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DF Retro: Metroid Prime - Nintendo's first-person masterpiece

There are so many interactive elements in the game that require the pointer's precision that I'm not sure how they could be adapted to a regular controller. Hell, you would have to significantly rework the Mogenar fight because of how much it relies on the speed of the pointer.

Pretty much this. Prime 3 depends so much on the Wiimote + Nunchuk control scheme, whereas Prime 1 and 2 merely adopted it for Trilogy. Prime and Echoes could easy be adopted control scheme-wise on the Switch.

Also about the comment earlier about the water ripple effect being removed in Prime 1, I don't really quite know myself. I think the addition of enhanced textures, bloom lighting, and 16:9 was enough to not hamper with the framerate. But I guess the addition of that would start to cause some minor slowdowns computational wise.
 
There are so many interactive elements in the game that require the pointer's precision that I'm not sure how they could be adapted to a regular controller. Hell, you would have to significantly rework the Mogenar fight because of how much it relies on the speed of the pointer.

Mogenar was hell *with* pointer support, they should scrap him if they ever port it lol
 
There are so many interactive elements in the game that require the pointer's precision that I'm not sure how they could be adapted to a regular controller. Hell, you would have to significantly rework the Mogenar fight because of how much it relies on the speed of the pointer.

Clearly, this means it's time for a PC port. It's the only way.
 
I have a question about Dolphin. I can take my GC games and put them in my PC to emulate? Like, I don't have to go download an illegal copy (despite having my own in my hand) and just pop in and play?
 
I have a question about Dolphin. I can take my GC games and put them in my PC to emulate? Like, I don't have to go download an illegal copy (despite having my own in my hand) and just pop in and play?

You'll probably have to rip them to an external hard drive or something first using Wii homebrew.
 
how well will this run on dolphin with the following specs:

8gb ram ddr4
gtx 1060 6gb
i5 6600k
 
Can dolphin display how many polygons are being shown on screen? If so I think you could run Rogue squadron 3 through it and you'll get your answer.

Unfortunately I wouldn't even know what numbers to compare it with. I assume it's competition would mostly be from Xbox games, but I have no idea which one would top the poly count (not to mention where in the game it would top out)
 
The only people who would have claimed PS2 was more capable than Gamecube would have been Sony fanboys.

Xbox--->Gamecube------------------->PS2

That was the popular consensus at the time (of course it didn't matter sales wise for Sony).

To be fair, this wasn't super obviously evident in an apples-to-apples comparison until RE4, as most multiplatform software was built for the PS2 as the primary target. Most people are also pretty bad about delineating technical performance from the aesthetic appeal of the end result, so comparisons between different exclusive titles typically ended up in highly subjective disagreements.
 
Xbox was definitely the strongest but also seemed to encourage less optimization (which I say just based on the end results).

There were a LOT of games on Xbox which ran somewhat poorly or felt unbalanced. They might have a cool shader here or there but suffered from other issues. I used to jokingly refer to janky menu systems as "Xbox menus". You know the type - developers would use a Bink movie as a menu background complete with improper frame pacing which would skip and stutter as you transitioned between different menu levels. This was used so often in so many Xbox games.

...but obviously, that was NOT the fault of the hardware at all.

When exploited, Xbox could produce marvelous results and the most optimized games were real superstars. Ninja Gaiden, for instance, is just nuts for the time with huge poly counts, plenty of neat shaders, high res textures galore, a perfect 60fps, huge streamed levels, etc. Sega did a lot of great stuff on there too.

I think some Xbox games pushed things TOO far, though. Riddick is incredibly impressive for its day BUT it made a lot of sacrifices to get there - it was one of the first games I recall with an adaptive resolution but it often dropped way below 640x480 resulting in a very blocky looking game. Performance wasn't that stable either. Or Halo 2 - again, very very impressive tech but the streaming issues were a real problem and the frame-rate just wasn't that great. These were all games that could not exist on PS2 or GameCube, I would argue, but they don't hold up that well today due to those issues.

Those same types of problems plague so many 360 and PS3 games as well. Bad frame-rates, poor presentations, choppy menus, badly compressed videos, etc. Lots of little things that add up to something that feels impressive in its day but ultimately ages poorly.

Games like Metroid Prime, Ninja Gaiden, and Metal Gear Solid 2 are the real super-stars. They exploit the hardware to just the right level producing beautiful visuals while maintaining super smooth performance. They all hold up beautifully in 2016 due to this while, in comparison, many PS3 and 360 games look and run like garbage in comparison despite pushing more advanced tech.

I do feel Nintendo's approach is the right one for console gaming. If you look back at its Wii U games, you can see it all over - so many 60fps or, at least, rock solid 30fps games. They aren't cutting edge but they use the tech to produce highly attractive games that run like a dream. These games will stand the test of time.

A recent example of this is something like DOOM. It's a beautiful game and it runs basically perfectly on all platforms. It feels great to play as well. It is a game, like Metroid Prime and the others, that will hold up in 15 years. id Software absolutely NAILED it in a way that so few others are doing these days.

So many Amen for just one post. Good read.

Line me in for Metal Gear Solid 2. Would love to see a video from you.

It's just funny how things went with Metal Gear Solid 3 and 4. Especially 4 didn't age well in terms of graphics, especially the framerate is just so poor. This really need a better version. Remaster or PC-Version. But stucked on PS3 we won't even get a good emulated version in the next years.
 
Mogenar was hell *with* pointer support, they should scrap him if they ever port it lol

I think Mogenar was ridiculous to everyone because they all fought him wrong. At least, I know I fought him wrong. I avoided using hypermode as much as possible until I realized midway through the game (when enemies were taking way longer to die than they should) that i was just using it wrong. When you abuse hypermode, Mogenar goes down in a fraction of the time.

They probably should rework him anyway though because he was easily the hardest boss in the game. Kind of made all the other bosses feel a bit premature
 
One of my fav things about the visuals in the prime games was how the light maps cast shadows on samus. It's pretty impressive considering the hardware and framerate.



It's a very subtle effect, but it really adds a lot.
 
There is no spoken dialog in the NTSC version at all. Which, thank God, because honestly it's kind of really stupid lol.

Also, the European version has narrator call-outs for Tallon Overworld and the Impact Crater, neither of which are in the NTSC version, and the Japanese version goes a step further by adding callouts for Frigate Orpheon (Space Pirate Frigate), Chozo Ruins, Lava Caves (Magmoor Caverns), Ice Valley (Phendrana Drifts), and the Phazon Mines, though all only when loading saved games.

Metroid Prime is an interesting one, because it actually got quite a bit of fiddling throughout its localizations, as well as a coupled of patched releases. Nothing major (though the European version had some fairly notable lore changes), but a good bit more than most Nintendo games.
The European version is alot harder too.
 
Xbox was definitely the strongest but also seemed to encourage less optimization (which I say just based on the end results).
My suspicion is that Xbox's architecture encouraged more ambitious decisions, for two reasons:
1-Memory space. More room to dump extra sorts of data to operate on.
2-Costs for some computationally-heavy exotic stuff probably would have been less steep on Xbox's GPU, particularly where lighting is concerned.
That is, I suspect devs were more willing to compromise on performance because such tradeoffs likely often had more bang for the buck.

Or Halo 2 - again, very very impressive tech but the streaming issues were a real problem and the frame-rate just wasn't that great.
I'm surprised that Halo 2's framerate gets singled out sometimes. Obviously it's 30fps, but as 30fps games go it's pretty good. Not totally solid, but the occasional spikes are almost always small and fleeting. Doesn't get hit very badly by split-screen, either.

Halo 1's performance is far less consistent, thanks to very expensive dynamic everything.
 
I've meant to say this on the last couple threads, but keep forgetting. I am really enjoying the mix of well known and more obscure titles that DF Retro is covering.
 
Xbox was definitely the strongest but also seemed to encourage less optimization (which I say just based on the end results).

There were a LOT of games on Xbox which ran somewhat poorly or felt unbalanced. They might have a cool shader here or there but suffered from other issues. I used to jokingly refer to janky menu systems as "Xbox menus". You know the type - developers would use a Bink movie as a menu background complete with improper frame pacing which would skip and stutter as you transitioned between different menu levels. This was used so often in so many Xbox games.

...but obviously, that was NOT the fault of the hardware at all.

When exploited, Xbox could produce marvelous results and the most optimized games were real superstars. Ninja Gaiden, for instance, is just nuts for the time with huge poly counts, plenty of neat shaders, high res textures galore, a perfect 60fps, huge streamed levels, etc. Sega did a lot of great stuff on there too.

I think some Xbox games pushed things TOO far, though. Riddick is incredibly impressive for its day BUT it made a lot of sacrifices to get there - it was one of the first games I recall with an adaptive resolution but it often dropped way below 640x480 resulting in a very blocky looking game. Performance wasn't that stable either. Or Halo 2 - again, very very impressive tech but the streaming issues were a real problem and the frame-rate just wasn't that great. These were all games that could not exist on PS2 or GameCube, I would argue, but they don't hold up that well today due to those issues.

Those same types of problems plague so many 360 and PS3 games as well. Bad frame-rates, poor presentations, choppy menus, badly compressed videos, etc. Lots of little things that add up to something that feels impressive in its day but ultimately ages poorly.

Oh I totally agree with you, A lot of the major the Xbox OG games came from PC developers who were getting their feet wet into the console market. The original Xbox was A watershed movement for PC developers migrating to console. The Unreal Engine got it's major kickstart on the original Xbox. But It also brought fresh-new PC developers that saw the Xbox as another PC, but with a very a specific system requirement that was mandated by Microsoft.

Ninja Gaiden on the other hand, was from a console developer with experience in optimizing games for different consoles.

Bungie was essentially a Mac-centric developer and were working on somewhat fixed hardware settings with the original Mac-Halo. They were kind of like a console developer in many respects. They did a much better job with the Xbox hardware than many others did.

Bizarre Creations was also amazing with their engines. Their Project Gotham games are essential Xbox must-owns if you are into arcade racers. Bizarre had experience with working on consoles.

I totally agree with you, many of the Xbox games had issues with optimization. The original Xbox was a beast, an amazing developer could do mind boggling things on it (maybe even still?) but we never got to see the full potential.


A recent example of this is something like DOOM. It's a beautiful game and it runs basically perfectly on all platforms. It feels great to play as well. It is a game, like Metroid Prime and the others, that will hold up in 15 years. id Software absolutely NAILED it in a way that so few others are doing these days.

Yeah, id Software learned a lot with RAGE. They picked-up how to optimize a game console and design the PC game to match those limitations. The filled the PC version with additional eye candy. DOOM went that route too.

But then again, John Carmack was always pretty good at porting games to consoles. He personally did home console ports for Wolf 3D in the SNES and Jaguar, and then Doom on the Jaguar too. He was also involved with the Doom 3 port on Xbox as well as oversaw the Doom 3 BFG ports. He also did mobile ports of games himself. John Carmack... talented.
 
Was very happy to see DFR cover one of my favorite games ever. Bought a GameCube JUST for it.

I do wish it could have dived into the technical aspects a bit more, though. A comparison with the MPT version would have been great.

MP2 definitely polished the look compared to MP1. I really love the Samus design they implemented in MP2 and mostly kept for MP3.
 
Was the original NES Metroid unlock played on the Gamecube or the GBA? Never had a GBA so I missed on that and the Fusion costume.
 
It was playable on GC.

The Fusion costume is an in-game unlockable on the Wii port, no GBA required.

The original is still unlockable in the Wii U VC version of Zero Mission, at least.


I'm only disappointed by one thing in this analysis. No wire-frame video of the Morph Ball transition. It's still an amazing thing.
 
My suspicion is that Xbox's architecture encouraged more ambitious decisions, for two reasons:
1-Memory space. More room to dump extra sorts of data to operate on.
2-Costs for some computationally-heavy exotic stuff probably would have been less steep on Xbox's GPU, particularly where lighting is concerned.
That is, I suspect devs were more willing to compromise on performance because such tradeoffs likely often had more bang for the buck.

I'm surprised that Halo 2's framerate gets singled out sometimes. Obviously it's 30fps, but as 30fps games go it's pretty good. Not totally solid, but the occasional spikes are almost always small and fleeting. Doesn't get hit very badly by split-screen, either.

Halo 1's performance is far less consistent, thanks to very expensive dynamic everything.
Yeah, you're right, Halo 2 actually runs pretty decently.

The Xbox remains a highly fascinating machine and it's a shame we still haven't seen any solid attempts at emulation.

I totally agree with you, many of the Xbox games had issues with optimization. The original Xbox was a beast, an amazing developer could do mind boggling things on it (maybe even still?) but we never got to see the full potential.
This is true.

I actually think Sega was one of the top developers for Xbox, looking back. Lots of beautiful 60fps titles on there.

Overall, though, it definitely feels like there was a lot of un-used potential in there. I feel that many developers pushed the PS2 to its limits, due to its popularity perhaps, but that didn't happen often on Xbox or even GameCube, really.
 
Overall, though, it definitely feels like there was a lot of un-used potential in there. I feel that many developers pushed the PS2 to its limits, due to its popularity perhaps, but that didn't happen often on Xbox or even GameCube, really.

I think Rouge Squadron 3 was pushing the GameCube really hard. But, you could say that the GameCube never hit it's full potential. It was replaced by the Wii, which was essentially just an overclocked GameCube with a 1.5x boost in CPU and GPU clock speeds with twice as much memory at a higher bandwidth. I don't think we ever really saw the Wii pushed hard.

The original Xbox cut its life even shorter with the 360 being pushed quickly as its replacement. I guess the Xbox did have a 5-year life span, but it feels like it had its life cut to short. I blame the 360-PS3 generation for lasting 8-years.
 
Dark is it possible to post the exact settings used for Dolphin Ishiiruka in this video? I am on a 6700k and 1070 but after much fiddling I can't seem to replicate what I'm seeing in the video.
 
Wonderful video John/dark10x. If it's not too much trouble, would you be able to share your settings for some of the advanced options in Ishiiruka? I've never bothered with things like DOF and AO when I use Dolphin and I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. How stable do you think AO is in this game? Any issues like bleeding through fog? I saw your minimap flickering a lot during the Dolphin footage and my guess was the AO because the minimap is a rendered object.
 
Just finished 1 & 2 (again) but this time on the Wii trilogy.

Currently playing through 3 and loving it. Visually, it really reminds me of Halo: CE
 
The Gamecube was an engineering marvel. How such graphics came out of such a tiny, quiet, reliable box from 2001 is one of the great achievements of console design.

It's like the one of few games where the pointer controls aren't shit. That wins a big thumbs up of approval for me.
Huh?

There's lots to complain about with motion controls on the Wii, but pointer controls were handled well in dozens of games. Light gun games are an obvious example, and point and click games. Many FPS play brilliantly, the Metroid games are not even the top tier there, Medal of Honor Heroes 2 is probably the best, followed by the Conduit games. Of course Corruption is a vastly superior game to those ones, but control wise they take the cake.
 
To be fair, this wasn't super obviously evident in an apples-to-apples comparison until RE4, as most multiplatform software was built for the PS2 as the primary target. Most people are also pretty bad about delineating technical performance from the aesthetic appeal of the end result, so comparisons between different exclusive titles typically ended up in highly subjective disagreements.

Plus, most of the A-level developers were working on exclusively on PS2 at that time. Nintendo themselves were doing great work but using seemingly simple character models that may not have come across as complex as Final Fantasy X or Gran Turismo to most players.
 
Plus, most of the A-level developers were working on exclusively on PS2 at that time. Nintendo themselves were doing great work but using seemingly simple character models that may not have come across as complex as Final Fantasy X or Gran Turismo to most players.

In addition to that It probably didn't help things when the gaming press for years claimed that the Gamecube couldn't do things like bumpmapping, even though there was even a launch game that had it all over the place (Rogue Squadron). I remember Matt Casamassina making claims like that all the way into the Wii era. I mean yeah, it couldn't do full blown Xbox style programmable shaders, but it was able to do far more than they gave it credit for.

It's always frustrating when reviewers comment on technical things that they aren't really familiar with. (With things like them expecting digital games from old consoles to work on new consoles being my current pet peeve. Just because it's digital doesn't mean it will just work. It's no different then getting old disks to work, but anyway, I'm going off on a tangent)
 
I'm not the biggest fan of Metroid Prime, honestly. The slow pace of movement and the super bland combat always left me dropping the game a third or halfway in (I've attempted multiple playthroughs).

Despite that, this is an awesome episode and the game really is a visual accomplishment. Nice breakdown on how the devs focused on high polycounts above all else.

And I think I like your approach to emulation, dark10x: whether or not an emulator like Dolphin or PCSX2 should be used is something that should be taken on a case-by-case basis, and minor tech issues like stuttering and broken effects can be a big deal. I find that the original hardware is far safer to rely on, but I could see Metroid Prime being an outlier due to its geometry-heavy visual style.
 
Great video for an absolutely stellar game. No doubt Super Metroid and the original Metroid Prime were the high points for the series and Prime still nails the Metroid 'feeling" while being really impressive in terms of movement and visuals.

I need to go back and experience it again using the Dolphin emulator that John was using. It's amazing how well the game holds up. Great stuff, DF!
 
Great video, but it did make me wonder about the legalities of using emulators for footage? Presumably, the ROM would have been downloaded--isn't that technically illegal? I'm not commenting on whether it should be illegal or not; I'm just curious if that's an issue on YouTube and/or with the game producers.
 
Great video, but it did make me wonder about the legalities of using emulators for footage? Presumably, the ROM would have been downloaded--isn't that technically illegal? I'm not commenting on whether it should be illegal or not; I'm just curious if that's an issue on YouTube and/or with the game producers.
Dumping your GC and Wii games takes all of 30 minutes from a Wii.
 
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