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[dlauv]

I played it. It was pretty great, albeit janky.

I'm not sure that Sonic should be able to uncurl, but I guess it's less of a balance issue in 3D.

Unsure how to make the enemies more dangerous. Maybe with more linearity and environmental design that would surprise the player and push him/her to be as ready as possible. I would like to see it more linear, and I think the creator stated that.

Altho as a wide-open physics challenge playground, I could see some merit to M64/Kazooie kind of design.

 

[Aquova]

I saw this video about a hidden Labryinth Zone style cave in Utopia and its really neat. Reminds me of uncovering a cave while playing Grow Home.

Okay, THAT'S pretty cool. I love the idea of having secret areas within a game like this, or better yet, secret alternate routes to other level, Star Fox 64-esque.

 

[TheCongressman1]

you can run on walls in Utopia. Check out the trailer.

Very aware. I mean at will, like lost world parkour.

 

[GabeTheGrouch76]

I agree with the complaints about the open-ended level design for Utopia and technical issues, but in terms of controls and physics? It's on the money on what I've been wanting to see in a Sonic game, let alone any Sonic project, in ages.

If the developers could dial back the size of the levels into a more linear nature (namely with levels akin to the first Adventure or Sonic R); we'd have a pretty solid groundwork for a momentum-based 3D Sonic IMO.

 

[Durante]

I know it's a fan game and all but that first link in particular looks awful.

The art style is hideous and the animations look janky as fuck. Why does Sonic float awkwardly for huge distances ? Doesn't look natural and looks like the game is gltiching.

I can't say I agree with this. It doesn't look awkward it just looks like physics. If you launch something into the air at a given speed it will follow a given trajectory.

(Note that I am not at all invested in Sonic as a franchise)

 

[wvnative]

I'm personally hopeful this will get finished...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXUAhtgafIU

 

[Secret Character]

Checked out some videos of that Utopia game. Looks good, needs more focused level direction. It honestly has the right idea when it comes to sense of speed and aesthetic.

My biggest gripe about the whole thing is the music. It's absolutely terrible.

 

[Piers]

Love that first video.

Open world Sonic with rewarding exploration and breakneck speed? Shit. Add a Tony Hawk's like score system so we can style around like a blue bullet.

That came to mind as well. Tony Hawk had that aspect of completing objectives with a sort of flow, which could work great in Sonic. Mario 64, but on a timer.

 

[Pif]

Now I want Open World Sonic like this and Sega will never be able to do one.

 

[deriks]

I confess that I was skeptical about it, but I saw the first video and holy shit, this is amazing. With more effort, this game could be the Sonic we ever asked.

The second video is slow Sonic, which means worst Sonic.

 

[MannyToons]

Can't stop playing the Utopia demo. It's just... fantastic to me. The sense of speed and control (I think) is perfect! I go and Sonic GOES, I wanna go fast, I CAN GO FAST. I don't want to lose my speed because lolunexpectedwall? No problem, because I can see WAY ahead of time what's coming. I feel like I have so much freedom to just run around and kill bots. However, this is coming from a person who's only played the original Sonic 1-3 and Advance 1, so it's pretty much my first step into 3D Sonic. ...And it feels so good. ;_;

Also, classic Sonic aesthetics and model. Love it.

 

[celsowmbr]

Yuji Naka shared about Sonic Utopia

 

[Widge]

I mean they look ok, but they look more like playgrounds to have fun with Sonic at speed in. The first link, I can't see how you'd have much enemy interaction as the areas are so so so wide that you could just power past them easily. Then there is some very knowing aspects to the level design, as in knowing precisely where the needle of a spring is to hit to illustrate familiar Sonic features.

Interesting proof of concepts but far from an actual Sonic game.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

Yuji Naka shared about Sonic Utopia

That's amazing! Thanks for posting that.

Since the OP and others discussed Sonic Utopia as a possible 'Mario 64 moment', interesting to consider Yuji Naka's thoughts:

http://shmuplations.com/miyamotoxnaka/
Naka: Since the beginning, Sega has been saying “we need to beat Nintendo!” But my intention wasn’t really to “beat” Nintendo, but to make games that could stand shoulder to shoulder with theirs. If you try to make the exact same thing you’ll never win; you’ve got to pursue a different path. That was our thinking when we made Sonic… but of course, when Miyamoto showed me new games like Mario 64, I realized we were lagging behind again! Just when I thought we were on par, he goes and puts out an amazing game like that... It was the gameplay... that was time-consuming for us. I think with 2D it’s easier to for the player to know where he’s moving his character, where to hit things, etc. But in 3D, the depth of field makes all the gameplay adjustments and fine-tuning take forever.
Miyamoto: Yeah, in a 2D game, you can judge everything pixel by pixel. If you’re used to doing it that way, I can see how 3D would be a big change. In my case, I try to make a 3D game that is fun for the players even if some of those controls are a little vague and not perfectly defined.
Naka: For action games, though, my fear is that if the controls are too vague and approximate, then much of the appeal will be lost...

Also noticed that in the comments section of the Sonic Utopia trailer, the programmer mentioned they are switching from the Unity engine to Unreal:

I've had ideas about level designs I'd like to try, but I have very little practice with the subject.  I've never been satisfied with the gameplay framework, so all my time has been spent developing it. This is partly why we're moving to Unreal - it's got all the features I've been trying to develop for Unity, and I can finally experiment!

 

[manueldelalas]

This is amazing.

 

[TheCongressman1]

This is amazing.

Just seeing this evokes all the good feelings I have about Lost World without any of the bad ones.

Which reminds me. I would like to see more focus on vertical gameplay. Sprawling out in every direction is nice, but with this moveset gaining altitude to reach higher areas could be a big strength.

Another another thing, from what I can tell, it's almost impossible to drop in to a quarterpipe. You always hit the slope and bounce.

 

[Quonny]

Will never understand why these people just don't make a new game with new characters, charge for it, hopefully sell enough to fund the next game, and so on. Then instead of getting these one-off projects we get self-sustaining developers making the games people want.

This and AM2R blow my mind. Another positive side effect is then you don't have to worry about any C&Ds (even though in this case Sega seems okay with it).

 

[Slamtastic]

Will never understand why these people just don't make a new game with new characters, charge for it, hopefully sell enough to fund the next game, and so on. Then instead of getting these one-off projects we get self-sustaining developers making the games people want.

This and AM2R blow my mind. Another positive side effect is then you don't have to worry about any C&Ds (even though in this case Sega seems okay with it).

 

[Sakujou]

iam sorry, but the trailer does look indeed good, but i doubt that the game will be able enjoyable.

the physics just dont look and feel good.

sonic in 3d is impossible.

i thought sonic 3 couldnt be topped until i played sonic rush. best fucking sonic game ever.

i love the music and the speed and the two screens are simply perfection.

sad that i see rarely people talking about this game.

 

[Quonny]

Right. This is an example of it done right. Very, very clearly an homage to something but it's still it's own thing, selling, and from the looks of SteamSpy, selling well.

Now that company can work on another game and we get more awesome games. Everyone wins. Obviously the people making these fan projects get a joy out of doing this, but it just seems like a wasted opportunity.

 

[PAULINK]

I mean they look ok, but they look more like playgrounds to have fun with Sonic at speed in. The first link, I can't see how you'd have much enemy interaction as the areas are so so so wide that you could just power past them easily. Then there is some very knowing aspects to the level design, as in knowing precisely where the needle of a spring is to hit to illustrate familiar Sonic features.

Interesting proof of concepts but far from an actual Sonic game.

Hard to be negative, but I agree. The lack of dofferent textures and a few trees here and there really makes the environment look empty.

 

[Peterc]

Both of those look utterly amazing, and make me want a free roaming/open world/Mario 64 style Sonic game. D:

Yes but not like this.

While i think this style is better than all those other 3d sonics, they really needs to create a more adventure sonic like mario works. In mario galaxy you have yoshi thats running, they can use that kind of thing for the running part (Zelda mask of majora has it too).


But to make a good sonic game, they need to stop using the "always running" gameplay.
It's frustrated and not fun. Thats the reason why 3d sonic is dead.

 

[Hot Coldman]

OK, so these look like cool proof-of-concept demos for alternative takes on Sonic in 3D - that's OK! In the case of Utopia, that's great, even.

But the work being done on fully-fledged 2D Sonic games by the same fan-game community shouldn't go ignored. Look at this - Sonic: Project Survival, a poor choice of name for a game that is kind of adorable in ways the Mega Drive or Game Gear games never were, whilst feeling fresh (and sounding amazing). It's nowhere near as impressive as Utopia or GHP, certainly, but damn if it doesn't just look like a joy to play.

 

[butman]

First link.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

From the last page:

In terms of fan projects... 3D takes [a lot] more man-hours to get anywhere looking decent... Many 3D projects don't make it too far past the prototyping stage. The amount of work involved... is often... beyond what people are willing to put in as a passion project... Some projects go on hiatus because key people lose interest. Others have key people start working on commercial things and either have no time or no longer have the under-the-radar freedom to mess around with fan works... difference in amount of work between 2D projects and 3D projects means the latter is far more susceptible to collapsing under itself before seeing it through to completion...

...Of course, over all, complete projects in the fan game realm are usually exceedingly rare, 3D or 2D...

Some noteworthy remarks in the comments section of the Sonic Utopia trailer, by the main programmer:

Commenter: This is great and all, but the guy who made this is probably some student in college with finals coming up. It'll probably overwhelm him so much that he'll cancel this. So suck up this trial while you can...
Murasaki Fox: The demo has been released for everyone to play, and we're planning on starting a proper game dev company. This makes my job easy, because all the systems I design will be able to work for our original games and Utopia as well!

I'm the programmer for this engine [Sonic Utopia]. I definitely think a happy medium can be found. This level is indeed designed as a bit of a playground so players can get used to the complex momentum physics, but we've got lots of ideas for the future, once we've perfected this process.

We were thinking of doing Stardust Speedway, but we wanted something more traditional for a proof-of-concept, to contrast with all the other Green Hills out there. The level has been designed with the express intention of demonstrating the value of emergent character physics like the classic games focused on.

 

[-Ryn]

Will never understand why these people just don't make a new game with new characters, charge for it, hopefully sell enough to fund the next game, and so on. Then instead of getting these one-off projects we get self-sustaining developers making the games people want.

This and AM2R blow my mind. Another positive side effect is then you don't have to worry about any C&Ds (even though in this case Sega seems okay with it).

I'd imagine they probably don't care about making a game starring Original the Character. They care about making a fun Sonic game and you can bet your ass they will use what they learn with this to better their own projects as well.

iam sorry, but the trailer does look indeed good, but i doubt that the game will be able enjoyable.

the physics just dont look and feel good.

sonic in 3d is impossible.

i thought sonic 3 couldnt be topped until i played sonic rush. best fucking sonic game ever.

i love the music and the speed and the two screens are simply perfection.

sad that i see rarely people talking about this game.

Play the game and you will find it actually IS enjoyable (unless physics based speed and platforming in a giant green playground just isn't your thing).

The physics feel great.

Sonic in 3D is very possible.

Yes, Sonic Rush was a blast.

Yes but not like this.

While i think this style is better than all those other 3d sonics, they really needs to create a more adventure sonic like mario works. In mario galaxy you have yoshi thats running, they can use that kind of thing for the running part (Zelda mask of majora has it too).


But to make a good sonic game, they need to stop using the "always running" gameplay.
It's frustrated and not fun. Thats the reason why 3d sonic is dead.

3D Sonic is dead because the series was plagued by games that were released undercooked (Sonic 06 being the classic example) or had poor design decisions in an otherwise good game (Sonic Unleashed Werehog sections could wear thin and the coin hunting was a pain in the ass). The Boost formula however, has been given a lot of praise in every game its been in.

If we just make Sonic like Mario then everyone will still just play Mario because Mario does it best. Sonic Utopia still plays like Sonic and has a lot of potential to expand. You need to work up to high speed just like in the old days and you can use it to get to new areas. Like Mario 64, the gameplay itself is a lot of fun to play with. This demo is a fantastic showcase of the raw gameplay and I would strongly recommend trying out if you haven't already.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

Incidentally if any of you like the music in Sonic Utopia, Lange put it up on his Soundcloud:

https://soundcloud.com/mr-lange/panic-in-paradise

 

[Bubba_Sparks]

I haven't downloaded it yet, but the video alone makes it looks as it it manages to perfectly translate Sonic from 2D to 3D. I am not even a big Sonic fan, and I think that it looks very impressive.

What the fuck has Sega been doing all these years???

 

[Jay RaR]

Ok, I've managed to clear both of these levels in the OP.

Sonic Utopia is pretty close to what I want in terms of 3D Sonic control. My only gripes are that Sonic is a bit too floaty when he jumps and manually controlling the camera while running can be tiring.

Green Hill Paradise might be too challenging for me lol. It takes a lot of effort to gain momentum and speed. The homing attack and even the spin charge are very nerfed, so you really have to emphasize on reaching top running speed and using slopes to get anywhere. Jumping is horrible as platforming on small platforms is pretty hard when Sonic can't jump too far and he's very slippery even when moving at like 0 speed lol. I don't even know but I managed to fumble to the Goal Ring and it warped me right back to the start haha.

 

[xzeldax3]

I saw this video about a hidden Labryinth Zone style cave in Utopia and its really neat. Reminds me of uncovering a cave while playing Grow Home.

I like Utopia more than Paradise, but both just feel like newer, flashier versions of 3D Sonic fan demos from over the years that have fun physics but lack the structural hook that ties it all together. Maybe im just being cynical IDK. Like I think theyre neat but some of the praise around them falls really flat to me.

That video is so great, I love secrets tucked away in levels!

 

[FoxSpirit]

That 2nd vid is really great. I mean, stylitically no1 is nice but in terms of level design it's super bad. Like I get no inspiration watching this, no idea what to implement in that. While no2 is inspiring, I feel all kind of ideas bubbling up inside

 

[Rlan]

Sonic Vs Darkness is basically a perfect Sonic Rush game as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeLU-xA0Ndg

 

[Odrion]

There are a lot of secret routes and things to discover in that Utopia demo, this is a really nice little piece of content.

 

[dlauv]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sQI7rY27Nw

3-hour developer interview livestream.

Addresses most of the concerns about the "level design," talks about design philosophy, complains about the boost formula, talks about the philosophy behind badnik design, talks about the importance of the aesthetics. And I'm only 37 minutes in.

Project is full-steam ahead now and will focus on more practical level design.

 

[Qwark]

Those demos look neat, but I don't think that would transfer very well to a full game. They have the speed, but the platforming looks a bit like an afterthought. It's very hard to make a fast, 3D platformer. Homing techniques help, but that's not my personal preference. This looks like the start of a good fast action game, but I don't think it would be a good platformer game.

I don't blame Sega for having so much trouble (well maybe I do for some of their questionable design choices), 3D Sonic is tough thing to get right.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

Those demos look neat, but I don't think that would transfer very well to a full game. They have the speed, but the platforming looks a bit like an afterthought. It's very hard to make a fast, 3D platformer. Homing techniques help, but that's not my personal preference. This looks like the start of a good fast action game, but I don't think it would be a good platformer game.

I don't blame Sega for having so much trouble (well maybe I do for some of their questionable design choices), 3D Sonic is tough thing to get right.

Question is: should Sonic still be a platformer? Mascot platformers aren't exactly a strong genre these days. We've had Mario, Ratchet, and the rest are indie efforts like Yooka-Laylee, and that's kind of a nostalgia play.

Also, I think recent efforts to make Sonic more of a platformer (Sonic Lost World, Sonic Boom) have really highlighted how Sonic probably isn't suited to that kind of mixture anymore. I'd argue that a lot of Sonic's problems in 3D are from that kind of "no, but he still has to be both" sensibility. And if you just make Sonic another platformer and slow him down, you're eroding his entire identity, arent you?

I think Sonic Utopia strikes an alright balance.

 

[Stylo]

Personally, I wouldn't mind a Journey-style game where you move from one Zone to another with Sonic 3-style transitions. Sonic 3 already felt like one huge adventure through Angel island. It could emphasise replayability by timing how quickly you beat the game. Although it'd probably be a 2-3 hour game, I imagine it'd be easier for a small team to finish developing and allow room to experiment with the core concept.

Also, I think enemies should play the role of being momentum boosters than obstacles. It seems way too easy to avoid them and I see no easy way to rectify that.

 

[IzzyF3]

I thought this was a Freedom Planet thread... cuz that was the best damn Sonic style game ever.

At work right now, so can't check out videos.

 

[Qwark]

Question is: should Sonic still be a platformer? Mascot platformers aren't exactly a strong genre these days. We've had Mario, Ratchet, and the rest are indie efforts like Yooka-Laylee, and that's kind of a nostalgia play.

Also, I think recent efforts to make Sonic more of a platformer (Sonic Lost World, Sonic Boom) have really highlighted how Sonic probably isn't suited to that kind of mixture anymore. I'd argue that a lot of Sonic's problems in 3D are from that kind of "no, but he still has to be both" sensibility. And if you just make Sonic another platformer and slow him down, you're eroding his entire identity, arent you?

I think Sonic Utopia strikes an alright balance.

I think I agree with you, Sonic as a 3D platformer doesn't really work, and I'm not sure if it ever will. That makes me a bit sad, because that was the dream, but maybe its time to let that go.

Utopia does look very nice, I should try it out. I'm just concerned that the open world will feel empty and get old fast.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Despite the name, platforming encompasses more than just jumping from platform to platform. I don't think Sonic does well negotiating small platforms and bottomless pits, in 2d or 3d, but the type of traversal in that Sonic Utopia video looks like a lot of fun. Running through winding pathways, rolling down and being flung from ramps and turn-pipes, ricocheting off enemies and obstacles at speed--all of that looks golden. It's not Mario style platforming. It's Sonic. Just build levels and challenges around all of that and you have yourself a winner. (Full disclosure, I'm not a huge fan of Sonic's past games, but I've always liked the idea of Sonic. For my money, Utopia could be the best realization of that idea in 3d ever.)

 

[LordKasual]

Hey just dropping in here to say, after i played the Sonic Utopia demo on my actual PC instead of my laptop (and with a controller), i can actually say the concept is superior to anything Sega has put out.

The only thing its really missing is a more clearcut way to let you know that you are actually moving forward through the level. But after a while of playing you kind of just develop a sense that you're being carried in the right direction if you're having fun.

But yeah, the Utopia demo puts the focus of the gameplay back on the core platforming aspect of it. Not speed, or homing attack strings, but the platforming.

 

[dlauv]

I think I agree with you, Sonic as a 3D platformer doesn't really work, and I'm not sure if it ever will. That makes me a bit sad, because that was the dream, but maybe its time to let that go.

Utopia does look very nice, I should try it out. I'm just concerned that the open world will feel empty and get old fast.

I would suggest trying it. While directionless, the creator/director admitted that it's only a proof of concept and not exactly what they're going for; it's preliminary. Lange seems to be aiming for something more directed and less open but not entirely linear either.

Outside of some maybe improvements to air control and the camera, it's a very nifty little physics playground that shows how well classic Sonic's physics elements can work in 3D. And it's pretty satisfying to implement momentum to reach the peak of a mountain and overlook the terrain, before dropping back into a slope. It's very satisfying to control in a way unlike anything else really outside of maybe Tony Hawk.

I'd suggest clicking the link to the interview I posted before your initial post. It addresses some of the concerns you have.

In short, I don't see why Sonic couldn't work in 3D.

 

[Krowley]

Despite the name, platforming encompasses more than just jumping from platform to platform. I don't think Sonic does well negotiating small platforms and bottomless pits, in 2d or 3d, but the type of traversal in that Sonic Utopia video looks like a lot of fun. Running through winding pathways, rolling down and being flung from ramps and turn-pipes, ricocheting off enemies and obstacles at speed--all of that looks golden. It's not Mario style platforming. It's Sonic. Just build levels and challenges around all of that and you have yourself a winner. (Full disclosure, I'm not a huge fan of Sonic's past games, but I've always liked the idea of Sonic. For my money, Utopia could be the best realization of that idea in 3d ever.)

I agree with this...

Platforming is a lot more than just jumping from one block to another. It's about making the act of traversing terrain challenging and interesting. The Utopia demo *is* a platformer by that definition, and it works really well. I think it could turn into a great sonic game.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

Been playing Sonic Utopia. I've always thought that an open 3D Sonic game where you're running around and maneuvering your way through the environment using proper Sonic physics would be super fun. I always wanted to play that goddamn Sonic CD intro. It would feel so free and liberating.

Does Sonic Utopia prove I was right? Sort of. The act of running and rolling around is just fun. It does feel free and liberating. It's a joy to play with Sonic in an open playground like this. But at the same time the execution here is VERY flawed. The jumping feels very bad. Just the simple act of jumping from platform to platform is harder than it should be due to loose controls. The camera is also pretty poor. If Sonic Team made a game based on a more open style 3D Sonic game and launched with these controls and camera they'd be crucified in the reviews.

This is, however, just a fangame and just a concept. And it's a concept that proves a Sonic game like this would be very fun. I'd love to see a full game that expanded on this with proper objectives in the level and obatacles to overcome. With much tighter controls and a more friendly camera of course. I can imagine a 3D Sonic game with this style of gameplay would be really accessible and fun for anyone to just run around and explore the envorionment, but would have a super high skill ceiling and if the level design accomodated it could have some really well designed challenges for the hardcore gamer based around using momentum and maneuvering Sonic around the environment in just the right way. That's my dream 3D Sonic game.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

Funny because Sega are finally making the Sonic game I've wanted for a long time, its called Sonic Mania. Sonic just works better in 2D.

Not to knock what these guys have made, it certainly looks better than any 3D Sonic game made before but for me, Sonic is still better in 2D.

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

Getting used to Sonic Utopia more now. Really fun. For a while I was always having trouble not falling off the slopes when going at speed. The trick appears to be moving the right stick as you turn so the camera keeps in line. Also exploring is just a joy. I keep finding new places.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sQI7rY27Nw

3-hour developer interview livestream.

Cool, thanks for posting that! Listened to the first hour, very interesting stuff. Just to briefly come back to a point Falk made earlier:

In terms of fan projects... 3D takes [a lot] more man-hours to get anywhere looking decent... The amount of work involved... is often... beyond what people are willing to put in as a passion project... Some projects go on hiatus because key people lose interest. Others have key people start working on commercial things and either have no time or no longer have the under-the-radar freedom to mess around with fan works. Others simply disintegrate due to personality clashes... difference in amount of work between 2D projects and 3D projects means the latter is far more susceptible to collapsing under itself before seeing it through to completion...

It was a bit unfortunate when Kotaku (Luke Plunkett), IGN (Blake Hester), and Game Tyrant (Mick Joest) all implied that Sonic Utopia was the work of Lange alone, in their 10/24/16 articles on Sonic Utopia. While Luke Plunkett has since amended his article, after being contacted via Twitter by the main programmer (Murasaki), the IGN and Game Tyrant articles remain unamended, despite the fact that they too have been contacted by Murasaki (on Twitter).

With that precedent in mind, I think it probably would have been a good idea for Lange to mention/acknowledge the other members right at the start. In the first hour of the video that I've seen so far, he thanks the other team members individually (by name) later on, at 29m07s (in response to a question), at 32m47s (in response to another question), and again at 36m39s & 59m45s (spontaneously).

Similarly, while Lange is clearly very reverential toward the classic Sonic series (as well as toward Taxman), it would probably be great if he were just a bit more friendly/conciliatory towards present-day Sega and Sonic Team. There is a good deal of criticism of present-day Sega and Sonic Team in the first hour that I've seen so far (not without merit, it should be said) and the first positive mention of present-day Sega (indirectly at 41m47s, and more directly at 48m55s) is in the later part of that hour.

I'm sure Lange will be able to get the hang of this in the future, though! And from listening to the first hour of commentary, there are certainly some very insightful, thoughtful, well-articulated remarks by Lange in this interview:

• Lange's Discussion of 'the Boost Formula' [15m57s] / [38m20s]
• How 'Boost Sonic' Compares to Mario 64 [17m00s]
• Sonic Utopia versus Mario 64 versus Sonic CD [56m26s] / [56m55s] / [57m12s]
• Discussion of Sonic Team's tendencies, in the era after Sonic Adventure [20m25s] / [39m40s] / [47m43s]
• The Difference Between what Nintendo has Done (post-M64) and what Sonic Team has Done (post-SA1) [22m35s]
• Lange Speaks Very Positively about Sonic Mania and Christian Whitehead's Sonic Games [28m20s] / [49m24s]
• Level Design, Exploration, and Physics in 3D Sonic Games [34m00s] / [45m45s] / [48m24s]
• Plans for Sonic Utopia [37m33s] / [39m13s] / [52m25s] / [56m59s]
• Thoughts on Classic Sonic versus Modern Sonic [4m30s] / [44m53s]
• Where Sonic Utopia Needs to Improve [50m19s] / [51m40s] / [55m45s]
• Thoughts on the Requests for a Casino Zone [54m20s]
• Design Considerations w/r/t the Spin Dash and Peel Out Moves [65m32s]

 

[xenorevlis]

I'm okay with it too. I literally say that Sonic Utopia is my childhood dreams of what Sonic in true 3D would be (rather than Sonic Adventure) in a little play-montage of my own:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXOCICOL3wA

Haven't tried the Green Hill Paradise one, but am downloading now!

 

[I Wanna Be The Guy]

Cool, thanks for posting that! Listened to the first hour, very interesting stuff. Just to briefly come back to a point Falk made earlier:



It was a bit unfortunate when Kotaku (Luke Plunkett), IGN (Blake Hester), and Game Tyrant (Mick Joest) all implied that Sonic Utopia was the work of Lange alone, in their 10/24/16 articles on Sonic Utopia. While Luke Plunkett has since amended his article, after being contacted via Twitter by the main programmer (Murasaki), the IGN and Game Tyrant articles remain unamended, despite the fact that they too have been contacted by Murasaki (on Twitter).

With that precedent in mind, I think it probably would have been a good idea for Lange to mention/acknowledge the other members right at the start. In the first hour of the video that I've seen so far, he thanks the other team members individually (by name) later on, at 29m07s (in response to a question), at 32m47s (in response to another question), and again at 36m39s & 59m45s (spontaneously).

Similarly, while Lange is clearly very reverential toward the classic Sonic series (as well as toward Taxman), it would probably be great if he were just a bit more friendly/conciliatory towards present-day Sega and Sonic Team. There is a good deal of criticism of present-day Sega and Sonic Team in the first hour that I've seen so far (not without merit, it should be said) and the first positive mention of present-day Sega (indirectly at 41m47s, and more directly at 48m55s) is in the later part of that hour.

I'm sure Lange will be able to get the hang of this in the future, though! And from listening to the first hour of commentary, there are certainly some very insightful, thoughtful, well-articulated remarks by Lange in this interview:

• Lange's Discussion of 'the Boost Formula' [15m57s] / [38m20s]
• How 'Boost Sonic' Compares to Mario 64 [17m00s]
• Sonic Utopia versus Mario 64 versus Sonic CD [56m26s] / [56m55s] / [57m12s]
• Discussion of Sonic Team's tendencies, in the era after Sonic Adventure [20m25s] / [39m40s] / [47m43s]
• The Difference Between what Nintendo has Done (post-M64) and what Sonic Team has Done (post-SA1) [22m35s]
• Lange Speaks Very Positively about Sonic Mania and Christian Whitehead's Sonic Games [28m20s] / [49m24s]
• Level Design, Exploration, and Physics in 3D Sonic Games [34m00s] / [45m45s] / [48m24s]
• Plans for Sonic Utopia [37m33s] / [39m13s] / [52m25s] / [56m59s]
• Thoughts on Classic Sonic versus Modern Sonic [4m30s] / [44m53s]
• Where Sonic Utopia Needs to Improve [50m19s] / [51m40s] / [55m45s]
• Thoughts on the Requests for a Casino Zone [54m20s]
• Design Considerations w/r/t the Spin Dash and Peel Out Moves [65m32s]

Listened to a good amount of this last night. Wow it really gives me faith that this team can deliver with a full game. He seems to really understand Sonic. Goddammit Sega just hire him and let him be the lead on a 3D Sonic project. Taxman is about to make you look silly with Sonic Mania Let this guy do the same for a 3D game.

Also, I cant stop playing Sonic Utopia. Such a fun playground. So excited for the future of this project. Cant wait to see how this game plays with some refinements and more focused level design.

 

[Schopenhauerian]

I mean, the movement in the first video [Sonic Utopia] looked great... but what is the objective in a level like that? Mario 64 had you going after stars, this would need to be a similar thing if you can just run around wherever you want in a big open space...

Sonic utopia looks exactly like what a 2d sonic translates into 3d, but the video comes of as so...directionless, like a sandbox, really makes me wonder what goals could be implemented in that environment.

I think the more open levels actually help mitigate some of the issues with Sonic in 3D, in that it gives you more time and space to react to things instead of just memorizing them. On the other hand, it does seem that kind of design makes it more suitable toward exploration/collecting or Tony Hawk style trick/combo stuff, and less the straight up 'racing' of 2D Sonic.

The Sonic Utopia demo looks much closer to what my ideal game would be. I don't want open world like some people on here, but I want the ability to explore a stage, instead of it being narrow branching paths to the end. I would like to see larger, more open areas with regions to explore, funneling into a goal at the other end of the stage. This demo is the closest I've seen to that.

Hey just dropping in here to say, after i played the Sonic Utopia demo on my actual PC instead of my laptop (and with a controller), i can actually say the concept is superior to anything Sega has put out. The only thing its really missing is a more clearcut way to let you know that you are actually moving forward through the level. But after a while of playing you kind of just develop a sense that you're being carried in the right direction if you're having fun. But yeah, the Utopia demo puts the focus of the gameplay back on the core platforming aspect of it. Not speed, or homing attack strings, but the platforming.

I think sonic utopia could work if it becomes linear (as in you have to go from point a to point b and nothing else), but with really wide open levels similar to what was on the video and branching paths/elevations. Maybe secret areas too.

Sometimes open world feels like an excuse to have busy work. Climbing towers, collecting feathers, doing races, spending time in transit. A lot of space where you don't have to specifically do anything except zone out with a checklist of bland, repeatable, uninteresting objectives. Having played Utopia, I don't know if I'd consider it open world, though. It's just a really, really big level, but it still has a progression towards an end point.

...In terms of level design I was thinking a more linear 9 paths gameplay style. As you know you have 3 paths in 2D upper, middle and lower, 3D can expand on that by making upper-left, lower-center etc paths. This way although it is linear it won't feel as much as you will have multiple paths to explore and would keep the style similar to the originals.

Part of the level design is to encourage players to find fun and creative ways to get from A to B on their own. On a good run I can get from start to finish in just under two minutes!

A big part of our game's design is to let the player figure out new ways and paths to get from A-to-B, and also to leave potential for A-to-X/Y/Z in the future. I've got my time down to somewhere around 1 minute and 45 seconds on a good run, though I prefer performing acrobatics with the momentum mechanics...

To illustrate this, we could take a look at four distinct speedruns through the Sonic Utopia demo. With each of these four distinct paths through the demo's very large level, Sonic is able to reach the end-of-stage Goal Plate in less than 80 seconds:

• 1) Speedrun 1 (Right-Side Route) – 73 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wvGYqsOOwE
• 2) Speedrun 2 (Left-Side Route) – 77 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEYETmzxuW8
  
  
• 3) Speedrun 3 (Center Route) – 70 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJiizR2x3S4
  
  
• 4) Speedrun 4 (Watery Right Route) – 75 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGizzXndI0s
  
  

Related comments from the Developer Interview (starting at 56m26s):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sQI7rY27Nw&t=56m26s
"A lot of people have said that a Mario 64 format of gameplay would work good, and I've thought about that a lot. In fact, I thought that Sonic CD might actually be a really good format for 3D gameplay, where you're looking for things in a large open stage with the [end-of-stage Goal Plate] being sort of only half the actual goal of the game. But, I'm not too sure... I'm thinking that this will have additional challenges, that reward exploration, but will still primarily be a start-to-finish format of gameplay. I feel like if it's not 'go from point A to B', then I'm kind of... taking away a main component of Sonic gameplay. I want to see to it that 3D Sonic level design doesn't have to lean on a Mario 64 format, but can actually be something where you can play through a level start-to-end. At the same time... going from point A to B and optimizing your time, through repetition, is another important point of Sonic gameplay that would kind of be lost with a Mario 64 format, even though perfecting times in that format exists too, it just doesn't sit right with me, feels like something is missing from that... So [I'm aiming for] the best of both worlds, but I'm not going to focus on a Mario 64 format..."

• Lange's Discussion of 'the Boost Formula' [15m57s] / [38m20s]
• How 'Boost Sonic' Compares to Mario 64 [17m00s]
• Sonic Utopia versus Mario 64 versus Sonic CD [56m26s] / [56m55s] / [57m12s]
• Discussion of Sonic Team's tendencies, in the era after Sonic Adventure [20m25s] / [39m40s] / [47m43s]
• The Difference Between what Nintendo has Done (post-M64) and what Sonic Team has Done (post-SA1) [22m35s]
• Lange Speaks Very Positively about Sonic Mania and Christian Whitehead's Sonic Games [28m20s] / [49m24s]
• Level Design, Exploration, and Physics in 3D Sonic Games [34m00s] / [45m45s] / [48m24s]
• Plans for Sonic Utopia [37m33s] / [39m13s] / [52m25s] / [56m59s]
• Thoughts on Classic Sonic versus Modern Sonic [4m30s] / [44m53s]
• Where Sonic Utopia Needs to Improve [50m19s] / [51m40s] / [55m45s]
• Thoughts on the Requests for a Casino Zone [54m20s]
• Design Considerations w/r/t the Spin Dash and Peel Out Moves [65m32s]