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[FutureProtagonist]

This is not possible...

Scorpio price attended : 399-499$

Price for a GTX 1070 : 400-450$ ...

And its 6TFlops from AMD , Nvidia TFlops are more powerful than AMD TFlops.

That's not actually true. Peak FLOPS are only one measure of GPU performance, but a FLOPS is a FLOPS. Other aspects of NV's design allows to perhaps use their shader throughput more efficiently, or perhaps they have advantages in specific workloads, etc.

 

[AmyS]

Eurogamer had a pretty firm guess that Scorpio will be using a down clocked and somewhat cut down version of Vega, and not Polaris 10 / RX 480.

based on the differential in spec between Neo and Scorpio, it's unlikely that the new Microsoft console uses Polaris at all. A 40 CU part would need a mighty overclock to hit 6TF, and based on the rendered imagery we've seen, the heating assembly planned for Scorpio looks a little lacklustre. With that in mind, our money is on a downclocked version of AMD's upcoming Vega technology.

Thanks to an AMD engineer rather unwisely posting a partial spec for Vega on his LinkedIn profile (!) we know that the fully enabled processor features 64 compute units. Assuming that this is cut down to 56 CUs (as in the Radeon R9 Fury, a pared back version of the 64 CU Fury X), a clock speed in the 830-850MHz region looks likely. Alternatively, and perhaps more likely, we could be seeing 60 CUs at 800MHz. Both represent a substantial increase over PlayStation 4K Neo, while the raw increase to performance over PS4 and Xbox One is obviously much larger.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-xbox-one-project-scorpio-spec-analysis

 

[Finaika]

The GTX 1070 will be obsolete when the Scorpio comes out.

 

[Asmodai48]

Is nvidia flops =amd flops a meme now?

 

[ZOONAMI]

The 1070 will be obsolete when the Scorpio comes out.

Haha, ok. The 1170 won't even be out and Vega isn't going to make it obsolete either.

 

[Steel]

The GTX 1070 will be obsolete when the Scorpio comes out.

It won't be, but this also won't be as powerful as a 1070. 6 TFlops for AMD does not mean anywhere close to the same performance as 6 TFlops Nvidia.

 

[Boombox On]

Isnt the ps4 pro already 480? That wouldnt make sense to wait and be the same power.

A lot of people think that but the PS4 Pro GPU(s) ain't that, or really even related.

 

[onQ123]

I think pretty soon we will be moving away from FLOPS as a talking point for console power like we moved away from bit.

MS made a good attempt to move away from it when the Xbox One came out by talking about transistor count. I wonder what's to come & how long it will take for it to get abused.

 

[Last_colossi]

It won't be, but this also won't be as powerful as a 1070. 6 TFlops for AMD does not mean anywhere close to the same performance as 6 TFlops Nvidia.

Yep the 1070 is a 6.5 TFLOP card and yet it performs better in most benchmarks than the R9 Fury X which is a 8.6 TFLOP card, AMD and Nvidia TFLOPS are not the same, so the Scorpio will most likely not be as powerful as the GTX 1070 if it has 6TFLOPS of AMD performance, it'll be closer to the GTX 1060.

 

[JBwB]

I doubt it's as powerful as a 1070 but it's certainly going to be at least as powerful as a 1060.

 

[ZOONAMI]

Yep the 1070 is a 6.5 TFLOP card and yet it performs better in most benchmarks than the R9 Fury X which is a 8.6 TFLOP card, AMD and Nvidia TFLOPS are not the same, so the Scorpio will most likely not be as powerful as the GTX 1070 if it has 6TFLOPS of AMD performance, it'll be closer to the GTX 1060.

To be fair the 5.5 tflop RX 480 is as good or better than a 1060, so we're probably looking at near a 1070 for Scorpio.

 

[K.Jack]

Console gamers seriously need to move away from FLOPS.

 

[onQ123]

Yep the 1070 is a 6.5 TFLOP card and yet it performs better in most benchmarks than the R9 Fury X which is a 8.6 TFLOP card, AMD and Nvidia TFLOPS are not the same, so the Scorpio will most likely not be as powerful as the GTX 1070 if it has 6TFLOPS of AMD performance, it'll be closer to the GTX 1060.

That's because Nvidia was using a form of tile based rendering for better performance & now AMD will also be using a form of tile based rendering.

 

[PdotMichael]

I think pretty soon we will be moving away from FLOPS as a talking point for console power like we moved away from bit.

MS made a good attempt to move away from it when the Xbox One came out by talking about transistor count. I wonder what's to come & how long it will take for it to get abused.

Xbox One

 

[Last_colossi]

To be fair the 5.5 tflop RX 480 is as good or better than a 1060, so we're probably looking at near a 1070 for Scorpio.

YouTube The GTX 1060 is a 4.4 TFLOP card so the Scorpio will most likely perform more like a GTX 1060ti if it existed, which is still insane if they can sell it for $399.

That's because Nvidia was using a form of tile based rendering for better performance & now AMD will also be using a form of tile based rendering.

Interesting... Those Vega benchmarks are going to be juicy then.

 

[onQ123]

Xbox One

Yeah when Xbox One was being released MS never mentioned the GPU flops but they talked about the 5 Billion transistors

YouTube The GTX 1060 is a 4.4 TFLOP card so the Scorpio will most likely perform more like a GTX 1060ti if it existed, which is still insane if they can sell it for $399.



Interesting... Those Vega benchmarks are going to be juicy then.

Flops are the same thing for Nvidia & AMD the performance difference come from what they are able to archive with the number of flops they have. 2 GPUs can have the same TFLOPS but if one has better hardware to use those operations more efficiently than the other it's going to out perform it especially if one of the GPUs have a better way of getting around a bottleneck that's holding the other GPU back.

 

[MetalliCabombination]

Not a chance,
expect a next gen version of ps4 pro's card thats all similarly downclocked and everything.
amd 6tf means nothing at all and is absolutely not comparable to nvidia's/

 

[Piggus]

Consider the form factor the big 2 will want and consider these should be SoC. Not a chance in hell. When we theorize with this kind of topic, we need to look at price point when throwing a ballpark.

8-12 max. 12 is pushing it, so I will assume 10. Anything above that is a pleasant surprise.
My oven is always ready for crow, if I am wrong.

Keep that oven pre-heated then. There's nothing to suggest either company will be using an SOC when Sony has proven that an APU with a single separate memory pool is extremely efficient and effective. They're not building mobile devices.

If they come out in 2020 with 8-12 TF AMD GPUs, that's the equivalent of a five-year-old GTX 1070 or 1080. That is an incredibly low bar you're setting considering Nvidia will probably have 25-30 TF GPUs out by then.

If we look back to 2010 there was the ATI Radeon HD 5830 at 1.8 TFLOPS. This was a 175W TDP GPU that was priced at ~$230. 3, almost 4, years later the PS4. The closest price bracket GPU today is the RX 480 at 5.8 TFLOPS 150W TDP at ~$240. The generation before in 2008 there was the 4850x2 at 2 TFLOPS with a 250W TDP. 5 years until getting that FLOPS performance in a console. Today's top GPU is the Titan X Pascal at 10 TFLOPS and Vega is rumored to be perform at around 12TFLOPS. The Titan X is a 250W TDP card and the top Vega card will certainly be a 250W TDP card. 16-20 TFLOPS is unreasonable considering how slow process technology progresses now.

Would you consider the jump from the GTX 980 to the 1080 "slow progress"? We're nowhere near diminishing returns.

High end GPU pricing has gotten astronomically more expensive since 2006. Also, 512gb ram was pretty acceptable in 2006, 8GB was generous in 2013, but going by the current trendline, we are not looking at needing more than 32GB of ram in 2-3 years. And even 32GB I could only see if it was a 16GB VRAM and 16GB System Ram set up.

The current trend of GPUs I guess we might see 20 Tflop high end gpus within 2-3 years, but that isn't what's going into the PS5. I also wouldn't be surprised if PS5 showed up in the fall of 2019.

I think we will see 16-32GB total ram (and I would be pretty surprised if 32GB happens), and a 10-15 tflop GPU.

We'll be seeing an Nvidia equivalent of a 20 TF AMD card within a year and a half. Mark it down.

 

[Proelite]

If PS5 uses a refined third iteration TMSC 7nm node, like Scorpio is doing for 16nm, they can have slightly more than double the density and a higher clocks speed compared to the pro. They probably can do something like 3x over the PS4 pro in 2020. 12 - 13 teraflops. If they're willing to go 200 - 225 watts like the launch PS3s, they can push it to 16-18 teraflops.

I'm expecting PS5 to be,
8 core 16 threaded 4th gen Zen or 1st gen Zen successor.
32GB cheap HBM, or 16GB HBM3 + 16GB DDR4.
12-13 teraflop GPU.

 

[Electret]

Yeah when Xbox One was being released MS never mentioned the GPU flops but they talked about the 5 Billion transistors

Dat ESRAM!

 

[ZOONAMI]

Keep that oven pre-heated then. There's nothing to suggest either company will be using an SOC when Sony has proven that an APU with a single separate memory pool is extremely efficient and effective. They're not building mobile devices.

If they come out in 2020 with 8-12 TF AMD GPUs, that's the equivalent of a five-year-old GTX 1070 or 1080. That is an incredibly low bar you're setting considering Nvidia will probably have 25-30 TF GPUs out by then.



Would you consider the jump from the GTX 980 to the 1080 "slow progress"? We're nowhere near diminishing returns.



We'll be seeing an Nvidia equivalent of a 20 TF AMD card within a year and a half. Mark it down.

Even if we do, that high end of a card won't be in a ps5 in 2-3 years. I think we're only about 2.5 years away from PS5, and if they follow the pattern of PS4 to keeps costs down the gpu will be a midrange card from the previous generation equivalent. So something like an RX 570 or maaaybe RX 670. Either way you're looking at 10-15 amd tflops for PS5. Anything more and you end up with a $599 PS5 which isn't happening.

 

[nomis]

The GTX 1070 will be obsolete when the Scorpio comes out.

I don't just guffaw at this comment as a salty 1070 owner, but as someone possessing common sense

 

[valeo]

The GTX 1070 will be obsolete when the Scorpio comes out.

I don't think you understand what 'obsolete' means..

 

[KingGreasy]

Keep that oven pre-heated then. There's nothing to suggest either company will be using an SOC when Sony has proven that an APU with a single separate memory pool is extremely efficient and effective. They're not building mobile devices.

If they come out in 2020 with 8-12 TF AMD GPUs, that's the equivalent of a five-year-old GTX 1070 or 1080. That is an incredibly low bar you're setting considering Nvidia will probably have 25-30 TF GPUs out by then.



Would you consider the jump from the GTX 980 to the 1080 "slow progress"? We're nowhere near diminishing returns.



We'll be seeing an Nvidia equivalent of a 20 TF AMD card within a year and a half. Mark it down.

The "slow progress" was in reference to the the process those GPU's were manufactured on. The GTX 980 was a 28nm GPU. The first desktop GPU's at 28nm came out in 2012 with the first 14/16nm desktop GPU's coming out in 2016 but even then Intel's 14nm was better than TSMC, Samsung, and Global Foundries competing 14/16nm. 4 years for a die shrink in high end GPUs. High end mobile SoC's this year are coming in at 10nm while the both Nvidia and AMD are rumoured to skip 10nm for 7nm in 2018/2019.

PS3 came out on a 90nm process and after that we saw process nodes go 90nm -> 80nm -> 65nm -> 55nm -> 45nm -> 40nm -> 32nm -> 28nm. Intel has multiple times had to shift their roadmaps because of the slow push from 14nm to 10nm. When die shrinks were more common upgrading GPU's was more exciting

edit:

"If they come out in 2020 with 8-12 TF AMD GPUs, that's the equivalent of a five-year-old GTX 1070 or 1080. That is an incredibly low bar you're setting considering Nvidia will probably have 25-30 TF GPUs out by then."

I mentioned a high end 250W TDP GPU from 2008 that was 2TF and 5 years later in 2013 the PS4 is released with a 1.84 TF GPU.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Let's gooooo!

http://wccftech.com/watch-amds-vega-ryzen-capsaicin-cream-livestream/

 

[miller.skippins]

All these FLOPS talk reminds me of Atari's DO THE MATH talk with the Jaguar......

 

[Hermii]

I'm sure it will be powerful enough, I'm more curious to see how much devs utilize it when they know it will only serve a small subset of the audience. The PS3 was rarely utilized to its full potential, outside of first party games.

I dunno, I need to be sold on it. My Xbone literally collects dust as is, it only turns on to watch a 4K bluray.

Well the ps3 was notoriously a nightmare to optimize for, while Scorpio is similar to PS4 / PS4 pro / Xbox one.

 

[icecold1983]

More like RX 480.

Umm not likely. It will almost certainly be much closer to a 1070 than a 480

If we go off what we currently know then AMD 6 tflops would be around 390x/RX 480 or GTX 980 perf.

Fury X is 8.5 tflops and gets smashed by a GTX 1070. If AMD have got themselves in line with NVidia with perf per watt and are rating the same then sure but until we see it, nope.

No it doesnt

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1060_Armor/30.html

 

[SirPinkyNose]

A 600$ machine comparable to a 1070 system would result in extremely high price/performance ratio.
A proper 1070 build would cost around 1000$ no less.

 

[Larogue]

That's like last gen Titan X in an console, which is mind blowing.

 

[Piggus]

The "slow progress" was in reference to the the process those GPU's were manufactured on. The GTX 980 was a 28nm GPU. The first desktop GPU's at 28nm came out in 2012 with the first 14/16nm desktop GPU's coming out in 2016 but even then Intel's 14nm was better than TSMC, Samsung, and Global Foundries competing 14/16nm. 4 years for a die shrink in high end GPUs. High end mobile SoC's this year are coming in at 10nm while the both Nvidia and AMD are rumoured to skip 10nm for 7nm in 2018/2019.

PS3 came out on a 90nm process and after that we saw process nodes go 90nm -> 80nm -> 65nm -> 55nm -> 45nm -> 40nm -> 32nm -> 28nm. Intel has multiple times had to shift their roadmaps because of the slow push from 14nm to 10nm. When die shrinks were more common upgrading GPU's was more exciting

edit:

"If they come out in 2020 with 8-12 TF AMD GPUs, that's the equivalent of a five-year-old GTX 1070 or 1080. That is an incredibly low bar you're setting considering Nvidia will probably have 25-30 TF GPUs out by then."

I mentioned a high end 250W TDP GPU from 2008 that was 2TF and 5 years later in 2013 the PS4 is released with a 1.84 TF GPU.

You mentioned the Radeon 5830. While it's rated at close to 2 TF, real-world performance shows that it's significantly slower than the PS4's closest PC equivalent (7850). I'm not sure if that's the best example.

 

[MilkyJoe]

The GTX 1070 will be obsolete when the Scorpio comes out.

Thanks for the input

Spoiler

 

[SirPinkyNose]

Umm not likely. It will almost certainly be much closer to a 1070 than a 480



No it doesnt

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1060_Armor/30.html

It does get smashed by 1070 in your graphs. Not sure why you brought up graphs centered around 1060 tho.

Anyway if AMD could bring performance better than rx 480 (which is their most powerful card currently btw) into a 600$ package, wouldn't it be wise for them to release a PC card countrrpart which could bring similar computing power in a low price and just destroy Nvidia?

 

[Asmodai48]

Umm not likely. It will almost certainly be much closer to a 1070 than a 480



No it doesnt

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_1060_Armor/30.html

Lol you just linked 1070 smashing it.

 

[Caayn]

It does get smashed by 1070 in your graphs. Not sure why you brought up graphs centered around 1060 tho.

Anyway if AMD could bring performance better than rx 480 (which is their most powerful card currently btw) into a 600$ package, wouldn't it be wise for them to release a PC card countrrpart which could bring similar computing power in a low price and just destroy Nvidia?

Of course. We just have to see what Vega actually brings to the table and what price that'll get when AMD releases it'. We'll probably hear more about that this week.

Keep in mind that Microsoft (and Sony and Nintendo) doesn't buy whole graphic cards like we find them on store shelves, they just buy the GPU which costs less.

 

[Jaguar Victory]

It does get smashed by 1070 in your graphs. Not sure why you brought up graphs centered around 1060 tho.

Anyway if AMD could bring performance better than rx 480 (which is their most powerful card currently btw) into a 600$ package, wouldn't it be wise for them to release a PC card countrrpart which could bring similar computing power in a low price and just destroy Nvidia?

You literally just quoted a graph contrary to this. Fury X is more powerful than a 480. Neither here nor there though, as we'll get some Vega news tomorrow.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

Of course. We just have to see what Vega actually brings to the table and what price that'll get when AMD releases it'. We'll probably hear more about that this week.

Keep in mind that Microsoft (and Sony and Nintendo) doesn't buy whole graphic cards like we find them on store shelves, they just buy the GPU which costs less.

Most prebuilt PC builders who are partnered with AMD, Nvidia and Intel do the same too. Prebuilt PC are actually cheaper to buy than equal self-built PC, but the gap is often just to be 5-10%.
So Vega needs to be a massive game changer for AMD to be able to provide the GPU as strong as the 1070 and cost less to produce than the 1060/rx480. In other word they need to pull another Ryzen but much better.

You literally just quoted a graph contrary to this. Fury X is more powerful than a 480. Neither here nor there though, as we'll get some Vega news tomorrow.

Oh sorry I was thinking about this gen. Fury X is indeed their strongest card.

 

[Caayn]

Most prebuilt PC builders who are partnered with AMD, Nvidia and Intel do the same too. Prebuilt PC are actually cheaper to buy than equal self-built PC, but the gap is often just to be 5-10%.
So Vega needs to be a massive game changer for AMD to be able to provide the GPU as strong as the 1070 and cost less to produce than the 1060/rx480. In other word they need to pull another Ryzen but much better.

Fair point about PC builders.

I disagree with the Ryzen comparison, AMD can generally keep up better on the GPU front. It's only the Halo (Titan xx80) products that they can't compete with. GTX 1070 is close to an year old as well at this point.

 

[tapedeck]

Count on 8 to 10 tflops GPU wise from AMD(my guess is around 10.X) . Remember this thing will have to fit into a semicustom APU for 399 atleast and will also house Zen architecture and likely HBM 16GB...that should be enough at 10 or 7nm.

The GPU jump will be good compared to PS4, but its the CPU and bandwidth upgrades which are the real stars.

You can also expect sub 4K games on PS5 as well along with 30fps, devs will want that power as much as they can to push.

Not sure if serious.

You realize an '8-10TF' GPU on a Sony/MS console in 2020 would be hilariously underpowered right?

By 2020 native 4K will no doubt be considered the standard resolution for videogames. Every single TV sold in 2020+ will be 4K..1080p will be the disappointing res developers must settle for, certainly not the goal.

Based on what we're seeing now, to achieve a significant generational jump in graphical fidelity at native 4K..12-14TF would have to be the starting point, especially if it's a console expected to be viable for 6+ years.

 

[icecold1983]

It does get smashed by 1070 in your graphs. Not sure why you brought up graphs centered around 1060 tho.

Anyway if AMD could bring performance better than rx 480 (which is their most powerful card currently btw) into a 600$ package, wouldn't it be wise for them to release a PC card countrrpart which could bring similar computing power in a low price and just destroy Nvidia?

Lol you just linked 1070 smashing it.

<10% slower is getting smashed? Guess the 980ti gets smashed by the fury x

A 480x is amds fastest pc gpu? Man like 95% of the posts in this thread are absolute nonsense

 

[Asmodai48]

<10% slower is getting smashed? Guess the 980ti gets smashed by the fury x

A 480x is amds fastest pc gpu? Man like 95% of the posts in this thread are absolute nonsense

Considering the fury x is 2 tflops higher than a 1070 and still loses. Yea it gets smashed.

 

[nkarafo]

Will the scorpio have a better CPU than One as well?

 

[MilkyJoe]

Will the scorpio have a better CPU than One as well?

That's the million dollar question. Probably.

 

[Fess]

That's the million dollar question. Probably.

Is it 6TF in total computation power? GPU+CPU? In that case, wouldn't a beefier CPU mean that the GPU isn't quite as powerful as people are guessing here?

 

[hanspampel]

Is it 6TF in total computation power? GPU+CPU? In that case, wouldn't a beefier CPU mean that the GPU isn't quite as powerful as people are guessing here?

6TF is gpu only
And cpu flop performance is low anyway.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Is it 6TF in total computation power? GPU+CPU? In that case, wouldn't a beefier CPU mean that the GPU isn't quite as powerful as people are guessing here?

No, that's just the GPU

 

[icecold1983]

Considering the fury x is 2 tflops higher than a 1070 and still loses. Yea it gets smashed.

yeah that matters a lot more than the fact that its older, 2 node jumps larger and is using a gcn revision thats now 3 iterations off the current

 

[Locuza]

It's one generation behind or two in the near future.
Fiji is using GCN Gen 3, Polaris is Gen 4 and Vega will be 5.

 

[icecold1983]

It's one generation behind or two in the near future.
Fiji is using GCN Gen 3, Polaris is Gen 4 and Vega will be 5.

vega = 1
polaris = 2
furyx = 3

thats how i was looking at it. you could say 2

 

[nkarafo]

6TF is gpu only
And cpu flop performance is low anyway.

I mean, if a PC had a CPU as slow as the XBOXone and you paired that with a GPU as fast as the Scorpio is supposed to have (1070?), everyone would know it's going to be a huge bottleneck.