankly makes it hell on earth to wade through. "bu-but don't click on it then", yeah true but how come thats a good reason for me to stay away but not for you guys to just enjoy the shit you enjoy but not allow others to do the same? I know, its a weird cycle but I cannot stand by while people are passive aggressively called shit from not being up in arms about at the end of the day a goddam video game that one can easily avoid. Especially since in many other context it isn't allowed (although I see that guy got banned...so I'll shut up now)
/rant (sorry needed to get that off my chest)
I think you're referring to this comment which criticizes the original authors' statistical methodologies.
That comment was then cited in this more recent 2014 meta-analysis which concluded that yes, video games do affect social outcomes.
The interesting thing about the latter article, btw, is that they determined that violent games increased aggression whereas prosocial games have the opposite effect. I personally think this makes intuitive sense from a neuroscience perspective as well.
Again, I'm not saying these allow us to draw any conclusions about Summer Lesson (back on topic), but just putting it out there as a counterpoint to the "video games do not influence behaviour" mantra.
Mike Works
Member
Been staring at this post for a minute trying to interpret its purpose.
If... you're not a tutor who gets spoon-fed by their french maid outfit-wearing student in real life, you shouldn't play Summer Lesson?
Sigh, I'll post the Craigslist Ad then
Crash Station
Member
To add to what's already been said, your scenario is something that no one in the current political climate that isn't living under a rock would see as anything but malicious. It MAY be a viable case study were people separated from any kind of modern culture to play the game and see nothing wrong with it, eventually being conditioned to accept said malicious traits after a long time, but that's really not the kind of scenario that people are talking about here.
I don't think you should take the comparison to the extreme, but it's a fair comparison. VR is a technology that enables a greater immersion so it should go hand in hand with a greater scrutiny of how it guides a player's agency.
I think OP's argument by drawing comparison to being only able to arrest Black people is interesting because that's the game guiding you to do something that you may or may not agree with (I presume there are racists out there who support that), but we would find it much easier to denounce.
In the same way, this game allows opportunities to engage in fantasies, with the gameplay specifically putting you in situations which are risque in nature. For example, this impression:
So whether or not you agree with the game's direction doesn't make you a racist or a perv, but the fact that it does what it does should be fair a point of moral discussion.
In persona 4 you are a high schooler who goes to a little boy's room to tutor him while often having discusions that don't directly correlate to you being there ti teach him. Despite being a student yourself, the boy calls you sensei. I'm not trying to say Summer Lesson is the exact same thing, just trying to give a similar situation depicted in a japanese video game to people who are weirded out by the very idea of you tutoring in her room.
Japanese media, specifically anime/manga/video games, has a fascination with high school. I would go so far as to say the majority of stories in anime and manga take place in a high school setting or at least involve high school age participants. With this, it isnt hard to see why Summer Lesson features a high schooler as your student, and yes considering the target market it is also onvious why they went with a girl over a boy. As was stated earlier by others, she is most likely around 16-17, old enough to have her mother concerned about her falling behind in her studying to get into college. Also noted earlier, her attitude toward the player indicates you are somewhat similar in age, as she does not act in a way tou would expect around a significantly older tutor. I would venture to guess that the intended age for the player story-wise is about 18-19, either a senior in high school or early college student. This is further reinforced by looking at popular anime and manga and realizing that the boys and girls in these high school setting are largely just that, all high schoolers of similar age.
People are worried that Summer Lesson is somehow going to open the gates to massive perversion taking over VR or having PSVR associated with "creepy japanese games" but Summer Lesson is one of a kind and only released in Japan (coming to asia with english subtitles later but still far away from an official western release), This is so far into niche territory it's a wonder how anyone thinks the larger public even knows it exists let alone knows what the game is. Hell in this very topic there have been several people who thought this game was a straight up romance and involved way more physical interaction than is even close to present, and neogaf members are way more i formed on niche japanese only games than the mass market.
Japanese media, specifically anime/manga/video games, has a fascination with high school. I would go so far as to say the majority of stories in anime and manga take place in a high school setting or at least involve high school age participants. With this, it isnt hard to see why Summer Lesson features a high schooler as your student, and yes considering the target market it is also onvious why they went with a girl over a boy. As was stated earlier by others, she is most likely around 16-17, old enough to have her mother concerned about her falling behind in her studying to get into college. Also noted earlier, her attitude toward the player indicates you are somewhat similar in age, as she does not act in a way tou would expect around a significantly older tutor. I would venture to guess that the intended age for the player story-wise is about 18-19, either a senior in high school or early college student. This is further reinforced by looking at popular anime and manga and realizing that the boys and girls in these high school setting are largely just that, all high schoolers of similar age.
People are worried that Summer Lesson is somehow going to open the gates to massive perversion taking over VR or having PSVR associated with "creepy japanese games" but Summer Lesson is one of a kind and only released in Japan (coming to asia with english subtitles later but still far away from an official western release), This is so far into niche territory it's a wonder how anyone thinks the larger public even knows it exists let alone knows what the game is. Hell in this very topic there have been several people who thought this game was a straight up romance and involved way more physical interaction than is even close to present, and neogaf members are way more i formed on niche japanese only games than the mass market.
Pantz
Member
Exactly that. Schoolgirls are just like race cars. Lust for speed is a dangerous and real thing. So in dealing with schoolgirls and race cars, you better be following the rules.
Exploding8
Member
I think its important to remember the context of where this game was made. The views of sex and sexuality in Japan are extremely different from how we view them in the West. Host and hostess clubs, maid cafes, soaplands, every crazy sex toy imaginable, there's a whole range of services dedicated to various aspects of "relationship replacement". Summer Lesson may seem strange and somewhat creepy from a Western / European perspective, but in Japan it honestly is pretty tame and fits right into the host/hostess club and maid cafe scene. Why go to a club and pay a girl to talk to you and pretend to be interested in you and cuddle with you when you can get a similar service in VR? Its not like experiences at a hostess club or a maid cafe are any more "real" or any less objectifying. In America (and I'm assuming other western / European cultures) there isn't anything in the real world that correlates with the experience, but it really does seem like a more involved VR version of a maid cafe or hostess club, where the experience isn't supposed to be explicitly sexual per-se, but more supposed to invoke feelings that a lot of Japanese people, especially men, are struggling to find these days, such as just having a simple conversation with a girl that they are attracted to who seems to care about them. If there's some fan service in there, some suggestive behavior that's never truly acted upon, some flirting, then even better.
TL
R; somewhat normal in Japan, creepy in America and I assume most other western cultures where "relationship replacement" isn't really a thing outside of straight up sexual services.
TL
R; somewhat normal in Japan, creepy in America and I assume most other western cultures where "relationship replacement" isn't really a thing outside of straight up sexual services.Guess this is going to be my last comment on this thread here as i feel this thread had been going everywhere with people coming with their own agenda to promote what they believe rather than the game itself.
I don't see the problem with Summer Lesson at all as for me, this is simply not a new thing in gaming.
This game is simply like a dating sims but focused more on building relations with your student however with some teaching mechanics.
I mean, we had Love Plus which actually pushes for more relationship building between the player and the game character and i don't see much complain about that game here and why does Summer Lesson become so much trouble?
VR and the fact that it brought immersion into another level is why now we had this controversy. If this game is just a simple game on lets said console or normal handheld, i don't think anyone will give a damn. Or, some people who loved VR just can't accept this type of game being associated with them as they want their precious gaming to be seen as pure and grown up thing with no perversion allowed lol.
I don't see the problem with Summer Lesson at all as for me, this is simply not a new thing in gaming.
This game is simply like a dating sims but focused more on building relations with your student however with some teaching mechanics.
I mean, we had Love Plus which actually pushes for more relationship building between the player and the game character and i don't see much complain about that game here and why does Summer Lesson become so much trouble?
VR and the fact that it brought immersion into another level is why now we had this controversy. If this game is just a simple game on lets said console or normal handheld, i don't think anyone will give a damn. Or, some people who loved VR just can't accept this type of game being associated with them as they want their precious gaming to be seen as pure and grown up thing with no perversion allowed lol.
SolicitorPirate
Member
I get where you're coming from, but I don't know. Maybe I'm just being overly cynical, but I have pretty severe doubts this game would have anywhere near the same level of interest if the game was exactly the same but the character was a guy or a woman who wasn't conventionally attractive.
Just because Japan is an extremely sexist country does not make this any less okay. I think this kind of dismissive argument toward Japanese culture is very unhealthy.I think its important to remember the context of where this game was made. The views of sex and sexuality in Japan are extremely different from how we view them in the West. Host and hostess clubs, maid cafes, soaplands, every crazy sex toy imaginable, there's a whole range of services dedicated to various aspects of "relationship replacement". Summer Lesson may seem strange and somewhat creepy from a Western / European perspective, but in Japan it honestly is pretty tame and fits right into the host/hostess club and maid cafe scene. Why go to a club and pay a girl to talk to you and pretend to be interested in you and cuddle with you when you can get a similar service in VR? Its not like experiences at a hostess club or a maid cafe are any more "real" or any less objectifying. In America (and I'm assuming other western / European cultures) there isn't anything in the real world that correlates with the experience, but it really does seem like a more involved VR version of a maid cafe or hostess club, where the experience isn't supposed to be explicitly sexual per-se, but more supposed to invoke feelings that a lot of Japanese people, especially men, are struggling to find these days, such as just having a simple conversation with a girl that they are attracted to who seems to care about them. If there's some fan service in there, some suggestive behavior that's never truly acted upon, some flirting, then even better.
TL
These kinds of experiences, maid clubs and the like all exist because men have all the power in Japan. They're protected and because of that they're free to live out their fantasy that women are dolls/pets, that they are objects and have no worth other than to be obedient and to serve men. Since these men don't know how to communicate/face with women but still have a desire to talk to women these kinds of experiences are offered to help satisfy their desire. It's fucking sick. It's wrong. Women should not be degraded to such low levels and we should not reserve our judgements of this practice because we, as westerns, look at Japan and think, "yeah, they're weird, what do you expect?"
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The bolded needs to be put into the OP of EVERY thread like this. Seriously. "It's just the way it is in Japan" is not an excuse whatsoever, will never be a valid excuse, and people who use that argument unironically seriously need some more self awareness, "Well Japan is just really sexist and creepy." My answer to that is that shit like this game certainly isn't helping matters whatsoever, only reinforcing very VERY bad cultural trends.
Crash Station
Member
Probably not, but I'm only speaking for myself here and don't really care about the motivations of other prospective players. Homely or pretty, the technology and A.I. is what I'm in it for.