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[Scrooge McDuck]

Well i disagree. As a straight white male, most characters I love aren't white and many of them aren't male or straight. A character is relatable based on their personality, morals, etc... actual important stuff.

But hey I realize i am in the minority... like i said i was in denial about how many shallow people there are out there...

Even the most superficial of representation could mean so much when you don't usually have any. At that point, honestly, them actually being relatable is kinda a secondary concern.

It may not even necessarily as meaningful as a marginalized person finding solace and strength in characters that represent themselves. Sometimes it's just really neat to suddenly see the rare high-profile person with the same skin color as oneself in the medium one enjoys.

Which I guess is a feeling you don't really get because as a straight white male, you are already represented aplenty.

 

[gafneo]

That'd be fucked up even if Ellie was straight. She was his surrogate daughter.

Controversial subject matters get people talking

 

[Weltall Zero]

‏@sapphicgeek

Thanks for sharing that, that was great. And heartbreaking to think how many more people will be going through that, doubly so in countries where outing yourself as gay is a death sentence.

Well i disagree. As a straight white male, most characters I love aren't white and many of them aren't male or straight. A character is relatable based on their personality, morals, etc... actual important stuff.

But hey I realize i am in the minority... like i said i was in denial about how many shallow people there are out there...

Is heterosexual, says that sexual orientation is not actually important, then in the same breath calls everyone but himself "shallow". Oookeey chief.

That'd be fucked up even if Ellie was straight. She was his surrogate daughter.

I fully agree, it's gross. Fuck, Joel could perfectly be his *granddad*. Wonder what would these people think if the ages were reversed.

 

[Alienfan]

Is Ellie actually gay? I haven't played Left Behind (looking forward to it now though) , but people usually forget bisexual people exist, or the fact people can change their orientation in later years, have any of the writers come out and said "yes, Ellie is gay"? I'm going to assume they have, but I was wondering if someone could just confirm

 

[Frozenprince]

Is Ellie actually gay? I haven't played Left Behind (looking forward to it now though) , but people usually forget bisexual people exist, or the fact people can change their orientation in later years, have any of the writers come out and said "yes, Ellie is gay"? I'm going to assume they have, but I was wondering if someone could just confirm

Yes, Neil Druckman point blank says that she is gay.

 

[GravityInsanity]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

 

[Acquiescence]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

The ship that nobody wanted.

 

[CornBurrito]

Well i disagree. As a straight white male, most characters I love aren't white and many of them aren't male or straight. A character is relatable based on their personality, morals, etc... actual important stuff.

But hey I realize i am in the minority... like i said i was in denial about how many shallow people there are out there...

I don't think you can understand why representation is important for minorities.

 

[zsynqx]

Controversial subject matters get people talking

I just don't see it happening. There was no indication in the the first game that Joel had that side to him. Unless he's gone through some major transformation in the five years following the original, then it just wouldn't make sense for his character to do that. Joel's a bad guy, but not in that way.

The ship that nobody wanted.

Oh god

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Well i disagree. As a straight white male, most characters I love aren't white and many of them aren't male or straight. A character is relatable based on their personality, morals, etc... actual important stuff.

But hey I realize i am in the minority... like i said i was in denial about how many shallow people there are out there...

Oh you poor, misunderstood genius. How terrible a tragedy it is that we are such shallow people compared to your enlightened self.

 

[Weltall Zero]

‏Did these people seriously get banned over this? I thought GAF was a place that promoted respectful, non-offensive freedom of speech? I don't get it, I hope I don't get banned as well.

Posting in a thread with "why does this even matter" is the opposite of respectful (especially when it has been pointed out over and over why does it matter). It's shitposting and bannable by the TOS.

 

[gafneo]

The ship that nobody wanted.

Little did they know, this was their way of prophesying a Cosplay for The Last of Us part 2.

 

[cyborgnumberblue]

Not really, Ellie grew up in a militarized zone and talks very much like a teenager today does, if they grew up outside of such zones you'd have a point but aside from being taught to survive in a zone they're relatively normal people.

I really don't agree. The militarized zones were many times almost as fucked up as the outside areas, I wouldn't really call circumstances "normal".

In fact, I think the game goes out of its way to show that even those that appear normal are actually quite the opposite (David). In fact, arguably the most "normal" set of characters end up dead (Henry and Sam).

 

[Dantis]

Question: what is considered 'super gay'?
Because in my mind, it would be that it puts gay themes at the forefront of the narrative - in its imagery and story and whatnot - and I think that would be potentially disappointing for fans of the first game and also incredibly unlikely due to potential impact on sales.

If it means that Ellie has a girlfriend or whatever though, sure, that might happen.

 

[gafneo]

So a stark contrast, one more relevant than the other but a good plot twist is hard to make while shocking audiences and keeping the story interesting. A plot twist is like Russian roulette it can either make your day or kill it.

You can argue that, or we can give you a bad sounding twist on purpose, and creativly find a way to have it gel into the realm of possibility. Any twist could fail if delivered sloppy.

 

[Madame M]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

Got this idea from The Bible? Very Lot and his daughter(s).

 

[Shaanyboi]

Question: what is considered 'super gay'?
Because in my mind, it would be that it puts gay themes at the forefront of the narrative - in its imagery and story and whatnot - and I think that would be potentially disappointing for fans of the first game and also incredibly unlikely due to potential impact on sales.

If it means that Ellie has a girlfriend or whatever though, sure, that might happen.

It means they shouldn't have to apologize or "sneak in" gay undertones under the guise of "subtlety" or some character twist in order to protect peoples' sensitivity to anything not aligning with straight relationships.

 

[gafneo]

Got this idea from The Bible? Very Lot and his daughter(s).

Cool, that same thing happened in The Bible?

 

[Frozenprince]

It means they shouldn't have to apologize or "sneak in" gay undertones under the guise of "subtlety" or some character twist in order to protect peoples' sensitivity to anything not aligning with straight relationships.

Jesus is this simple concept still so difficult for people to understand?

 

[Razmos]

Question: what is considered 'super gay'?
Because in my mind, it would be that it puts gay themes at the forefront of the narrative - in its imagery and story and whatnot - and I think that would be potentially disappointing for fans of the first game and also incredibly unlikely due to potential impact on sales.

If it means that Ellie has a girlfriend or whatever though, sure, that might happen.

I think they are just exaggerating. They just mean that they want gay themes to be present, which could be anything from Ellie off-handedly mentioning a previous girlfriend to even maybe having a love interest in game.

I don't see possibly how or why gay themes would be at the "forefront of the narrative" any more than any straight romance would be important in some games.

"Gay themes" is just normal, standard romance that you'd see anywhere, just with same sex couples. The idea that it is somehow different to the countless depictions of heterosexual relationships is just mystifying to me. How do people not see that it's the same?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

....

I'm so glad you aren't working for Naughty Dog. Jesus christ, I wonder if people like you that make video games are why so many game stories are awful, if you think this makes for good writing.

Controversial subject matters get people talking

In other words, "let's be all edgy to rile people up lol". No thanks.

 

[Dantis]

Jesus is this simple concept still so difficult for people to understand?

I love how you're acting like a) the term 'super gay' is both established and unambiguous and b) everyone should understand its meaning.

Don't be ridiculous.

'JESUS HOW IS EVERYONE NOT AS OPEN MINDED AS ME'

Come on now.

If the whole point of this thread is just a really weird way to say 'Ellie should be openly gay', then yes, the author is right. And I think that might happen. But there are easier ways to say it, and when you're obnoxious and condescending about it, you're just as bad as the people who are saying 'who cares?'.

If it really bothered you, surely you'd want people to see why they were wrong, rather than berate them and show off your superior civility?

I think they are just exaggerating. They just mean that they want gay themes to be present, which could be anything from Ellie off-handedly mentioning a previous girlfriend to even maybe having a love interest in game.

I don't see possibly how or why gay themes would be at the "forefront of the narrative" any more than any straight romance would be important in some games.

"Gay themes" is just normal, standard romance that you'd see anywhere, just with same sex couples. The idea that it is somehow different to the countless depictions of heterosexual relationships is just mystifying to me. How do people not see that it's the same?

Right. So then the question becomes more broadly 'do I think sexuality should be at the forefront of Last of Us?', to which the answer is still absolutely not.

 

[Nibel]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

This idea is so fucking stupid that after living through 2016 I can see it actually being the most realistic idea for the story

 

[gafneo]

....

I'm so glad you aren't working for Naughty Dog. Jesus christ, I wonder if people like you that make video games are why so many game stories are awful, if you think this makes for good writing.


In other words, "let's be all edgy to rile people up lol". No thanks.

Of course, whatever ending The Last of Us Part 2 is given, this same fan review will end up on Metacritic with a 1/10.

 

[tintin1029]

Controversial subject matters get people talking

Little did they know, this was their way of prophesying a Cosplay for The Last of Us part 2.

You can argue that, or we can give you a bad sounding twist on purpose, and creativly find a way to have it gel into the realm of possibility. Any twist could fail if delivered sloppy.

Cool, that same thing happened in The Bible?

 

[Batman7]

I wonder as to what type of Ending they will go for.

 

[Paracelsus]

You know, Ellie, we really are The Last of Us

Spoiler

agi Drop

.

 

[Symphonia]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

Isn't the game set a few years after the original? In which Ellie was 14. I don't think Joel goes for jailbait. I know Naughty Dog broached the subject of rape and pedophilia in the original where David was concerned, but Joel and Ellie - Jellie, if you will - is one step too far beyond fucked up.

 

[gafneo]

Isn't the game set a few years after the original? In which Ellie was 14. I don't think Joel goes for jailbait. I know Naughty Dog broached the subject of rape and pedophilia in the original where David was concerned, but Joel and Ellie - Jellie, if you will - is one step too far beyond fucked up.

Hold on, thought she was 20 in the Neil Druckman interview.

edit: Shes 19
http://www.polygon.com/2016/12/3/13830334/the-last-of-us-2-main-character-playstation-experience

 

[Movalpolos]

I would like them to make whatever story they want.

 

[Magwik]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

 

[Palette Swap]

This reads like one of these old school Mass Effect threads when things got really weird and graphic.

The ship that nobody wanted.

BRB, bleaching my eyes and setting myself on fire.

 

[Razmos]

Right. So then the question becomes more broadly 'do I think sexuality should be at the forefront of Last of Us?', to which the answer is still absolutely not.

Yep, I think most people would agree on that point.

For me, just having Ellie be gay (and at the very least confirmed in dialogue) would be amazing. A gay protagonist in a mainstream AAA game? And a female one at that? Simply incredible.

 

[Lady Gaia]

It means they shouldn't have to apologize or "sneak in" gay undertones under the guise of "subtlety" or some character twist in order to protect peoples' sensitivity to anything not aligning with straight relationships.

Bingo. On one of the many occasions when gay themes in games came up and Bill was cited as an example we had quite a few GAFers saying "Bill was gay? How did you know?" They were somehow able to ignore all the subtext on the subject. The writing in this case was pretty damned good, but it can also be the hallmark of writing a gay character who isn't too gay to avoid triggering delicate straight sensibilities.

A character isn't defined by arbitrary things like gender, sexual orientation, or race. Nobody cares about that stuff. Give me a brave, funny character over a character that "looks like me!" any day...

Let's see...

Well i disagree. As a straight white male...

Right. So you're not exactly starved for representation, are you? You don't spend much of your day wondering whether you'll be hounded again today for existing, and whether people are going to actively try to erase anyone like you from history or push you back in the closet because you've finally made some social strides. So you have the privilege of enjoying an occasional departure from the day-to-day norm of being in the solid majority of everything.

Your identity and viewpoint aren't invalid, but they do represent an incredibly sheltered existence that is far from universal.

 

[cordy]

These Joel/Ellie plots are hilarious to me. Not grossed out or anything (because it does happen) just funny because I've always considered them as the father/daughter pairing type until I searched across the internet. With that said, if they want to show Ellie as a lesbian and go full-on with it, I'd be ok with it. It's an interesting side that they could take and it would benefit the story given ND's storytelling. They've done great so far, I doubt they'd fail with it.

Go ahead, I'm cool with it. Even if she's gay and she's getting revenge on her girlfriend/wife, the story would be less about how gay she is and more about her being in love and wanting revenge. That takes place above any sexual orientation.

 

[gafneo]

Sorry guys, I'm not trolling but can clearly see you are not having it.

 

[Symphonia]

Hold on, thought she was 20 in the Neil Druckman interview.

I stand corrected. Still pretty messed up, though. Ellie is like a surrogate daughter to Joel, and Joel is the father figure in Ellie's life. Any sort of sexual relationship between the two would be almost incestuous. I don't think Naughty Dog would want that sort of controversy on their hands. Or would they?

 

[Aytumious]

Posting in a thread with "why does this even matter" is the opposite of respectful (especially when it has been pointed out over and over why does it matter). It's shitposting and bannable by the TOS.

I think you quoted the wrong person there.

 

[Tadpole]

But would putting Ellie's sexuality up front add anything to a game like this? Maybe in a GTA game but I don't know about this kind of game. Just a thought.

 

[Madame M]

Cool, that same thing happened in The Bible?

Yeah dude it's a pretty dope read, that part is at the beginning too.

 

[SprachBrooks]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

Gold. What happens in The Last of Us 3 though?

 

[Madame M]

I don't need to be re-assured that my sexuality or gender or race is of any form of superiority

Interesting use of re-assured

 

[Lady Gaia]

A fair point, but with two pieces that I take exception too. Firstly, you're assuming that as white heterosexual males that we're seeking and thriving on the representation in the media that there is when the truth is, we don't...

You don't need to. It's been there your whole life so there isn't a void to fill. You also haven't had a society constantly trying to tell you that you're less valid and reinforcing that message with a lack of visibility. The first step toward empathy with a minority is to listen and assume that there's actually some validity to their lived experience. Trust us when we say it's empowering to see ourselves represented well in mass media.

 

[Sai-kun]

Why can't people just be people and diversity be the language of who we are as a species?

because straight people still murder queer people just for being queer

hope this helps

edit: how did you ask what i quoted, and then go on to answer your own question? lmbo

 

[SolidSnakex]

But would putting Ellie's sexuality up front add anything to a game like this? Maybe in a GTA game but I don't know about this kind of game. Just a thought.

As I brought up before, the series really hasn't dealt with how a relationship would work in a world like that. So, that would be an obvious aspect that it could bring to the game. Especially for someone like Ellie whose first love died after being bitten and whose had to watch other die the same way.

 

[Madame M]

This is a pretty good thread it has the same number of posts about the MvC3U character select and stage select discussion thread, but the topic is focused in on one identity instead of a roster.

 

[lightskintwin]

This is a pretty good thread it has the same number of posts about the MvC3U character select and stage select discussion thread, but the topic is focused in on one identity instead of a roster.

What is this supposed to mean?

 

[Alebrije]

I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.

 

[hairygreenpeas]

Ngl, one of the things I'm pretty excited about Ellie being the main and primary protagonist this time around is the possibility of exploring her queer/gay identity. Seeing just how well they handled her relationship with Riley in Left Behind shows so much promise. <3

 

[Frozenprince]

You literally just wrote five paragraphs to say "I have gay friends".

Of course you don't understand or see why more representation of LGBT people is a positive thing for LGBT people, because you're not on the spectrum and thus don't have too empathize with it on the level someone who is does.

It's stupidly simple, having more representation is a positive affirmation of normalcy that I and many others DID NOT GET when we were growing up.

Yes, some people still murder gay people for being gay. Some people murder black people for being black. Some people murder white people for being white. Some people murder others for being of another religion. Some people murder people because they are from another race.

It's a sick and twisted world we live in but it's no different to the experience some people are having in the world right now. You're not alone in the plight to survive.

Singling out one particular variable is almost like flaunting some sort of privilege in itself. Which is ironic given that the argument quite often made is 'privilege.' Dangerous word in the right hands. Language can be as dangerous as any bullet and the word itself easily commands a kind of moral high ground that I don't feel suitable for most conversations. I mean I've met stuck up rich people here in England who believe that because they're from a higher class they have god given rights and are have a certain 'privilege' for it but I've never felt that way because I'm straight and someone else is gay? A persons happiness is more important to me than trying to define or stereotype them.

No. You don't get to dismiss this:

Which doesn't even cover that it's de facto illegal in places like Russia and China.

"I don't care about it as long as people are happy" is a statement utterly reserved for those born with the privilege of never dealing with discrimination a day in their lives.