Is the Pokémon "Are you a boy or girl?" thing outdated?
- Thread starter Flowmoney
- Start date
- Status
LordKasual
Banned
...i doubt that arbitrary number would be as high as 95% in this case, but yeah.
I feel for the cause, but i'm not about to pretend that asking for more than 2 genders is as prolific a customization request as varied skintone.
No? And if it is, why is Pokémon the only game we're mentioning here?
Personally, I don't think demographic of gender fluid folks is big enough to make this something like this more complicated and I'm pretty sure Nintendo doesn't think so either. Even most tans folks identify as him/her.
Personally, I don't think demographic of gender fluid folks is big enough to make this something like this more complicated and I'm pretty sure Nintendo doesn't think so either. Even most tans folks identify as him/her.
I agree there has to be something that can be done.
So, something like this? These are the options that you get when you first start up LongStory.
If nothing else get accomplished in this thread (and it seems that it wont), I now know this exists. So thanks!
I agree there has to be something that can be done.
So, something like this? These are the options that you get when you first start up LongStory.
Ideally we'd always get this yeah.
weird, i always referred to a person as "they" if i don't know their gender. That's archaic? i learned that in school.
weird, i found it to be super elegant.
As opposed to the french quirk of calling a group of people "ils" (them - all males), "elles" (them - all female), and - even if it's just one man among 5 women - "ils" :/
(correct me if i'm wrong, french native speakers.
but why - semantically - take away everyone's chance of self insertion in a role playing game just to avoid giving it to an underrepresented minority?
i mean, it puts everyone on an equal footing, so, yay(?) but it drags down the majority instead of lifting up the minority, i feel.
Maybe it wasn't your intent but your comment came across as "What I care about is important (skin tone), what you care about isn't (gender identity)".
Without involving pronouns the precedent for an elegant solution is pretty much set as far as I can gather from looking trough this thread:
1. "Choose a trainer!" as in Splatoon
2. Change your biology on the fly as in Pokemon Go
3. Wear whatever you want as in Animal crossing
1. "Choose a trainer!" as in Splatoon
2. Change your biology on the fly as in Pokemon Go
3. Wear whatever you want as in Animal crossing
A lot of those are just repeated terms for whatever reason. For example, there's no argument for making a distinction between "male-to-female" and "MTF".
That is true but the number of people who identify as neither strictly male or female is just going to increase for the foreseeable future as people continue to come out of the closet. We are already finding that the number of transgender individuals is double what was previously thought and it will continue to grow as well as it becomes more accepted.
DarkConfidant
Member
In lack of a real character creator, they're basically just asking if you want to be one white person or another.
The game isn't about your character really, so it's not really crucial, unlike games where customizing your character is a core feature of the game that have very limited options.
So in this context I'd say no.
The game isn't about your character really, so it's not really crucial, unlike games where customizing your character is a core feature of the game that have very limited options.
So in this context I'd say no.
same goes for "cisgender female" and "cisgender woman"
it's a really dumb image and i have no idea what its point is beyond giving bigots a chance to go "OLOLOL WHERE'S THE ATTACK HELICOPTER" by means of artificially inflating what would otherwise be a smaller number of categories.
(sorry, i can't let that go, it's simply so damn ... willfully hurtful)
whalleywhat
Member
Let's hope.
M0nochromatic
Member
Unfortunately, Nintendo is not a progressive, open minded company.
If we are attempting to engage the industry in a conversation on gender, in order to both include minority gender identities as well as normalize them in society, the best place to start is at the small scale.
I know that's not saying much, considering the stupidity that abounds, but I think that indie game devs would be the first to really help and acknowledge the problem. They're not beholden to stock prices or a board of executives, and that freedom lends itself to progressive change.
And once it becomes standard there, the big brands might not be as afraid to join in.
If we are attempting to engage the industry in a conversation on gender, in order to both include minority gender identities as well as normalize them in society, the best place to start is at the small scale.
I know that's not saying much, considering the stupidity that abounds, but I think that indie game devs would be the first to really help and acknowledge the problem. They're not beholden to stock prices or a board of executives, and that freedom lends itself to progressive change.
And once it becomes standard there, the big brands might not be as afraid to join in.
Easier to be mad and non-contributive, I guess. It's okay; I wanted to be a cool kid once too.
Same goes for most everything on there. It's a ridiculous image on numerous levels. Not to mention some of the terminology are trans-slurs. Or don't accurately reflect what being trans even is. Like.....cis man, cis woman, transman, transwoman, two spirit (tho that's specific to a certain culture and if we get into cultural matters there are a few more classifications), androgynous/non-binary...maybe one or two others but that covers most everyone afaik.
but they (kinda) are.
In Pokemon Sun / Moon, as a previous poster has pointed out, character selection is presented as such (at least that's what is shown in the trailer)
those are boy / girl, as well as more skin color options (beyond white, more white and ever so brownish). It's a step towards the right direction. I still don't think you could pick the "boy" avatar and be addressed via a non-gendered pronoun. but still - a welcome change already.
Roni
Member
Restraint
-sdp
Member
Poetry.
Erin S Kittens
Member
I don't understand what you're getting at, do you operate mainline Pokemon games with your genitals? I know it's been a whole generation since HeartGold and SoulSilver, but I can't imagine the mechanics have changed that much.
On the back of every single Pokemon game, you'll find some variant on the phrase 'Basic reading ability is required to fully enjoy this game.'
I'm genuinely concerned as to why you'd advocate for the game surveying the genitals of children who, in your estimate, aren't old enough to read. For what? So trans kids can be bullied every moment of gameplay, so non-binary people and intersex people can feel further excluded from society? It's difficult to understand why you'd privilege this bullshit system in the face of an inclusive alternative.
Belgian Dude
Member
The biggest problem I see with that picture is that the two rows represent a clear separation between what are usually portrayed as the two main genders. I think we'd be able to see this faster if the game didn't usually have ties to the anime (like Serena in X/Y, even if it might not happen with Sun/Moon), with no need for a 'default' different look for the boy and the girl, they could create one design and then add variants to it, with one that looks more masculine and one that looks more feminine in each 'end', and then you'd go to choose hair/skin color customization.
It doesn't solve the problem of the pronouns (but maybe a 'how would you like to be addressed' could solve it), but I do think it's a good way to represent the spectrum while still having some level of control over the default design and without adding a robust character creator to the games.
PersonAndStuff
Member
I'm not really keyed into all this but are there transgender people who insist upon nongendered pronouns? I get that some people identify as right in the middle and gendered pronouns have always been a dumb concept. But I assume most would either accept one or both. Because nongendered pronouns like they or it suck
Messofanego
Banned
If we go by that argument, then minorities shouldn't be catered to because by definition there aren't many. Only whites should be represented because they're the majority. Do you see the problem?
Several reasons, like the fact that a new entry on the franchise is coming up. Bet that, as Mass Effect Andromeda's release date approaches, we'll have this thread again contextualized to Mass Effect.
But there is also the fact that the question has been incredibly wonky since day one, even before awareness of the gender identity spectrum became as relevant as it is nowadays, people thought "are you a boy or a girl?" was a weird line of dialogue, even before you factor the possibility of widening the gender spectrum within the game of pokemon, just looking for a better, more tactful way to ask your gender should be considered.
I mean, the excuse for oak was that he was more or less senile (as far as forgetting his own grandson's name) just cannot be applied to all professors who ask the goofy question of "are you a boy or a girl".
I want to say I'm not sure I understand where the arguments are coming from about kids not being able to possibly understand the concept of a non-binary gender option because it's too complicated for them. Pokemon asks you, at a minimum, to be aware of 18 types and the different defenses and immunities they have against one another when battling. The TV show in the first gen also encouraged children to actually know all 151 Pokemon with the rap, and I imagine that in the ensuing years where the roster has grown huge that some of these kids today know more Pokemon than I do off the top of their heads. Even in the case of, "it's hard to explain these kinds of things," children can begin to recognize their trans and non-binary selves at an extremely early age, and on top of that they're engaging in media that smashes gender stereotypes like Steven Universe without being utterly confused about what's going on.
I don't know; bringing the children into it seems like a kind backhanded concept. They're not close-minded or dumb.
I don't know; bringing the children into it seems like a kind backhanded concept. They're not close-minded or dumb.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
C.Olimar788
Member
Pokemon Uranium had a gender neutral option with they pronouns and I appreciated it very much.
The main question is if its outdated.
If most other companies and most other games are including more options besides the boy and girl option, then yes, it would be outdated.
But since that is not the case, then its not outdated.
Now, if they did decide to add a gender neutral or however you would call it option, they would be one of the few who actually do so.
If most other companies and most other games are including more options besides the boy and girl option, then yes, it would be outdated.
But since that is not the case, then its not outdated.
Now, if they did decide to add a gender neutral or however you would call it option, they would be one of the few who actually do so.
I realize that Pokémon is played by adults, but it's intended for children. How many 9 year olds out there that identify as trans vs how many are there that have no idea what it is, and have parents that will be upset that they have to explain it because they bought a poke game.
Maybe there is a way to allow options without being explicit, like there is a third option to pick that is neither boy or girl, but I'm not sure how to do that with out making the third option like a robot or a monster, which is not exactly sending a perfect message either.
Shmuppers
Member
Yeah, I guess I do.
I just think that, for a game aimed at kids, the distinction between "boy" and "girl" is enough. I wouldn't be up in arms if they did explicitly add more options, but to answer the question of "is it outdated?" I would still say no.
Maybe the kids don't know there is a word for what they feel, how they feel, maybe they don't understand it, but i assure you there are out there many 9 year old who are living the experience of being trans and don't know it, i imagine that it would mean the world to that kind of 9 year old to pick up a pokemon game and realize there is an option they can identify with.
Shmuppers
Member
They can still do that in the state that the game is in now though.
There's a big difference between 0.3% of the population and 10 or 12%.
I understand why Nintendo thinks thinks this would cause more problems for them than it would fix. There might be a tactful way to do it, that doesn't make kids realize that it's asking "are you trans?", but if there isn't an easy way, then I don't blame Nintendo for not wanting to be the first introduction to an issue that is still controversial in some households. The number of people that think a trans lifestyle is sinful, immoral, or otherwise controversial is likely 10-100x the size of the actual trans population. That's not really the case with minority populations.
That's not a slam on transgender people, it's just real talk from a business sense. Most companies are not going to purposefully potentially piss off 50 million people to cater to 1.4 million.
-Mutsukki-
Member
I agree there has to be something that can be done.
So, something like this? These are the options that you get when you first start up LongStory.
I'm sorry but this doesn't look good to me at all. What if I want to play as a girl... that actually looks like a girl anatomically? Is it that wrong? I think this all overcomplicates a simple question that kids don't even think about
Belgian Dude
Member
That's a really good point - while of course it might take some time for little kids to understand the concept and the message might resonate better with young adults and forward, the kids that watch Cartoon Network/Nickelodeon already have a pretty good amount of exposure to content that breaks some of those previously set "barriers". You mentioned Steven Universe, but I'll go farther and talk about shows that are set in a more 'normal' setting, with the main characters being human, because I feel the message hits closer to home there.
The best friend of the main character in 'The Loud House' (Nickelodeon) are both male, and while they are introduced with "Hi, Mr. McBryde, and Hi, Mr. McBryde", which could be seen as a gag, the show really handles the characters well. The fact that they're both guys isn't made out to be a big deal or something out of the ordinary, they both have their individual character traits (positive and negative) that can be seen while they interact with the kids, and the jokes at their expense are then built up upon those traits. Then you look at their kid, Clyde (the best friend of the protagonist), and he has his own sets of character traits, with his biggest fault being that he has an unabashed crush on the protagonist's sister.
All that comes across off naturally, without being forced, and no one in the show (as far as I've seen, which admittedly, may not be all of it) calls out the kid for being different/too much like his parents (in fact, I didn't even realize that Clyde liking a girl was dispelling the stupid 'gay parents will make their kids gay' argument - the characters just connect naturally and nothing feels out of place). Kids might not know what they're feeling, and many of those will grow up to be straight as well - but the kids that grow up watching these shows now see that a same-sex couple isn't 'weird and out of place', which is wonderful. I think the fact that this show is in an 'urban environment' helps to sell that idea, because you're more likely to understand, even if Steven Universe has overall better written characters and more complex relationships.
GhostTrick
Banned
Wow, why so much agressivity ? Did you read my other posts in that thread ? I'm all for having a third option and even no limitation for clothing.
You just twist my words for no reasons here ! When I said about biological sex, I didn't said about genitals or whatever. When you do administrative stuff, you do have questions about your biological sex or basically, if you're a male or female. Basically, what's on your ID card.
When I said about the kids part, may I recall you the thread is about how "Are you a boy or girl" sounds outdated. Especially to us, adults or even teenagers. But the main target are kids and despite what the box can say, it's still a Pegi 7 game.
I'm not advocating for anything, except what I said earlier: having a 3rd option as seen before and more customisation for characters. So calm down instead of accusing me of wishing people to suffer when I clearly never did.
SCB3
Member
ok, best way to approach this:
Sex: Male or Female
Race: Number of choices
then that's it, clothing/style options are not limited
Everybody wins
End of the day, everyone was born male or female, if you feel/choose to be the other gender, no worries but lets not over complicate it further than that in games
Sex: Male or Female
Race: Number of choices
then that's it, clothing/style options are not limited
Everybody wins
End of the day, everyone was born male or female, if you feel/choose to be the other gender, no worries but lets not over complicate it further than that in games
Tearaway addressed this in its design three whole years ago. When it came time to represent yourself in the game, it presented different sets of hands, some that appeared more masculine or feminine, and asked something like, "Which do you want to represent you?" It never assigned a gender to any of the choices.
Easy.
Obviously it's a different style of game that didn't need to refer to your sun god character in dialogue the way that your Pokemon protagonist is, but it's not like this is remotely a new concept or that it would be the first time it appears in a family friendly game.
The dialogue changes honestly wouldn't even be that difficult. Say "you" or the characters name when speaking to them directly. When being spoken of in third person, use "kid" and "trainer." As in: "I heard some kid from nowhere beat that really tough gym trainer!" "Did you hear about that kid who has that unstoppable Pikachu? Wow!" "Oh wow, you're that amazing trainer everyone's talking about!"
Gender neutral. Not awkward. Super easy.
What you mean is a cis female. That's why the word cis exists. To express precisely what you're trying to express without having to struggle for the words.
And in what way is a girl not cis just because she has short hair? Short hair is not "anatomical."
Easy.
Obviously it's a different style of game that didn't need to refer to your sun god character in dialogue the way that your Pokemon protagonist is, but it's not like this is remotely a new concept or that it would be the first time it appears in a family friendly game.
The dialogue changes honestly wouldn't even be that difficult. Say "you" or the characters name when speaking to them directly. When being spoken of in third person, use "kid" and "trainer." As in: "I heard some kid from nowhere beat that really tough gym trainer!" "Did you hear about that kid who has that unstoppable Pikachu? Wow!" "Oh wow, you're that amazing trainer everyone's talking about!"
Gender neutral. Not awkward. Super easy.
What you mean is a cis female. That's why the word cis exists. To express precisely what you're trying to express without having to struggle for the words.
And in what way is a girl not cis just because she has short hair? Short hair is not "anatomical."
M0nochromatic
Member
You are right. That is certainly something to be applauded. It would be wonderful if Nintendo would act the same way in regards to issues that fall under the LGBTQIA+ umbrella.
And who knows, maybe they that will respond in a positive way if they're made aware of this. I'd love to be wrong. That would be the best thing that cound happen.
-Mutsukki-
Member
Memorization is a whole different category than actually understanding concepts. There's nothing to understand in these things you said.
I'm not accustomed to using that word, so you'll have to forgive me for wording it awkwardly. What I meant to say is that I can't tell their actual biological gender apart on those screens, nothing about their hairstyle and the like. I may have worded it poorly
GhostTrick
Banned
Aren't the dialogues already gender neutral btw ?
Or maybe I just don't remember well. I always thought people would just call you by your name.
To everyone saying that it is aimed at kids as a reason not to include an option you have to realize that changes like this are ideal. Children are blank slates. Their understanding of the world is shaped by the information that gets imprinted onto them by their parents, friends, society, and media. Pokemon is media that kids will enjoy.
Here is what happens when the change gets made:
-Cisgendered kids see the option alongside boy and girl and understand that that is an option for people and that they are no different.
-People who do identify as that gender feel included and welcomed because there is an option that represents them more accurately.
The reason why it is so important to have diversity in media is because we internalize a lot of what media tells us. If kids grow up seeing other races, orientations or genders as just people they will be less inclined to think of them as a different group of people but rather just people. You don't need to teach them everything about sexual identity immediately but you can show that these people exist and that it isn't something to be ashamed of.
I grew up during the 1990s. I'd be lying if I said that transgendered people didn't seem odd to me at some point in my life. I've largely overcome that but it is our younger minds who won't have those preconceptions who will truly make strides towards a future of equality without stigmas attached to people who want to just be themselves.
Here is what happens when the change gets made:
-Cisgendered kids see the option alongside boy and girl and understand that that is an option for people and that they are no different.
-People who do identify as that gender feel included and welcomed because there is an option that represents them more accurately.
The reason why it is so important to have diversity in media is because we internalize a lot of what media tells us. If kids grow up seeing other races, orientations or genders as just people they will be less inclined to think of them as a different group of people but rather just people. You don't need to teach them everything about sexual identity immediately but you can show that these people exist and that it isn't something to be ashamed of.
I grew up during the 1990s. I'd be lying if I said that transgendered people didn't seem odd to me at some point in my life. I've largely overcome that but it is our younger minds who won't have those preconceptions who will truly make strides towards a future of equality without stigmas attached to people who want to just be themselves.
doctorblurg
Banned
As other have mentioned it does look like the boy or girl question seems to be gone in sun and moon granted I'm sure clothing will still be gender specific which is the next step!
And to the people trying to deflect this question with "it's a kids game." that's not very fair to say. I would have loved having a gender neutral option as a kid! I've struggled with my gender identity for years and I'm just now finally getting to a place I'm comfortable with. A non-binary option with no clothing restrictions would be super cool.
Having stuff like gender neutral options does a lot for people who had or are having the same experience as I did. It feels nice to be recognized ya know? Even if it's something as simple as letting my character wear whatever they want and be referred to as They.
And to the people trying to deflect this question with "it's a kids game." that's not very fair to say. I would have loved having a gender neutral option as a kid! I've struggled with my gender identity for years and I'm just now finally getting to a place I'm comfortable with. A non-binary option with no clothing restrictions would be super cool.
Having stuff like gender neutral options does a lot for people who had or are having the same experience as I did. It feels nice to be recognized ya know? Even if it's something as simple as letting my character wear whatever they want and be referred to as They.
-Mutsukki-
Member
I mean, I'm the same, but even if I understand people being transgender that won't mean I agree that Pokémon is reinforcing the status quo for asking a simple and innocent question.
I've had this remorse where I thought I had to right all the wrongs about prejudice after overcoming my own, but I also overcame that, mostly because at some point I realised I wasn't going anywhere and was working at all the wrong places (like this case)
Yeah and that isn't a problem but I feel like it also misses the point about... how people actually are. I always make androgynous characters in games when I can too, so I'm not foreign to the concept of blurring the line, but it also feels weird in this case.
To be honest, I couldn't tell that one of those was supposed to be a girl either. It's the left oneat least that's my assumption.
Belgian Dude
Member
That's more on the designs than the idea proposed, though. The same 'choice' structure should work with the boy/girl designs for Sun and Moon, for example, and these ones are close enough (while still differing a fair amount) that it'd even allow for variants that bridge the designs together to be possibly selected on the screen.
Some people brought up that apparently the french? version of the dialogue has different words for trainer/champion depending on the gender of the player. You'd still be able to change it to stuff like "You have won the tournament" (instead of "You are the champion"), but I'd think it'd be a bit of additional work on the localization/writing font.
Sure. It's still a new word for a lot of people, but that's why I wanted you to become more aware of its proper usage. Now you know, so it'll be easier to express those thoughts and questions more clearly and directly.
But I think what you'll find is that pre-puberty most children do not have the sort of gender or sex identifiers you are looking for outside of our preconceptions about hair length and clothing. It's very hard to "guess" the sex of most children in the real world. We've just been trained to think it isn't because young girls often grow their hair long or dress a particular way that boys do not.
Honestly, I really feel like you're right, but people keep presenting it as a problem. But I'm pretty sure all your in game friends just use your name and most other NPCs as well, so that Nintendo didn't have to code multiple versions of dialogue dependent on whether boy or girl was chosen.
- Status