UK set to trigger Brexit on March 29

When should the UK celebrate Independence Day?

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StayDead said:
It's been exactly the same for the past 10 years.

Our government itself has only made things worse for us. The EU government was the only reason we had nice things such as rights as customers to refunds and things like that.

Fuck our government.
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But the blue passports tho.
 
I can't quite figure out why it's not OK for Cameron to call a referendum that was part of a manifesto he was elected as PM on but it's fine for Sturgeon to do so. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
 
suedester said:
I can't quite figure out why it's not OK for Cameron to call a referendum that was part of a manifesto he was elected as PM on but it's fine for Sturgeon to do so. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
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The Scottish government actually wants to hold one and to gain independence. Cameron used it as a ruse and held it at the worst possible time in decades.
 
suedester said:
I can't quite figure out why it's not OK for Cameron to call a referendum that was part of a manifesto he was elected as PM on but it's fine for Sturgeon to do so. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
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It was technically fine that he did but he shouldn't have offered it in the first place. It was purely a political move to grab UKIP voters and the daft twat thought remain would win comfortably.

Meanwhile for Sturgeon it's more, that, with Brexit

daas-vader-return-of-the-vdi-sla-darth-altered-the-deal-star-wars-meme.jpg


And they're like "Yeah we aren't down for this". It was more justified for them to have the referendum in the first place with the political divide Scotland has with the rest of the country.
 
suedester said:
I can't quite figure out why it's not OK for Cameron to call a referendum that was part of a manifesto he was elected as PM on but it's fine for Sturgeon to do so. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
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The criticism Cameron tends to get is two-fold. Firstly he didn't have any clauses whatsoever built into such a serious vote. Either a certain majority % vote being needed, or a majority of the unions voting leave, not just the biggest deciding for everyone else. Either of these clauses, or any others, aren't required, and rarely happen in other votes. The other unions being small compared to England is just part of why a Union like we have is seen as failing by many.

Secondly, the half-hearted, flip-floping and utterly dreadful remain campaigns carried out in the UK, mainly by the Conservatives, and Labour, are more what people are furious about. So many leave lies were allowed to foster. Half the Conservative party was back-stabbing the rest (as was Labour), and then a remain "campaigner" in May, charges in to become PM, and then suddenly becomes Mrs Hard Brexit. All while Corbyn a Euro-sceptic tried to convince everyone he was remain, and then now in the wake of Brexit is like a fucking ghost at offering opposition to May.

Most people are more irate about the second part, not so much the first. It's democracy, the second is our usual MSM lies, propaganda, the UK fear machine and political parties like the Conservatives and Labour being a fucking mess.
 
PJV3 said:
The Scottish government actually wants to hold one and to gain independence. Cameron used it as a ruse and held it at the worst possible time in decades.
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Why was it the worst time in decades? It kind of reads to me like you wanted one and not the other so you're finding excuses to fit your politics.
 
suedester said:
I can't quite figure out why it's not OK for Cameron to call a referendum that was part of a manifesto he was elected as PM on but it's fine for Sturgeon to do so. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
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Principally it was fine for Cameron to hold a referendum, if it had been approached with an ounce of common sense. A super majority should've been required for starters; there is precedent all across the world for the need for an unambiguous mandate in the event of major constitutional change.

Next up, the question itself - in or out. What a laughably simplistic view to the most complex of circumstances. It's exactly why we got the soft/hard Brexit clusterfuck that we did in the aftermath; no one could argue with any authority whatsoever on what we actually voted for, other than to cease to be a member of the EU. Anything outside of that is just subjective opinion.

Then you have the fact that the referendum was held for all of the wrong reasons. It wasn't like you had the public clamouring for a say at all, and it certainly wasn't about the 'will of the people'. It was held purely as a power play to quell the rising voices of the lunatic far right fringes of his party. It was a reckless gamble that backfired spectacularly.

Lastly, he and the cabinet he presided over at the time had absolutely no contingency when he lost the damn thing. Just a swift 'whoops', a resignation and fuckoffbyenow, leaving Darth May to pick up the pieces and craft something extra shitty out of them. Just the most appalling lack of forethought and basic due diligence. You might expect that from a work experience intern, but not the sodding prime minister.

TL;DR - Principally fine to hold a referendum, but held in the worst possible way and for all of the wrong reasons.
 
suedester said:
Why was it the worst time in decades? It kind of reads to me like you wanted one and not the other so you're finding excuses to fit your politics.
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Economic crisis and the policies he enacted to deal with it. He also went on an unrelenting personal tirade against the new leader of the party he needed to help win it.

Cameron is a fucking bellend.
 
Audioboxer said:
The criticism Cameron tends to get is two-fold. Firstly he didn't have any clauses whatsoever built into such a serious vote. Either a certain majority % vote being needed, or a majority of the unions voting leave, not just the biggest deciding for everyone else. Either of these clauses, or any others, aren't required, and rarely happen in other votes. The other unions being small compared to England is just part of why a Union like we have is seen as failing by many.

Secondly, the half-hearted, flip-floping and utterly dreadful remain campaigns carried out in the UK, mainly by the Conservative, and Labour, are more what people are furious about. So many leave lies were allowed to foster. Half the Conservative party was back-stabbing the rest (as was Labour), and then a remain "campaigner" in May, charges in to become PM, and then suddenly becomes Mrs Hard Brexit. All while Corbyn a Euro-sceptic tried to convince everyone he was remain, and then now in the wake of Brexit is like a fucking ghost at offering opposition to May.

Most people are more irate about the second part, not so much the first. It's democracy, the second is our usual MSM lies, propaganda, the UK fear machine and political parties like the Conservatives and Labour being a fucking mess.
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No clauses were built into the Scottish referendum. I don't see any of the prominent SNP supporters on this forum (like you!) taking issue with that. The Remain campaign was a shit show but that isn't solely on Cameron by any means.
 
theaface said:
Principally it was fine for Cameron to hold a referendum, if it had been approached with an ounce of common sense. A super majority should've been required for starters; there is precedent all across the world for the need for an unambiguous mandate in the event of major constitutional change.

Next up, the question itself - in or out. What a laughably simplistic view to the most complex of circumstances. It's exactly why we got the soft/hard Brexit clusterfuck that we did in the aftermath; no one could argue with any authority whatsoever on what we actually voted for, other than to cease to be a member of the EU. Anything outside of that is just subjective opinion.

Then you have the fact that the referendum was held for all of the wrong reasons. It wasn't like you had the public clamouring for a say at all, and it certainly wasn't about the 'will of the people'. It was held purely as a power play to quell the rising voices of the lunatic far right fringes of his party. It was a reckless gamble that backfired spectacularly.

Lastly, he and the cabinet he presided over at the time had absolutely no contingency when he lost the damn thing. Just a swift 'whoops', a resignation and fuckoffbyenow, leaving Darth May to pick up the pieces and craft something extra shitty out of them. Just the most appalling lack of forethought and basic due diligence. You might expect that from a work experience intern, but not the sodding prime minister.

TL;DR - Principally fine to hold a referendum, but held in the worst possible way and for all of the wrong reasons.
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Better said than I. A lot of the mess being around the technicalities of the vote, the optics, the language and what followed in the campaigning. Not so much that a vote itself was unlawful.

suedester said:
No clauses were built into the Scottish referendum. I don't see any of the prominent SNP supporters on this forum (like you!) taking issue with that. The Remain campaign was a shit show but that isn't solely on Cameron by any means.
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Quite apparent from that paragraph I don't really care much about a clause(s), so I'm not taking issue with that. I'm explaining what general thoughts were.

Most people are more irate about the second part, not so much the first. It's democracy,
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Wow what a unified UK. SNP are pissed off she basically did all herself and her response is that "We did this as the UK" despite the fact that Scotland and Northern Ireland both voted to stay. This feels like a chapter in the American civil war books that begin with "A Nation divided" before the war begins.
 
SlipperyFishes said:
It reads to me like you're just in this thread punching for a fight.
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No, I'm just trying to bring balance to a thread and point out what I see as hypocrisies. People bitching about Cameron holding a referendum whilst fervently supporting the SNP and Sturgeons right to hold as many as she likes until she gets the result she wants is definitely one of them.
 
I voted for March 29th. Seems like it'd be kind of cool to have British Independence on my birthday.



Oh wait, we're going to have to deal with a lot of <triggered> memes and jokes the next few days aren't we...
 
suedester said:
Why was it the worst time in decades? It kind of reads to me like you wanted one and not the other so you're finding excuses to fit your politics.
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Cus he wanted to remain. Everyone with an ability to see past their own nose knew remaining was the smarter choice, it just became a political tool. And using it as a political tool at that time was poor. You had Tories stabbing in the back picking sides, Labour, who you'd expect to be fighting hard, in disarray over the issue, and finally bullshit tabloids and sleazy politicians spreading misinformation that was eaten up by a population hurting from the economic downturn. The sociopolitical sphere wasn't in the right place to have an even debate about this.

Well apparently it's done now. I'm hoping we get some tangible benefits from this shit show but I have no confidence in anyone in the current government.
 
Damn, it makes me so sad to see the UK go. What a huge blow for all of Europe. I guess so long after the big wars people have become too secure and bored of unity and peace.
 
suedester said:
I can't quite figure out why it's not OK for Cameron to call a referendum that was part of a manifesto he was elected as PM on but it's fine for Sturgeon to do so. Can someone explain this to me. Thanks in advance.
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He was stupid to even put it in the manifesto. Membership of the EU is something that is way too complicated for the public to understand. Especially with the general standard of the British media. His party was split on the issue, and he just tried to use it for personal gain.

Whereas the SNP have made Scottish Independence a central goal, people voting for them know that its the objective of the SNP to get Scotland out of the UK

They are ultimately both political gambling, only Camerons is to solve stupid internal party politics, whereas Sturgeons is trying to get the country onside to one of her central political goals.
 
You better hope this works out tess or you will be slapped with the brexit stick for the rest of your life. Cameron got away with it.
 
DarthMasta said:
Greece knows it's even more fucked without the EU. The UK thinks it'll do around as well or better without it (at least a sufficiently high % of people do).

Nothing with being pragmatic, if Greece thought it could leave and do better, it would. Same as any other country.
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Let's not compare apples and oranges though, Greece had a referendum on accepting or rejecting the terms of an EU loan agreement. The vast majority did not even want to leave the euro, let alone the EU.
 
TeamLeftMatch said:
If you think that was bumpy wait till the negotiation begin.
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What you talking about?

It will be easy.

We are in control now.

We just need every single one of the 27 other EU countries to give us permission to trade/travel with our largest trade partner.

Before, we were decision makers in the room with the power to veto anything the EU wanted to do that could affect us negatively.

Now we wait outside the room and hope for the best.

Like I said,

Complete, control.
 
suedester said:
No, I'm just trying to bring balance to a thread and point out what I see as hypocrisies. People bitching about Cameron holding a referendum whilst fervently supporting the SNP and Sturgeons right to hold as many as she likes until she gets the result she wants is definitely one of them.
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If we're lucky it will only amount to 1 held by Sturgeon.

1pdj5Cu.gif
 
If this is anything like any other EU negotiation, basically nothing will happen for the next two years and then at 11:59 on the night the deal is made May will be forced to accept some shitty deal or blow up the British economy. woohoo!
 
Biggzy said:
I wish the Brexit supporters will explain in what way the EU stops Britain from being a fairer society.
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I'd imagine they'd throw out the weary old argument of them forcing their laws on us.

You know, the kind that stopped Parliament from abusing or denying worker's right?
 
TeamLeftMatch said:
If you think that was bumpy wait till the negotiation begin.
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I'm not expecting the real bumpy stuff to happen for 5years, we have a few years left in and then transition/government throwing cash at problems to smooth it over.

Eventually it will start to really suck but not for a while. The ups and downs of the negotiations are not that important it is the deal that matters.
 
Stead Fast said:
I'd imagine they'd throw out the weary old argument of them forcing their laws on us.

You know, the kind that stopped Parliament from abusing or denying worker's right?
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Aside from some rhetoric around things like that, it is one fundamental reason to pay attention to ripple effects. We're now essentially going to be under a Tory reign which won't be accountable to anyone. Especially not if Labour keeps getting beaten at ease.

suedester said:
Hehe. It might take a few more but you'll get there eventually, have no fear. If at first you don't succeed and all that.
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Good advice for life that. If we all just gave up the first time we failed at something where would we all be?
 
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