Giolon
Member
Host clubs and butler bars also exist in Japan for women.
My Beef with Summer Lesson
- Thread starter Dylan
- Start date
Host clubs and butler bars also exist in Japan for women.
Exploding8
Member
Except that that's not the case at all. These exact services exist for women as well. Host clubs, "maid cafe's" where the "maids" are all macho dudes, sex toys for women. Walk into a sex shop in Akihabara and more then half the patrons there are women. If anything the Women are sick of the men being so shy, hence the terms "Herbivorous men" and "carnivorous women".
Crash Station
Member
I consider that an insult, but I doubt you'll see this post as I imagine you already put me on ignore seeing as you didn't respond to my last post that had a source you were asking for in it.
Is it creepy? Kinda in my opinion
However, this comes off as more for lonely otaku than perverts looking to take advantage of high school girls. It lonely otaku = perverts is your own opinion.
I don't think this game is bad and shouldn't exist. I just think this is way more tame than stuff like the DoAX3 VR which is pure pervert fetish fuel.
However, this comes off as more for lonely otaku than perverts looking to take advantage of high school girls. It lonely otaku = perverts is your own opinion.
I don't think this game is bad and shouldn't exist. I just think this is way more tame than stuff like the DoAX3 VR which is pure pervert fetish fuel.
Crash Station
Member
IIRC, host clubs make more money than hostess clubs, so it absolutely goes both ways.
I would honestly research the industry if you really feel this way. Like a lot of the thread, its filled with misinformation about the purpose and culture. Not to say there isn't a lot of fucked up aspects about Japan's culture and gender norms, but it's best to actually analyze the issues and not throw in ones that don't exist.
encephalon
Member
Actually, the "it" (本作can only refer to the product itself.
So, uh, context.
The article you're excerpting from is relaying their impressions of the TGS stage demo of Summer Lesson given on press day. You're right that there's a big emphasis on close-range human interaction. That is basically the selling point. As the article says, loosely translating, "As her teacher, the player chooses subjects, gives study advice, and helps her get better grades. But ultimately, the main draw is building a "rapport" with the character, something that hasn't changed from the original tech demo."
The sentence you picked there is a sentence fragment of "会場に足を運ぶ予定の人は，一足早く本作に触れてみよう。" from the very end of the article. It means, "If you're planning on coming to the hall (aka to TGS), hurry over to try it hands-on." I don't really think it's a double-entendre, though I don't read a lot of these kinds of articles.
There's enough to think about here without diving into Japanese articles you can't really read. I think it's really cool that someone's making a VR game that really focuses on modeling the physicality of social interaction in this way. That kind of interaction is something VR can do uniquely well, and I hope more developers explore it. But Summer Lesson as a product is also a weirdly voyeuristic thing which I'm not sure how I'd feel about in practice. It's worth asking these kinds of questions about the sorts of social interactions we're modeling with game characters, and whether developers have any new responsibilities as the fidelity of those interactions increases. There's a lot to unpack even without all the cross-cultural baggage.
I can read it just fine, thanks, but I did make a mistake while quickly skimming through three or four articles.
Are you suggesting that it's impossible for them to be suggesting a double entendre in the Japanese? I find that hard to believe.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's called reinforcing the status quo, when the status quo is constantly reinforced things don't get changed for the better.
The main point is,I don't see this kind of thing changing through games. Thats it.
If u wanted a better change, u should focus maybe on the government policies? or maybe culture redevelopment? Not on a game though.
If you feel that you know more about Japanese society than my Japanese friend sitting right next to me as we read this thread then by all means, I'll let her take the wheel and you can show off your knowledge of her culture.
That is 100% the case. Japanese culture is extremely sexist. I've posted in this thread a few other times talking about it, if you care to read though it.
Crash Station
Member
I'm honestly not sure what the difference is. She's still in Japan being taught Japanese, right? So she'd probably be wearing the uniform.
Why do you say that? Unless they put her in school, I don't see why the blonde girl would wear a uniform.
So the Japanese girl is still in school and the first impression YouTube videos I've seen reflect that (e.g. game discusses her school schedule like her club activities, etc.).
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Games can be part of the catalyst for change. Just take a look at how much more inclusive gaming is in the west. I mean hell, take a look at star wars reflecting a much more modern audience while we get games like AC:Syndicate, Horizon, and Dishonored 2.
Akhe
Member
Yeah, everyone has their free will. If it's a - 18 girls, rape games etc etc I absolutely hate it! BUT the same argument should be included the violent, robbery, sadistic, blood bath, gore, splatter and torture west games that most people in west does not have a single problem. A eternal war with Japanese vs Western taste.
You mean a game on a small, experimental platform took the safe route by appealing to the largest, most lucrative demographic that they could, given current market circumstances? Absolutely shocking, I'm totes blown away.
This isn't the type of product to ignite widespread cultural reform. Stuff like this will always exist, whether you like it or not.
Crash Station
Member
No I mean that she'd probably be wearing the school uniform as it would be an afterschool lesson or something.
Let me expand on my point and say I never said Japanese society at large wasn't sexist and far behind many western countries when it comes to women rights and social norms. However, entertainment is a different beast entirely. There are products that cater directly to women there in some mediums where there is no comparable market elsewhere (video games for example). I'd say it's more of a nerd culture thing with your otakus and your fujoshis and whatnot, but it goes beyond that and part of that entails stuff like host/hostess clubs. There are some pretty thriving industries over there for women.
So my point was that attack the night-life entertainment industry just seems misdirected to me. Go after the views on pregnant women needing to resign because "they're not good anymore", or other massive black spots like sexual harassment issues in employment and trains.
Art is at the forefront of political and sociological change. Building a game to send a political message that fights against the status quo could absolutely be a catalyst for change. Just as a painting, movie, piece of music could as well.
Have you forgotten what effective propaganda is?
U are looking for a wrong game then. This is a game from the very first of its conception had targeted that relation seeker type of niche gamer. And i don't see the problem there.
It is not like this game is going to sold like gangbusters and suddenly effect the whole industry into pursuing this type of game more. This game will just go and be forgotten after some time.
If you wanted a game that can be a catalyst for change in Japan, u should look for big giant publisher game which reaches the mass like Nintendo here. They are the one who had the power to change Japanese gaming industry due to how huge their game penetration is.
And once again, Art....can also be just art. without any special message. Something for fun.
And really here. Do u see this game as some kind of propaganda here?
I qualified my language because I wasn't sure. It's possible! I can miss things when I'm reading sometimes.
But given that touching doesn't come up in the article anywhere else, and there's not really a sexual emphasis in the article, I think that reading would be out of place.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Small experimental platform can be used for way more thought provoking stuff than this.
The budget used for this game could've been spent on a game not targeting the same exact demographic as so many other Japanese games, (which are becoming more and more niche for a multitude of reasons, the blatant sexism and objectification being two), to do something interesting besides a borderline grooming simulator. Even Nintendo is a bit stagnate in terms of representation, Samus is all but reduced to cameos, Link apparently can't be a woman because of some flimsy out of touch excuses, etc.
The key point that you're missing here is the purpose of male clubs. The purpose being that, these clubs are visited by single, working women. Why? Because every single day that passes by, this woman is constantly berated with people asking her when will she get married and settle down? When will she have a relationship and stop being such a sad, embarrassing lonely woman. Because like I said before a woman's worth in Japan is equated to the man who chooses to marry her. So, in order for this woman who is being told day after day that she needs a man, indulges and disillusions herself into thinking she has a connection at this host club. That there is a man who wants her and because of how fucked up their culture is, this makes the woman feel a sense of self-worship.
Compare this to the female host clubs that I mentioned earlier. Completely different purpose. Both are delusional, both are there because of how misogynistic the culture is.
Just because it's "for fun" doesn't make it harmless.
And no, I was reenforcing my point by saying propaganda can change public opinion and propaganda is...art.
Exploding8
Member
I literally visited a girl's home in Japan, and when I woke up she was watching anime and eating breakfast in the living room. No one ever said anything negative about anime, every person I talked to watched anime and read manga in some form. Yes, otaku are a thing, and they are weird because they're overly obsessed, but the average person watches anime and reads manga from time to time
Also, Japan is statistically most definitely NOT the unhappiest country in the whole world, I have no idea where you got that impression. And I don't know where you got your stats for groping and sexual assault beyond hearsay; Japan is one of the safest countries in the world, and I imagine that extends to sexual assault as well.
All of these things are cultural traditions that are being thrown to the curb as the younger generations take control, its a process like anything else but its one they do seem to be making progress on. The reason these issues still exist is because corporations are based entirely on seniority, so the old racist and sexist managers still have power for now. As the young people rise through the ranks I think this will become less and less of an issue. I think this is entirely unrelated to media and more a cause of the seniority tradition in Japanese corporations.
In the bolded we seem to be on the same page, as that's all I was doing in my original post. Except my stance is more positive, as I have talked with younger people and have seen reasons to be optimistic that progress is being made. Yes, the old generations have these misogynistic views. They also have deep seated racially discriminating views against certain groups within their own society (such as the Burakumin). But the people in school and recently graduating don't hold these same values, and are more open and accepting.
In other words / TL;DR: I don't think these games and services are a reflection of sexual prejudice or discrimination. I think those issues are more the fault of older generations (who probably don't even engage in VR!) which traditionally hold the power in corporations as seniority trumps all, so the old sexist and racist people hold the power which causes gender discrimination in the workplace, which is admittedly an issue.
Why this matters for the topic: As I said in my original post, in the context of Japanese culture I think this VR game is relatively harmless/normal and has a perfectly acceptable place within the relationship replacement industry in Japan, and that it does not contribute to gender issues in Japan, which in my experience mostly stem from outdated views towards women held by the senior members of society which aren't even a target for this type of media.
Edit: still reasonable from a western view to see it as creepy, but important to view things from the context in which they were formed imo.
Neoleo2143
Member
Honestly, if you were to change some lines, you could probably make this a lot less creepy than it seems. I rather like that its explicitly an experience about interacting with another person. Low key even. VR was made more for stuff like this.
So, Problematic undertones with a creation that aims to make something interesting.
So, Problematic undertones with a creation that aims to make something interesting.
Funding and planned budgetary allocation for that even more niche thought-provoking stuff has to come from somewhere.
Funyarinpa
Member
Does only progressive art deserve to exist? Also, why does acting too casually to a girl you are supposed to teeach even imply anything sexual?
I disagree on how for fun can be harmful especially in this context a simple fanservice game which in Japan especially is a common thing.
And again, i am saying that not all art is propaganda. Some can just be art. Like a kids doodle can be called art but it sure had no deep meaning inside. Just a silly art,
We can talk on budget as much as we like but it sure is not a viable move to do in Japan right now.
PSVR is hefty and expensive hobby right now. Making a much safer title is not something wrong at all here. We can talk about making a game that is more experimental but i sure can't see that being economically viable at least at this stage of PSVR. If PSVR had grown bigger like in next year, then i can see more experimental title coming out as now the economic risk had decreased and devs will feel more safe to experiment on the platform.
And yet, Nintendo had been doing many things to empower woman too like having Squid Girl in Splatoon being the main forefront character, Animal Crossing being a game which targeted both gender equally, Tomodachi Life, Style Savvy and many more. I mean, even Mario now let us played as Peach and Rosalina which in a way i see as an improvement even if it is slow but they sure are improving.
Edit: Another addition, Elma in XenoX and of course most if not all woman in XenoX is surely damn powerful woman which even outshines many of the males in the game. Even Tokyo Mirage Session had many girls being competent too so that is that.
It cracks me up that so many discussions about women characters in games are centered around the lack of characterization, that women are not given elaborate histories or personalities and are just there to be love interests or sexual titilation.
Yet here is a game that does the opposite and the response is she's "too humanized" and it's creepy because naturally everyone wants to look up her skirt or down her shirt, or whatever the OP is implying.
It's a bit weird, in a fundamental way, to have a game attempt to emulate human interaction but it's entirely natural to feel affection for characters in games. People fall in love with their protagonists and allies all the time. This game doesn't let you take that anywhere though, it's entirely innocent. I'm sure that there's a market for a male-student that women in Japan will gobble up, too.
Yet here is a game that does the opposite and the response is she's "too humanized" and it's creepy because naturally everyone wants to look up her skirt or down her shirt, or whatever the OP is implying.
It's a bit weird, in a fundamental way, to have a game attempt to emulate human interaction but it's entirely natural to feel affection for characters in games. People fall in love with their protagonists and allies all the time. This game doesn't let you take that anywhere though, it's entirely innocent. I'm sure that there's a market for a male-student that women in Japan will gobble up, too.
Exploding8
Member
Most definitely; relevant: http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/06/...y-boy-on-boy-fantasies-at-ikebukuros-bl-cafe/
"Boy's Love" VR, make it happen Japan
As sonic pointed out, 本作 ("the product", "this work", etc.) can't really be used as a double entendre. Japanese doesn't really do wordplay like English does.
Same goes for 触れる ("touch", "experience", etc.). It's used in a wide variety of situations where you're able to try something like a demo at a booth.
Sure, it's not impossible for it to be suggestive. But while the language carries a lot of nuance, usually you'll know when they're being deliberately tongue-in-cheek. It's not a very subtle language in that sense
joecanada
Member
Well the thread was never really to promote the game though. Also as a dating sim I would say it's kind of weird then considering most here were arguing that you weren't meant to sexualize the young girl. Also the very idea of vr is that you live it so unless it says you are the other high schooler it seems kind of assumed that you are probably older unless it's high school aimed audience.
However again I'm not saying it's a victim here but as these games become more immersive it will be interesting to see if the games seem to have effect on a person or in fact the person is drawn to the experience, so you may have questionables drawn to certain games but it may not be the game producing or influencing a creepy behavior.
Again I could think of some pretty horrific games in vr. Imagine you live the life of Jeffrey Dahmer or you are a terrorist, I mean I don't know who would make these games but it makes you think doesn't it. Would people try them out just for the gut wrenching experiences or would they be panned? What if you had a simple sims type game but you could abuse your roommates?
Sephiroth_VII
Member
I really don't trust a CNN report to inform me on something like this, sorry. They rarely have any clue on what they're talking about when outside of the West. Especially when they're just relying on info from a private organisation, which might not know much about the situation in other countries. This kind of crime is under reported pretty much everywhere, except perhaps for Scandinavia, where it might even be over reported. If you want me to change my views, link me some scientific research indicating that it's more under reported in Japan than in western countries, and to what extent.
Japanese people always talk like their country is a criminal hotbed(it's not), which is why I don't trust a Japanese organisation to have much perspective of how they compare internationally. Frankly, Japan is so low on the list that it would take A LOT for them to even get close to the top.
Mike Works
Member
Why is she covering her body like she's naked here?
Crash Station
Member
What you're describing is escapism, which a lot of entertainment is. External factors may play a part in the developing of any industry, but it becomes a separate thing when it's established regardless of who is targeted. It's the same as saying Pachinko parlors are there for the gambling addicts whose life is in the gutter and is the abuser in an abusive relationship. There's obviously going to be those kinds of people visiting those places, and said places will be more than happy to have their business, but the purpose of them isn't there to solely appeal to those people even if they are easy targets for them.
Finaika
Member
Why is she covering her body like she's naked here?
Because you are ogling at her body.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
It's a very real report with various other outlets confirming the same thing, it's not just CNN reporting on this very real cultural issue, stop trying to downplay it.
You don't expect Japan to be good at talking about the state of their country when various reports confirm the same thing? Really?
Sephiroth_VII
Member
I know it's a very real report. It is not, however, based on a very good source.
Again, for me to change my world view as drastically as you want me to, I require a scientifically sound, peer-reviewed paper. I'm sure many others feel the same.
I'm sorry, but until then, I put more weight on personal experience and statistics than some American reporters looking for a story,at least unless their sources get better.
I'm not doubting the existence of JK cafes mind you, or that things can happen in relation to such stores. That shouldn't be a thing. What I doubt is the part about sexual abuse being severely more under reported than most other countries.
Yes. I've lived in Japan long enough to know that this is the case. A lot of Japanese people think their country is the most criminal, dangerous, messed up country on earth, when in fact that couldn't be further from the truth. It has problems, of course, but it's way better off than most other places, based on the four years time I spent studying it at university both in Europe and Japan.
Expect for the economy. The economy is screwed, and much more than many people realise. It's also not screwed in the way that people think it is... Anyway, subject for another thread.
Edit: To sum up, you're asking me to set aside opinions formed based on two years living in Japan, six months of those with a Japanese family, and four years studying the country at university, because you read an article on CNN.
Have you ever visited Japan? Do you have anything to base your opinion on other than a few western news reports?
Lol not this again, age of consent is actually higher because prefectural laws override the federal ones.
How is this any different to porn? Isn't that a poor treatment of women too? In many parts of the world, porn is banned, but its ok because in America its acceptable? Many countries have different beliefs and customs, and there are some things that are universally not ok like child pornography or child soldiers, but in the end there's just too many things different to start questioning how other countries operate. I'm living abroad right now, and everything here is... well... wrong, but to start telling people what to do, they just don't want to hear about it.
As for Japan, it could be considered sleazy, but it is also a very beautiful country with many wonderful innovations. Sometimes you have to take the good with the bad.
And my thoughts on Summer lesson itself - This is exactly the game VR needs. It doesn't work on a regular TV, or rather doesn't work as well. When you can be in the same room as another virtual person, that's immersion. Many developers are looking at VR and trying to put their game in VR but that doesn't always work, at least not in the VR form now where room scale is so small and Oculus is a sitting only experience. Things like escape room or social experiences or puzzlers are what's going to be a much better VR experience. I believe slow paced games rather than fast action games are what it needs for VR to succeed.
I don't have a problem with Summer Lesson's main on screen character being a school girl, though I don't think that highly of that rather short skirt. It's something that I'll just have to put up with. They probably should raise the age of the girl though, it is rather distasteful if she is underage and there is induced sexual tension from the developers.
I don't have a problem with Summer Lesson's main on screen character being a school girl, though I don't think that highly of that rather short skirt. It's something that I'll just have to put up with. They probably should raise the age of the girl though, it is rather distasteful if she is underage and there is induced sexual tension from the developers.
You've not successfully refuted it though, you've just justified to yourself that you have. There's no argument you can make that will convince me you're able to refute it. You're just twisting logic to fit your narrative in exactly the same way that people are saying that Summer Lesson is simply a game about tutoring,
SolarMystic
Banned
So your argument is based around how people should have self control within the game?
So basically anything could be added to the game, say, sexual violence. "Just don't do it" is your response?
More importantly, how can she be this bad at picking up a damn pencil?
Why is she covering her body like she's naked here?
I don't know how you go from something as simple and essential as camera control to sexual violence, but sure, more options in a game is good. Let people decide how they want to play it.
SolarMystic
Banned
Because it is sexual exploitation and is a poor and demeaning representation of women either way and the basis for your argument is that anything goes, we should just demonstrate self control in the game.
Ban Puncher
Member
There sure are a lot of experts on Japanese culture in this thread.
encephalon
Member
It seemed like an odd verb to use to describe trying out the game, which is why I thought it was intended as a wink and a nod to the target audience.
There's a sexual undertone to the game itself.
veloxStrix
Banned
Man, you are holding that CNN report close to the chest. Here's the danger of having an argument using unreported crime statistics as a point of evidence - it's impossible to just by what extent the problem exists. You can only point that there is a problem and then guess at how pervasive it is based on how you would like it to be.
It's hard to take it as a serious argument, especially when your main source of evidence comes from an article from Western media - which was just recently lambasted by Obama - when by all reports and studies Japanese crime is one of the lowest in the world. Nothing from any credible source other than news outlets whose biggest source of evidence are random interview excerpts and anecdotal connections. Before you try and back me into some black-and-white argument, I understand that there are unreported crimes. There are also unreported crimes in the US. It is also understandably difficult to craft an argument over how much unreported crime exists since it is very tempting to assume that the levels are whatever will best fit your argument.
With all that in mind, the majority of your arguments on Japanese culture make it seem like you are more ignorant than anything else. You have no actual experience, as far as I can tell. You are blindly willing to follow wherever the news will lead you all the while forcing your own cultural values and morals highhandedly over another group who is most likely on the other side of the world from you. Or that is the intent I get from your posts.
Japan's age of consent at 13 is a federal lower-limit. Each prefecture sets their own limit, with 13 being the minimum it can possibly be. I believe most of them are 18, with the only exception being Nagano prefecture last time I visited my friends deployed there.
PhleBuster
Neo Member
I find it disturbing how the op sexualizes poor Hikari. I guess there are all kinds of people.