Waypoint: I Hope ‘The Last of Us Part II’ is Super Gay (Spoilers)

Left Behind is very much a love story. I'm going to be generous and assume people didn't see it because they're not used to seeing actual relationships in a game.

I don't doubt the same people would obviously have the same concerns if either Riley or Elie were a boy, and would think it's too subtle too.
 
Frozenprince said:
People are so conditioned by heteronormativity that they don't even register the possibility that these two are giving each other the fuck me eyes for basically every scene they are in together.
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It is like Captain America and Winter Soldier ... if one of them was a woman they would already be married with a white fence but NOOO "where are you seeing that they love each other there is nothing there"
 
I've commented on this before, but I find it really interesting that The Last Of Us has set up a lesbian to be in possession of potentially world-saving genetics. There could be a truly incredible story there... But I kinda think video games aren't there yet. Hell, I don't know that ANY media could tackle that kind of story well.

Either way, Ellie is who she is, and you had best believe that that sort of thing is gonna come up in the postapocalypse, even without the added onus of possibly saving humanity with her children.
 
A character isn't defined by arbitrary things like gender, sexual orientation, or race. Nobody cares about that stuff. Give me a brave, funny character over a character that "looks like me!" any day...
 
hoogafanter said:
A character isn't defined by arbitrary things like gender, sexual orientation, or race. Nobody cares about that stuff. Give me a brave, funny character over a character that "looks like me!" any day...
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People do care, and it does make a tremendous difference:
http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=226064756

That story is but one of many. It matters tremendously and thus should be encouraged and celebrated as much as possible to have as many happy stories as that one as possible, not derided and completely shut down. Because even if it doesn't matter to you, there are plenty of people in this world who it does matter to, and it makes their lives just even that much better and that more full of happiness and even if someone personally can't fully understand that or whatever I still hope that would be clear enough reason for anyone. It certainly is for me.
 
hoogafanter said:
A character isn't defined by arbitrary things like gender, sexual orientation, or race. Nobody cares about that stuff. Give me a brave, funny character over a character that "looks like me!" any day...
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Gender, sexual orientation and race are all things that easily define characters and the stories they are in.

These things are literally the most important parts of characters in terms of how they interact with people in their worlds, or what the story is even about. I don't think Moonlight would be the same movie if it was about a straight white dude.
 
cyborgnumberblue said:
I don't wonder about it, they are clearly attracted to each other. That was never my point. My point was that both these characters are born 6 years into a 20 year period of absolute societal collapse. What they value in emotional attachment to other people/partners is going to be different than what people born before it. I'd imagine sexual proclivity and the nature of romantic relationship to be a much more fluid thing considering that.

Anyways, I am unaware of the developers stating overtly that she was homosexual, so my bad if that's the case. If she's gay, she's gay and that's it.
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Not really, Ellie grew up in a militarized zone and talks very much like a teenager today does, if they grew up outside of such zones you'd have a point but aside from being taught to survive in a zone they're relatively normal people.

hoogafanter said:
A character isn't defined by arbitrary things like gender, sexual orientation, or race. Nobody cares about that stuff. Give me a brave, funny character over a character that "looks like me!" any day...
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"i don't see race/gender/sexuality." coupled with a healthy dosage of projecting the "I don't care so nobody else does" mindset. Hey guess what, PEOPLE DO CARE. I care that I got two big budget games this year that allow me to play as a black protagonist.
 
Well i disagree. As a straight white male, most characters I love aren't white and many of them aren't male or straight. A character is relatable based on their personality, morals, etc... actual important stuff.

But hey I realize i am in the minority... like i said i was in denial about how many shallow people there are out there...
 
Crossing Eden said:
Besides the writers very clearly saying "Yes she's homosexual. That entire thing was written with it in mind."
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Did they actually say this or do you mean the content of the DLC makes it obvious. Because there are many sexual orientations and having a homosexual attraction/relationship doesn't make you homosexual.
 
Ralemont said:
Did they actually say this or do you mean the content of the DLC makes it obvious. Because there are many sexual orientations and having a homosexual attraction/relationship doesn't make you homosexual.
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It's straight from Neil

Is Ellie gay?

Druckmann: “Now when I was writing it I was writing it I was writing it with the idea that Ellie is gay, and when the actresses were working they were definitely working with the idea that they’re both attracted to each other. That was the subtext and intention that they were playing with from the opening cinematic when they’re holding each other’s hands for too long, or when Riley bites her on the neck; there’s that chemistry there from the get go that was important for us so that we earned that moment when they kissed each other. So that it wasn’t just out of the blue but also wasn’t so overt that you’re like “Oh of course. Just get on with it.”
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Messofanego said:
LISA the Painful RPG is a super gay post apocalypse, but not exactly very strong relationships since everyone is a pervert in a men-dominated world :P

tumblr_inline_nh2xwqbNF81r35ep2.png
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Yeah. And I remember a recent fallout-ish RPG being really gay too. I wish I remembered it's name.
 
Kudos on that thread title, I'm certain it immediately triggered people from the get go. I can't wait to go this thread and see them banned. LOL

Would be dope as hell if she has a same sex love interest in this.
 
Twiforce said:
Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.
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I know this is a discussion for the gay community, rather than here most likely. But in case people think this is a unanimous view in the gay community, it is not.

I am gay and I am not in the same kind of mindset as this. I don't mean we've reached equality, but not everyone is defined by their sexuality like this. It certainly won't mean I can't relate to straight characters to the extent I gravitate to gay media, to use a specific and relevant example.

I am so excited there is an gay/bi main character for arguably one of the biggest titles announced this year. But as with all media if it's written like shit, that is what matters to me.

Not to say the poster I've quoted is wrong for their opinion, it's just one I wanted to challenge as a gay man, myself.

There's something to be said for being true to a character and while there could be other well written extroverted LGBT characters in this game, nothing about Ellie is extroverted.
 
Pound_lb003 said:
I know this is a discussion for the gay community, rather than here most likely. But in case people think this is a unanimous view in the gay community, it is not.

I am gay and I am not in the same kind of mindset as this. I don't mean we've reached equality, but not everyone is defined by their sexuality like this. It certainly won't mean I can't relate to straight characters to the extent I gravitate to gay media, to use a specific and relevant example.

I am so excited there is an gay/bi main character for arguably one of the biggest titles announced this year. But as with all media if it's written like shit, that is what matters to me.

Not to say the poster I've quoted is wrong for their opinion, it's just one I wanted to challenge as a gay man, myself.

There's something to be said for being true to a character and while there could be other well written extroverted LGBT characters in this game, nothing about Ellie is extroverted.
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Thanks for sharing :)
 
Palette Swap said:
Left Behind is very much a love story. I'm going to be generous and assume people didn't see it because they're not used to seeing actual relationships in a game.

I don't doubt the same people would obviously have the same concerns if either Riley or Elie were a boy, and would think it's too subtle too.
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I would, but that's because I tend to find relationships is media... bad. As in easily overall the single thing entertainment is the worst at. I want my relationships subtle most likely because I expect them to be horrible and want them minimized, really, to avoid the chance that it outright ruins things.

Like anything, I'm always open to being pleasantly surprised, but I think relationships are so personal that it's also tough to make something universal (not in a "It's two dudes, how can I relate to this?" way but rather in what creates chemistry and proves divisive or uniting factors in the relationship, etc.) You could show plenty of people the classic Disney romance and they'll be appalled by it. Same thing for the "modern indie comedy" route where everyone is just varying degrees of self-entitled and shitty, or "New York romance" where a simple misunderstanding somehow becomes the driving action for a third of the movie for no good reason besides "it's a film and we need to generate conflict".

As to The Last of Us, giving Ellie a love interest could be terrible or it could be essential to the type of story they're trying to tell (or, it could be essential and also terribly told, but while I have lots of gripes with Naughty Dog they are nothing if not competent at execution.) At this point we know nothing really concrete about the direction they're taking so its premature to do anything but get riled up and hyped about your own personal expectations.
 
The fact that people find Ellie's relationship with Riley as subtle is ridiculous to me.

If Riley was a dude, it would've been seen as obvious to everyone. But since she's a girl, everyone has to think it's 'subtle' for some reason.

That's pretty much the problem a lot of people here seem to not get. The idea of a man and a woman dating can be as obvious as it wants, but woman and woman, man and man? "No, it should only be implied, or else my dick will get uncomfortable."

billy beane said:
Bruh it isn't cool to use gay as a derogatory it's offensive.
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tumblr_nxsdkdODYh1rlergfo2_500.gif
 
tintin1029 said:
The fact that people find Ellie's relationship with Riley as subtle is ridiculous to me.

If Riley was a dude, it would've been seen as obvious to everyone. But since she's a girl, everyone has to think it's 'subtle' for some reason.

That's pretty much the problem a lot of people here seem to not get. The idea of a man and a woman dating can be as obvious as it wants, but woman and woman, man and man? "No, it should only be implied, or else my dick will get uncomfortable."
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If both were boys i dont think we would have much discussion either...
Everybody would say its in your face
 
Personally I would rather all relationships in games and movies were 100% lesbian. Double the chance of a boob shot! Just my honest opinion though, don't kill me.
 
hoogafanter said:
I never understood that "in my face" argument... like yeah anything that you witness is in your face no shit...
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"I know it's in my face when my dick's uncomfortable from it."

That's more or less the argument.

Naudi said:
Personally I would rather all relationships in games and movies were 100% lesbian. Double the chance of a boob shot! Just my honest opinion though, don't kill me.
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You're the hero Gaf deserves.
 
I think it's great that Ellie is a lesbian but I honestly don't think TLOU2 will be delving much into romance. Ellie looked fucking pissed in that trailer. She's out for blood!
 
StrawberryJam said:
I think it's great that Ellie is a lesbian but I honestly don't think TLOU2 will be delving much into romance. Ellie looked fucking pissed in that trailer. She's out for blood!
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Maybe she's out for blood because of romance. Maybe she needs the romance to get out of the blood needing.

Who knows.
 
tintin1029 said:
Maybe she's out for blood because of romance. Maybe she needs the romance to get out of the blood needing.

Who knows.
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Yeah, fair point. I guess I'm still thinking of her from Joel's point of view, like a daughter to him, and the last thing he was thinking about was her sexuality.
 
People can choose to define their characters however they like, but I never really got the sense that Ellie was ever "defined" by her sexuality and I seriously doubt that's gonna change in this game.
 
shadowsdarknes said:
Not necessarily, no.

If you are going to design a lesbian character, and have her identity (which is one of a subculture), it needs to be approached differently.

Refer back to the original post in this thread. About homosexuality being its own unique subculture. If people want Ellie designed where her sexuality isn't one of her major defining characteristics, then it's a reflection of uncomfortable straight people. If people want Ellie to be defined by her sexuality as a major defining characteristic, then we need to acknowledge that this would require a different degree of attention and design than if her sexuality were to be of low interest to the storyline or if she were made to be straight.
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Nope sorry. These are characters. People have been writing about characters from walks off life separate then their own for a few years now. As a writer I don't need to approach certain characters differently than I do others, and I certainly don't need to do so to appease a consumer base that is "uncomfortable" regardless of how much of this individuals identity I am going to flesh out.
 
Twiforce said:
Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.
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Amazing post, bra-vo. Requoting in its entirety for great justice, and saving a link to it for the next few hundred times someone elogiates a character being "gay in a subtle manner" (seriously, even my best friends who are otherwise really forward thinking and progressive fall into that trap all the time, what the fuck is up with that?).

As an aside, GAF really needs a "favorite / bookmarked posts" function the same way it has a "favorite threads" one.
 
hoogafanter said:
yeah my bad i forgot those... also fashion sense, hairstyle, and belt size...
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The fact that you're equating these is, honestly, really gross.

It's not still illegal and punishable by DEATH in most of the world to have a weird hairstyle.

It is to be gay. Or a different religion, or a different color.

Like...

What the hell.
 
I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.
 
gafneo said:
I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.
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That'd be fucked up even if Ellie was straight. She was his surrogate daughter.
 
gafneo said:
I think Joel should fall for Ellie and not know about her sexual orientation. He lays a kiss on her and things get weird between them. Long story short, a twist of events occur where they are the last two humans alive. Catch is, they have a second shot to save a wide spread of humans by procreation. Ellie has still not heard about "The other way to save humanity" so Joel pulls a fast one and does things the selfish way again. Last of Us 3 in the making.
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Stop
 
WraithBringer said:
I can't see that happening. Ellie pretty much became Joel's surrogate daughter. He grew to love her in a fatherly way and that's the way the relationship panned out. She filled a huge gap that had been gone from his life as evidently shown at the ending when he can finally freely talk about his little girl that you never get the sense that it is that kind of relationship at all. Plus I imagine they'd have given more hints about a romance between them in the first venture. I'm more inclined to appreciate the Joel is dead theory and Ellie is having hallucinations like Mr Robot but I don't like the idea of Joel being dead. So... yeah.
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Not imagining it happening is how to make things interesting and unpredictable. It would be boring if we really could guess the motivations of characters we thought we knew.
 
gafneo said:
Not imagining it happening is how to make things interesting and unpredictable. It would be boring if we really could guess the motivations of characters we thought we knew.
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it's not a horrible trope that parents don't fall in love with their surrogate children lmfao

oh no, so boring
 
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