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[wildfire]

Been arguing the same since the end of the election.

This isn't the way to change things. It only makes people back into a corner and hunker down.

It's still worth it to call out racism for what t is. Shining a light on negative behavior supports the victims and negative reinforcement can have an effect if the recipient is dependent on you for some reason. Otherwise negative reinforcement should be used with caution.

My proof for that. Click on the Vox link in that article further down about why misogyny won this year.

 

[WedgeX]

I'm sorry, I just can't buy the fact that those who've spent their lives labeling people in a way that demeans and disenfranchises them should be exempt from being labelled themselves because of fucking feelings.

The question you, in all seriousness, have to ask yourself in this situation is do you want to call these people out and feel good about being on the right side or try to make these people allies.

 

[BlackJace]

Both groups label in a way that demeans and disenfranchises. This belief that you cannot be racist against whites, and that they should just tough it out because of some perceived privileged, is racist as fuck and completely backwards thinking.

Poor white people who have nothing are the same as poor brown people that have nothing. Treating them differently because their skin is white is textbook racism.

Intersectionality, or more to the point its definition of racism, is a dangerous ideology that is destroying the Democrat Party and pushing needed votes away. It needs to go.

Poor white people and poor black people do not go through the exact same thing, to suggest otherwise is ignorant. Please don't take that as meaning that poor whites don't have their own struggles, but that fact matters that their are institutions in the US that blacks (poor or not) have to face before even getting into the plight that befalls poor whites.

And to clarify, if I'm arguing with someone I perceive to actually be racist, of course I'm not going to begin the argument with "Yeah, well, you're racist!"

I can simply point out that certain line of logic/thinking is racist. Or does that hurt too much?

Let me ask the general public: What about the word racist bothers you so much? Why does it sting on the level of calling someone "stupid/idiotic/ignorant", or a slur?

 

[RDreamer]

So it's the white rural population that actually needs safe spaces and thinks words hurt?

ok

 

[therealist]

I've said this for a long time too and that's why I've always refrained from calling all Trump voters racist. It makes no sense in the context of half the people in the country and half the people I interact with on a day to day basis, who have always treated me with respect and dignity as a minority myself.

The left's unwilling compromise on this issue pushed many moderates to the Republican party.

 

[Maxim726X]

GODDAMN...

Nothing but feelings for people who can't see me as human.

Lets give them fucking HUGS

See, I don't get this.

Okay, so you call people racists and bigots. What have you achieved?

As for some of the posts above- I do talk to people about these issues. A lot.

Because honestly, I used to think like them. After reading the arguments here and looking at the facts years ago, I changed my view. I was born and raised in an almost exclusively white upper middle class suburban town with 1 black kid in my graduating class. I used to bitch about the fact that it would be harder for me to get into college because of affirmative action, etc. Then, I went to a local university- Where I learned more. I saw blatant racism and sexism in the workplace after I graduated. You have to consider that most Trump voters exist in similar bubbles. It takes time, but you *can* change these views, but this is not the way to do it. In my opinion, anyway.

 

[Breads]

Racists don't listen to me though. I'm a hispanic immigrant.

Even more disturbing, personally, is the argument that by caring more about the white working class, the party will somehow abandon social and racial progressiveness.

Like, what? Who says that being more receptive to the needs of those voters will have to come at the expense of minorities? Left my scratching my head.

Your problem is that you're being dishonest with yourself.

We care about the white working class. We care about most kinds, actually. One we care little for are racists.

 

[Maintenance]

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

Spoiler

No, not really.

 

[Croatoan]

Even more disturbing, personally, is the argument that by caring more about the white working class, the party will somehow abandon social and racial progressiveness.

Like, what? Who says that being more receptive to the needs of those voters will have to come at the expense of minorities? Left my scratching my head.

They are more worried about being right than winning. It's hilarious that the "Socially Progressive" people who want to uplift minorities are the ones screaming "Fuck White People, "All White People are Racist", "#WhiteGenocide", etc. The double standard is so obvious, if it was a snake it would have already eaten them.

IMO, this ideology is more about burning down white america than uplifting minorities. It is fueled by pure hate, and racism, against the majority in the guise of social justice.

Poor white people and poor black people do not go through the exact same thing, to suggest otherwise is ignorant. Please don't take that as meaning that poor whites don't have their own struggles, but that fact matters that their are institutions in the US that blacks (poor or not) have to face before even getting into the plight that befalls poor whites.

Let me ask the general public: What about the word racist bothers you so much? Why does it sting on the level of calling someone "stupid/idiotic/ignorant", or a slur?

The word racist actually doesn't bother me. It has been so overused that it has lost all meaning and punch. Calling me a "meany head" has more effect. The words, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, islamaphobic no longer have effectiveness because people are either ignoring them, don't believe they are those things, or simply don't care.

Its the cry wolf syndrome...

 

[prag16]

Sure would be nice if these white liberals would talk to their racist family members and friends.

Nah, better to overtly call these family members and friends fucking disgusting racists, ban them from Thanksgiving dinner, then cut off all contact with them indefinitely.

Way too many on gaf seem to be preparing to do exactly that (or already have in some cases).

 

[Formless]

The key is not to open with racism. Doing an activity, work, or grabbing a meal is the way to show people humanity.

 

[Vermillion]

That's pretty much how any sort of convincing works. You do not change behavior by attacking people.

 

[Somnid]

GODDAMN...

Nothing but feelings for people who can't see me as human.

Lets give them fucking HUGS

I can understand you don't like the idea on an emotional level but do you have a better suggestion?

 

[Coketruck]

What evidence is there that that comment had any impact on the election? People are trying way too hard to pin Hilary's loss on Liberals rightfully calling out Trump's bullshit, when the more likely reasons she lost has nothing to do with that.

In my opinion, her saying that did not wind up being a net positive for her. I doubt she wound up getting more votes (especially in the critical Rust Belt states) than she would have if she hadn't said it. It wasn't a decisive factor or anything, but I don't think the comment wound up helping her. Just my $.02, though.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I refuse to shy away from calling racism out for what it is. But I will absolutely try to be better at avoiding a mercurial attitude when dealing with other human beings about this.

 

[n00bsauce87]

To be fair. The length of time of racial bias held in this country is a lot longer than discrimination against transgender people. I could go on and on about how you can't compare the two.

But why should it be my job to tell the racist to try an obtain empathy for racial minorities?

If I have to explain another American about American history, then it's pointless.

 

[NastyBook]

It doesn't feel good to reduce racism. It feels good to call people names.

What the fuck does this even mean?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I don't think OP even read this whole article tbh

 

[Aaronrules380]

I think you can try to explain and point out racism without explicitly attacking the other party or calling them racists straight up

 

[Maxim726X]

We care about the white working class. We care about most kinds, actually. One we care little for are racists.

Well, this is factually incorrect. Believe what you will

 

[CHC]

I can understand you don't like the idea on an emotional level but do you have a better suggestion?

I just don't think some people are understanding that the link in the OP is a presentation of two academic research papers, not some random moderate's op-ed piece.

People can dislike, but this is the reality. Saying "fuck that" is just accepting the status quo in exchange for a brief moment of righteous anger.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I remember a while back my brother was yelling at my mother because she casually said faggot. It was essentially a yelling match where he kept saying, "because that makes you a piece of shit and a bigot". I assume that's how a lot of these discussions occur. How we talk to people does matter even if one person is 100% wrong. Whether someone wants to accept that is up to them.

 

[wizard341]

To be fair. The length of time of racial bias held in this country is a lot longer than discrimination against transgender people. I could go on and on about how you can't compare the two.

But why should it be my job to tell the racist to try an obtain empathy for racial minorities?

If I have to explain another American about American history, then it's pointless.

Whose job should it be then?

 

[Lime]

I seriously couldn't believe my eyes when I read about that white woman in the study who get a heart attack because of her white fragility.

One of the white participants left the session and went back to her desk, upset at receiving (what appeared to the training team as) sensitive and diplomatic feedback on how some of her statements had impacted several people of color in the room. At break, several other white participants approached us (the trainers) and reported that they had talked to the woman at her desk, and she was very upset that her statements had been challenged. They wanted to alert us to the fact that she literally “might be having a heart-attack.” Upon questioning from us, they clarified that they meant this literally. These co-workers were sincere in their fear that the young woman might actually physically die as a result of the feedback. Of course, when news of the woman’s potentially fatal condition reached the rest of the participant group, all attention was immediately focused back onto her and away from the impact she had had on the people of color.

Holy shit :lol

But it's also sad that the discussion has to center Whiteness again and again.

 

[freeofgreed]

Yeah, no one is suggesting you agree with them or respect their point of view. You have to engage with them to show them why they're wrong, rather than just block them on twitter and think you've made the world a better place.

White people are still the majority, you're gonna have to deal with them for a while.

White people being the majority isn't an issue, it's the racist white people that are the issue and they are not the majority. All evidence points to Hilary absolutely destroying Trump with the popular vote.

I'm not naive enough to think I can convert a racist into a BLM supporter. When I call racist shit out, it's not with the intent to convert that person. It's to make a statement that what that person is doing is wrong, and to let others who aren't racist or who are still developing their world view know that it's wrong.

 

[Breads]

They are more worried about being right than winning. It's hilarious that the "Socially Progressive" people who want to uplift minorities are the ones screaming "Fuck White People, "All White People are Racist", "#WhiteGenocide", etc. The double standard is so obvious, if it was a snake it would have already eaten them.

IMO, this ideology is more about burning down white america than uplifting minorities. It is fueled by pure hate, and racism, against the majority in the guise of social justice.

I'm not going to entertain this stupidity. I'm just quoting it for posterity.

Strawman is strong in this one. Bet you won't find examples who weren't immediately banned.

I see this dishonest bullshit for what it is. Enjoy your victory lap. It won't stop progress.

Well, this is factually incorrect. Believe what you will

I'm sure you have hard evidence to prove this fact.

 

[deli2000]

We've got to start using the SILENCE system.

 

[TruHero]

Seems the article is a bit too woke for most.

 

[StrikeNinja24]

Sure would be nice if these white liberals would talk to their racist family members and friends.

Oh we try. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I was told yesterday that the Black Panthers and the KKK were equally as bad as each other. I jumped out of my seat to call bullshit, and when it looked like the person was on the losing end of the argument (after stating the individual did not care about the feelings of black people), the conversation was diverted to how it would of been "More of the same" with Clinton as president and that I could "be eating crow" if Trump turned out to be a good president.

 

[Aaronrules380]

We've got to start using the SILENCE system.

It's not about not speaking up, it's about how you speak up. You can speak up without being super aggressive or dehumanizing

 

[freeofgreed]

In my opinion, her saying that did not wind up being a net positive for her. I doubt she wound up getting more votes (especially in the critical Rust Belt states) than she would have if she hadn't said it. It wasn't a decisive factor or anything, but I don't think the comment wound up helping her. Just my $.02, though.

It made me like her more.

 

[Maxim726X]

I'm sure you have hard evidence to prove this fact.

Yeah, PoliGAF.

I'll find some posts.

It made me like her more.

Yeah, well that wasn't the effect it had on most. It was used as a rallying cry for the Trump campaign... Turns out, most people that have racist views don't actually think they're racist. And labeling them as such just shuts down all conversation.

But hey, good luck to progressives that believe by yelling down at people you're going to change anything. That's a winning strategy.

 

[R0ckman]

*Link reaches Ganon in the final dungeon after tons of bloodshed at Ganon's hands*

"Let's talk this out..."

 

[studyguy]

The article suggests activists of the trans, minority communities go out and canvass more racially homogenous communities, I mean if you're talking about more hardline communities, I'm not sure I'd feel safe driving out to some as a minority. Bothers me that they suggest new legislation goes into discussion, it should probably be discussed in racial neutral tones till it can't? Then discuss the legislation to death till people understand? Feel like we've seen instances where this sorta falls flat even if you're trying your hardest to reach an accord through compassion.

The onus always seems to fall on the minority to shake the majority out of its stupor regardless of the situation here which in and of itself is depressing.

 

[Croatoan]

What the fuck does this even mean?

He is talking about virtue signaling. Its not that complex of a concept.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

How do you change people who hate you just because you exist?

 

[freeofgreed]

I think you can try to explain and point out racism without explicitly attacking the other party or calling them racists straight up

Why shouldn't we call it what it is?

 

[VendettaRed07]

lol this.


Fuck racists tbh.

Fuck racists. Absolutely.

Fuck people who aren't really aware of what they are contributing to? I mean..If people watch Fox or listen to some of the conservative talk radio shows.. they are constantly trying to spin and reassure people that thing X candidate just said isn't actually racist or is the liberal coastal trying to spin it to win elections. Or some other cases they just simply don't report on or talk about the more egregious examples of it.

it's not really an excuse, but considering how much power and outreach a lot of these news networks have, is it really unbelievable that a lot of people buy into the spin?

 

[Maintenance]

It made me like her more.

I can easily bet Romney supporters said the same in 2012.

 

[freeofgreed]

Oh we try. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I was told yesterday that the Black Panthers and the KKK were equally as bad as each other. I jumped out of my seat to call bullshit, and when it looked like the person was on the losing end of the argument (after stating the individual did not care about the feelings of black people), the conversation was diverted to how it would of been "More of the same" with Clinton as president and that I could "be eating crow" if Trump turned out to be a good president.

You're just not empathizing enough.

 

[Alucrid]

so lets be real here. the authors themselves say that deep canvassing isn't easy or all that scalable.

"It's definitely incredibly difficult," says Justin Klecha of SAVE, the LGBT advocacy group in Miami that provided the canvassers for Broockman and Kalla's study. "One is just having the field staff prioritize this work above all else. … You need to build up leaders, and training, and support, which takes time."

Advocates need months to mobilize enough canvassers to meaningfully change votes on a ballot measure. And even then, the intervention may not work on everyone.

also there's this point

But Broockman and Kalla had also added a twist to the experiment. In the survey sent after six weeks, the researchers attempted to destroy any goodwill the canvassers might have sown for trans rights with an anti-trans attack ad. (Ads like these highlight the claim that transgender rights laws will allow predatory males to enter women's bathrooms.)

The results of the six-week survey suggested that the immediate effect of the ad was that it diminished support for a trans-supportive law in both groups. But then at three months, that effect of the ad disappeared for the intervention group — as if they had been vaccinated against prejudice.

so people who have these conversations are easily swayed to the other side by information they receive regardless of it's validity or accuracy. while the study shows that the effect wears off people don't just get one random anti-transgender ad in the mail. they read breitbart. they read the fake facebook news. they follow donald trump on twitter. they're under a constant barrage of news that continually demonizes minorities.

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/7/11380974/reduce-prejudice-science-transgender

 

[Azih]

Look I'm not saying don't call racist shit out. I'm saying don't be an asshole about it.

There's a world of difference between "Hey man, that's not cool" and "You're a racist piece of shit!". The first may work. The second never will.

 

[Croatoan]

I'm not going to entertain this stupidity. I'm just quoting it for posterity.

Strawman is strong in this one. Bet you won't find examples who weren't immediately banned.

I see this dishonest bullshit for what it is. Enjoy your victory lap. It won't stop progress.



I'm sure you have hard evidence to prove this fact.

What? Victory lap? I voted for Hillary, look at my post history? Also, if you haven't seen what I have been talking about then you are either being disingenuous or blind.

 

[Coketruck]

It made me like her more.

Yes, but I'm sure you were going to vote for her anyway, so in your case it didn't matter. I'm thinking more of the Rust Belt voters that went for Obama in 2008 and 2012 but switched their vote to Trump this time.

 

[theignoramus]

Both groups label in a way that demeans and disenfranchises. This belief that you cannot be racist against whites, and that they should just tough it out because of some perceived privileged, is racist as fuck and completely backwards thinking.

Poor white people who have nothing are the same as poor brown people that have nothing. Treating them differently because their skin is white is textbook racism.

Intersectionality, or more to the point its definition of racism, is a dangerous ideology that is destroying the Democrat Party and pushing needed votes away. It needs to go.

Theres no such thing as Black or Brown supremacy anywhere in the Western fucking Hemisphere. Racism from PoC toward Whites is namecalling or isolated acts of violence from a private citizen.
There is no major organization or institutional structure anywhere in North America that reinforces any kind of racial hierarchy where Whites end up at the bottom.
So go ahead and make some stupid false equivalence about racism, while literally every country on this side of the Atlantic suffers from social imbalances caused by centuries old White supremacist ideas.

 

[freeofgreed]

I can easily bet Romney supporters said the same.

And? Obama won without Romney supporters. Again you guys are trying way to hard to blame Trump's win on Liberals calling out racism, when the real issue was with Clinton and the structural problems in her campaign.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Why shouldn't we call it what it is?

You can call racist behavior racist without saying that the person maliciously hates black people. You can explain why things hurt black people or other minorities without getting into a shouting match. Most of these people don't actually hate black people (though some do), they're just selfish and ignorant and more concerned with their own problems than those of others. You should be careful about how you "call it what it is" because it's often counter productive. That's the whole point of this research

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

I fully agree with the study and completely disagree with people's attitudes of "well, I'm just gonna call racism for what it is."

Should you have to put up with racist people or racist comments? Of course not.
Does a lot of this racism come from a place of hate? Of course it does.

But, if the goal is to actually reduce these negative attitudes from people on the right, then we should be open minded to all possible solutions, including swallowing our pride and taking time to talk to people, empathize with them, etc.

If that really works, then doing it DOESN'T mean that you think they're a special butterfly that needs your special attention in a special safe space. It's just the pragmatic thing to do.

Why shouldn't we call it what it is?

Because the goal is not to shame people into submission, it's to get them on our side. It seems a lot of people care more about winning the argument and not about advancing the conversation in a positive place. Dropping the mic on a racist feels real good, but if that makes him less likely to agree with you; then what was the point?

 

[Lime]

It's not about not speaking up, it's about how you speak up. You can speak up without being super aggressive or dehumanizing

The problem is that white people are so fragile that any sort of opposition is considered super aggressive.

"I'm sorry I don't think that BLM are terrorists because of institutionalized racism, police brutality, etc., so they are fighting a good cause that I ally myself with"
"Oh my god are you calling me racist?!?!?? I better vote for a racist now that you've called me racist, that's the only thing to do"

 

[Alucrid]

What? Victory lap? I voted for Hillary, look at my post history? Also, if you haven't seen what I have been talking about then you are either being disingenuous or blind.

so are you going to have this talk with your family or not?

My entire family, including my wife, voted for Trump. I am the only one who voted Hillary. I plan on having a wonderful thanksgiving and Christmas with them. B..b.b.but how could you have fun with racists?!?!! Because, I am an adult and I realize it was just a fucking election (oh and a vote for a supreme court justice doesn't make you racist). In four years there will be another one, and another four years after that.

This hyperbolic bullshit happens on both sides when they lose. Lots of tantrums and cries of Nazism and Fascism. Then life goes back to normal and the president does absolutely nothing for 4-8 years. Happens every time, yet people seem to act like its always a new concept.

This year is particularly bad because, for a certain subset of Millennials, this is their first loss, and they didn't even get a participation trophy.