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[Docflem]

Most of his twitter timeline is ""jokes"" against white people.

Seems kind of odd, and I think it's reasonable to question it.

So it's ok to joke about white people on the basis of their race but it's not ok to joke about black people on the basis of their race?
Isn't this the very definition of hypocrisy?
This line of thought is incredibly harmful if you want to achieve equality. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Manveer Heir IS a racist prick who is doing more harm than good in representing people of color.

He's not a standup comic making jokes. If you look at his twitter feed, it won't take long to see some 'Fuck white people' shit. If you don't consider him racist, that's fine but don't someone else their opinion is wrong because of some alt-right mind control tactic or whatever

I've seen nothing but hateful comments from him. To me, those kind of comments are utterly disgusting regardless of what skin color the person making them is. Maybe I'm weird, but to me, racism is racism and it saddens me to see it being so pronounced in 2017. It feels like we're regressing as a species, but I don't mean to derail the thread.

Doesn't BioWare employ an openly racist prick? Or am I thinking of another development studio?

But yeah, the lack of options is pretty disappointing to see.



Edit: Ahh yes they do. Manveer Heir.

Do we really need to have a conversation about the differences in punching down vs up? No a black man (edit: POC in this case) making jokes about white people (aka the systemic racism he faces every day) is not racist. Speaking out in the way this particular person does is a tad shocking at times but the truth is the response to his tweets says more about white fragility than it does anything else. Is it possible for a black person (or any minority) to be racist against white people? Maybe, although my definition of racism has a lot to do with structural power dynamics and privilege so I doubt it. At the very least it would be hard for a black person to actually execute on their bigoted beliefs in the U.S. today even if they wanted to.

Oh and to be clear, I am a white straight male, so any perceived "benefit" POC or other minorities would receive from this stance wouldn't be granted to me, though I wouldn't call the burden of fighting against 200+ years of injustice a "privilege".

 

[PSqueak]

Frankly, im baffled that they seem to not focus test or ask thru a simple poll what kind of hairstyles people wanna see.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Just went through a good portion of Manveer Heir's twitter, none of it is racist. Some really egregious character assassination on the part of some posters here.

 

[Shredderi]

Yeah this is a real bummer. I don't know why exactly, but my litmus test for character creation systems is always how well I can create a black female character. It's always the fucking hair that shits the bed for me. In general I wish devs would just hire some hairstyle modellers for the duration of the dev time and have like 100 hairstyles to choose from.

 

[hodgy100]

Is the implication here that entire AAA studios are white, orr

(I mean I guess disclaimer I'm white and the character customization normally never matches what I look like for hair and I don't even style mine)

AAA game studios are like 80% white at best. its entirely possible that some game studios are entirely white. and even then just because there are a few minorities does not mean they have any weight in what actually gets made. I'm a programmer and get very little (if any) input on character design and writing. because we have artists and writers for that. so you would have to be a minority in a few very specific positions at a game developer studio to actually get any substantial input into these things.

disclaimer: White game developer (its probably closer to 90% here)

 

[Lime]

Is this what happens when you set the slider all the way to "Just fuck my shit up"?

eerily similar

There is no such hair like that in MEA customization.

I don't think you understood the article properly then. Please try to read it again.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Just went through a good portion of Manveer Heir's twitter, none of it is racist. Some really egregious character assassination on the part of some posters here.

Yeah I just went through it as well. This is what people are complaining about. All I really got from it was dude is on twitter way more than I could ever physically handle.

 

[n051de]

Rendering hair is really hard in general, regardless of how different hair types move and react to light. But @ OP - I though the Character Del in Gears 4 looked great. The hair looks utterly fantastic.

It does look pretty good. Hope more game devs adopt the technique used.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

Do we really need to have a conversation about the differences in punching down vs up? No a black man making jokes about white people (aka the systemic racism he faces every day) is not racist. Speaking out in the way this particular person does is a tad shocking at times but the truth is the response to his tweets says more about white fragility than it does anything else. Is it possible for a black person (or any minority) to be racist against white people? Maybe, although my definition of racism has a lot to do with structural power dynamics and privilege so I doubt it. At the very least it would be hard for a black person to actually execute on their bigoted beliefs in the U.S. today even if they wanted to.

Oh and to be clear, I am a white straight male, so any perceived "benefit" POC or other minorities would receive from this stance wouldn't be granted to me, though I wouldn't call the burden of fighting against 200+ years of injustice a "privilege".

1. Manveer Heir is not black. Stop assuming him as a black person.
2. You don't fight racism with racism. It's a racist thing to do.

 

[woopWOOP]

I'd like that puffy hair option for my white characters too tbh, looks rad

 

[Deepwater]

1. Manveer Heir is not black. Stop assuming him as a black person.
2. You don't fight racism with racism. It's a racist thing to do.

can't talk about racism without talking about whiteness as a whole, and no, it doesn't go both ways.

 

[Lime]

Please don't derail this important thread to invoke a discussion started and propagated by organized gamer bigots to target and smear an outspoken minority game developer who's doing great work, both as a designer and an activist.

 

[Con_Smith]

So after I saw the mass effect character customization and we are still in 2017. You can see the video below:
https://youtu.be/O6Io-nMUMt8

It's just plain ignorant that hair representation is not equally distributed among people of color like whites in games. I mean they have 20 different types of hair for white, Asian, Hispanic, and etc but when it comes to black ladies hair textures and styles, their are only the dreaded cornrows or Bernie mac style afros. I mean do these developers not see what's in style with other cultures or is everyone just in there own bubble.

Right now everyone is up for more women roles and equality but that still only represents white women. Even with that it's still just white people are the among the prominent main characters with the most choices and customizations. I mean I wanted some strong black female customizations in games too. I mean look at theses examples.

Zazie beetz actress in Atlanta show:

Or the new Iron Woman

I mean how cool would it be to rock that puffy hairstyle for a protag.

And I as a black male would like a character to look like me

I mean it's 2017 and we still have to bring topics like these up, I know some developers don't want to make Game Center around a black main protag or set in Africa, because let's be honest, salewise wont be too good, because the general public would come with some excuse that they can't relate to the characters......yea like I had to relate to Luke Skywalker, or Indiana Jones as my heroes growing up. So I would at least want them to provide the tools to fully customize my character to look like me in my story play through when given the options. Is that hard to ask ?

I know you OP and I agree. How's life since CGS?

 

[Shredderi]

Maybe take the racism etc. talk to another thread lest a mod shut this one down?

 

[family_guy]

He's not a standup comic making jokes. If you look at his twitter feed, it won't take long to see some 'Fuck white people' shit. If you don't consider him racist, that's fine but don't tell someone else their opinion is wrong because of some alt-right mind control tactic or whatever

I interpret the tweets more as, "White people. Please stop with the BS."

 

[Kimaka]

Is it that hard for some of the art designers to take a trip to a barber shop?

Or take five seconds to type 'natural hairstyles 2017' into Google.

 

[Docflem]

1. Manveer Heir is not black. Stop assuming him as a black person.
2. You don't fight racism with racism. It's a racist thing to do.

1. I actually tried to find a statement from him on his ethnicity and I couldn't find one, but thank you for the update. My post is edited.
2. Again racism is more complected than that. Unless you are a minority yourself, it's not your place to tell someone how that person should "fight racism" or protest. In fact speaking out is not only a right guaranteed to people in the United States it is a historically proven method of protest. As I said, the things he has tweeted at times can be "disturbing" to white people but the reality of the world we live in IS disturbing, it's why comedians like Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle have been so successful. Turning a mirror back onto society can be unpleasant, but it is not wrong.

Maybe take the racism etc. talk to another thread lest a mod shut this one down?

I'm not sure this conversation can really happen with out the "racism talk," but if a mod thinks I am out of line I will move along.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

can't talk about racism without talking about whiteness as a whole, and no, it doesn't go both ways.

Saying it's doesn't go both way is like saying people can call a black person nigger because they think it's a friendly way to do so. In your perception it might be ok, but in reality is it's not. It makes you a hypocrite.
And while you can talk about racism while bringing races into question since it's what the topic is all about, being racist against your opposition is definitely not the right way to do it.

 

[Laieon]

I think hair options in general are pretty bad. As a white man, I rarely find an option that I think looks like mine. I agree with you that it's probably even worse for minorities though.

 

[SirPinkyNose]

1. I actually tried to find a statement from him on his ethnicity and I couldn't find one, but thank you for the update. My post is edited.
2. Again Racism is more complected than that. Unless you are a minority yourself its not your place to tell someone how that person should "fight racism." In fact speaking out is not only a right guaranteed to people in the United States it is a historically proven method of protest. As I said, the things he has tweeted at times can be "disturbing" to white people but the reality of the world we live in IS disturbing, it's why comedians like Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle have been so successful. Turning a mirror back onto society can be unpleasant, but it is not wrong.

Define minority. There is a chance that I'm one even though technically I'm not.

 

[Venfayth]

It doesn't help anyone to be so vague and broad when talking about racism. Talking about racism as a systemic societal problem is different than talking about racism as subconscious biases is different than talking about racism as intentional and overt actions to attack a person based on their race.

 

[Frozenprince]

You get dreads or you get horrible ass cornrows or you get nothing

Seriously how hard can it be to model and texture a clean lineup or a fade?

That's not even getting into hair like mine:

 

[Docflem]

Define minority. There is a chance that I'm one even though technically I'm not.

That's up to you really, I don't define your gender, sex, orientation, or racial/ethinic background. I don't even know where you live. I can give you the dictionary definition, but I think you already know who you are and how you feel you fit into the situation so where would that get us? Instead how about you engage a little more deeply into the discussion than asking me for definitions for terms you have an answer for already?

 

[Zakalwe]

Bottom line: we're never going to win in the fight against racism by creating more divides. i get the exhaustion and why the "educate racists" line is so hard to take for some, but the /only/ way that aggression will ever be an effective answer is if a revolution happens and we pick up weapons.

Yes you can't talk about racism without talking about whiteness, but you can make your point without them being barbed. And this isn't about protecting people's feelings, fuck that, this is about the simple fact that shit like this puts people on the defensive and that can become impenetrable.

That's reality, we need to face it.

 

[Enzom21]

It's interesting how a thread about the lack of options for black hair has turned into a discussion about racism against white people.

Interesting thread derail tactic.

 

[Frozenprince]

It's interesting how a thread about the lack of options for black hair has turned into a discussion about racism against white people.

Interesting thread derail tactic.

I'm detecting a pattern here

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Bottom line: we're never going to win in the fight against racism by creating more divides. i get the exhaustion and why the "educate racists" line is so hard to take for some, but the /only/ way that aggression will ever be an effective answer is if a revolution happens and we pick up weapons.

Yes you can't talk about racism without talking about whiteness, but you can make your point without them being barbed. And this isn't about protecting people's feelings, fuck that, this is about the simple fact that shit like this puts people on the defensive and that can become impenetrable.

That's reality, we need to face it.

I'm fine with this, but why are we talking about some dudes fucking twitter like it's relevant to hair in character creators?

You get dreads or you get horrible ass cornrows or you get nothing

Seriously how hard can it be to model and texture a clean lineup or a fade?

I always wonder why we don't see more fade. You dont even have to animate a fade. It's the easiest hair style besides bald.

 

[MKIL65]

It's interesting how a thread about the lack of options for black hair has turned into a discussion about racism against white people.

Interesting thread derail tactic.

Yeah, I'm rolling my eyes so hard at some of these posts...

 

[Shredderi]

I'm not sure this conversation can really happen with out the "racism talk," but if a mod thinks I am out of line I will move along.

Of course, but the talk about Manveer Heir and reverse racism etc. will propably help derail the thread.

 

[Blunoise]

I know you OP and I agree. How's life since CGS?

Lol who is this PM, life been better since this hell hole

Edit: yes guys let's not derail this thread with other topics. I want a healthy debate on this subject. I enjoy the discussion

 

[Lime]

if those people are actually playable in the game I applaud them.

Unfortunately not, which is why I hope for a Left Behind / Lost Legacy / First Light type of situation with Horizon.

It's still really good though and it's pretty common to see throughout the game.

 

[shark sandwich]

Totally agree, mainly because my preferred character type is pasty white ginger w/ African hair.

 

[Wadiwasi]

Is this what happens when you set the slider all the way to "Just fuck my shit up"?

HAHAHA

I'm picturing somebody with a tablet that has this photo on it - in a barbershop going, "This is what I want..." and then the barber kicks him out of his shop.

 

[neurosyphilis]

It's simply easier as "white" hairstyles are similar to other styles such as Asian and Latin styles.

I love how you act like Afro-Latinos and Afro-Asians don't exist. Stop with these lame ass excuses.

 

[MistakenMobius]

You get dreads or you get horrible ass cornrows or you get nothing

Seriously how hard can it be to model and texture a clean lineup or a fade?

That's not even getting into hair like mine:

Well that's a pretty "white" haircut.

 

[PedroLumpy]

The answer to this question seems painfully obvious.

 

[John Kowalski]

Wouldn't be surprised to find out that the limited variety is that way because of hierarchical resistance to proper representation. One thing is at least clear, someone is not telling its team to create more content of this kind. Does that person know? Does that person want to know? Does that person care?

Fairly sure they don't.

 

[Vital Tundra]

Being artists these people should know how to create characters of any race with appropriate styles of hair. Like thats what you practice for.

 

[Docflem]

Of course, but the talk about Manveer Heir and reverse racism etc. will propably help derail the thread.

I don't think I disagree, but that's kinda the issue with "reverse racism," the second someone throws it out there almost any reasonable discourse dies without it being dealt with. It why it's used so often.

When talking about a problem like poor representation in video games the truth is this idea that POC need to "make it happen" (as been already suggested as a solution in this thread) is silly. If things really worked that way then there wouldn't be a problem. A previous poster pointed out that game development might be as much as ~80 percent white, so the fast track to progress is pressuring white designers and developers to do better research and put more effort in creating better representation. That better representation would probably go a long way into inspiring future generations of developers to be more inclusive and so on and so forth. Unfortunately, that means some of these people do need to get past their white fragility and that is where the reverse racism comes up and boom this is where we are at now.

Lol who is this PM, life been better since this hell hole

Edit: yes guys let's not derail this thread with other topics. I want a healthy debate on this subject. I enjoy the discussion

Edit: Ok, I hear ya. I'll back up a bit and hopefully we can refocus more on the specifics.

 

[Kintaro]

I agree with the OP.

I also recognize that hair is REALLY FUCKING HARD to do well in video games. Del's is great, but its one set character. NBA 2k? It's very hit and miss but its a game with set lighting conditions. Then when you talk about Create a Character sets...man, it must be hell.

I would like to see better attempts as a more variety of hairstyles for all of the races out there of course, but holy shit does hair seem hard to do in game development.

 

[TalonJH]

You know, I wouldn't mind as much if cornrows wasn't always the goto. It's always one of the 2-3 styles in player creation. I think a lot of the time it just isn't a 1st thought priority for them, unfortunately. I'm sure plenty of developers would work on it if we make it known that we would appreciate the extra work in that department and make sure we support and praise the games that do.

 

[Exploratory]

Yeah I know nothing about that.

But seriously the argument against this is always bullshit. Yeah maybe you can't do great hair like what OP has but can a

Spoiler

whooa

get a goddamn fade? Maybe a taper? A line up? Is that really THAT hard?

 

[Ahasverus]

Hair in videogames is just bad in general. Biggest issue with modern graphics.

 

[Blunoise]

I don't think I disagree, but that's kinda the issue with "reverse racism," the second someone throws it out there almost any reasonable discourse dies without it being dealt with. It why it's used so often.

When talking about a problem like poor representation in video games the truth is this idea that POC need to "make it happen" (as been already suggested as a solution in this thread) is silly. If things really worked that way then there wouldn't be a problem. A previous poster pointed out that game development might be as much as ~80 percent white, so the fast track to progress is pressuring white designers and developers to do better research and put more effort in creating better representation. That better representation would probably go a long way into inspiring future generations of developers to be more inclusive and so on and so forth. Unfortunately, that means some of these people do need to get past their white fragility and that is where the reverse racism comes up and boom this is where we are at now.

To add to this:
When people say that a POC need to start making games to make it happen, or to work for companies like EA to put their opinions out there. People forget that it is hard to do so when so few POC developers exist just because this very reason that they feel not represented enough. Instead it should be the people in those positions now to push this movement, because once you do that more people of color will be interested and invested in putting their ideas out there because they can see that the general public accepts them as equal representation.

Kind off subject but it's the reason why a lot of black people are in the music industry (hip hop), and sports, because to them they see that as a successful career since they can identify with people that looks like them being successful. If the IT world or gaming world show openness to blacks, they will come and you can have a healthy industry with endless possibilities for everyone.

 

[JayBabay]

How many style options are their for hair in Andromeda? Is it like 30 total and only 2 are stylized this way or is it more like 10-15 overall choices?

 

[ShyMel]

Yes, I have played many games where if I try to make a black female character the hair options are lacking. It is definitely a symptom of the lack of racial diversity that many game developers face.

 

[Fantomex]

Is this what happens when you set the slider all the way to "Just fuck my shit up"?

"Let me get a Drake look, but make it grimey".

 

[Bloodporne]

Is this what happens when you set the slider all the way to "Just fuck my shit up"?

Nah, that's the 'ODB circa 1992' pre-set.

 

[Enzom21]

Yeah I know nothing about that.

But seriously the argument against this is always bullshit. Yeah maybe you can't do great hair like what OP has but can a

Spoiler

whooa

get a goddamn fade? Maybe a taper? A line up? Is that really THAT hard?

I don't think it's a matter of hard, they probably just don't care.

These can't possibly be harder to recreate than the hairstyles in the video.

 

[Samara]

My boyfriend tries to make me in his games so I get to see the female natural hairstyles. The best ones were Sunset Boulevard and GTA5.

I always end up with a Grace Jones avatar otherwise. If it's to fit the ''military'' then make the hair curly before it's ho stage. shit.

Spoiler

bioware caught up fast to making them butts big tho