UK set to trigger Brexit on March 29

When should the UK celebrate Independence Day?


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Spain clearly wants something.

Well, sure. It's not Gibraltar's sovereignty though, it's being in a position to majorly influence Gibraltar's relationship with the EU. Which, newsflash, it already has that position, not just for Gibraltar, the whole of the UK, through the use of the veto.

Now, I doubt Spain has the good of Gibraltar's citizens at heart, why would it, but it does have the good of it's citizens. Citizens that also require a "special" Spain / Gibraltar relationship, one the rest of the UK won't need. And sure, it also wants the power to for instance close the border without needing to convince the rest of the EU. Something something control.

But I guess the whole of the UK can always go hard Brexit, since threats of war is the result of the "easy" questions, wonder what'll happen with the NI border (more likely a NI / rest of the UK border), whatever answer politicians come up with, I'm starting to think will lead to people dying...
 
all those special rules for our special snowflakes, still not enough

How people still can believe that narrative is beyond me. How delusional does one have to be to really believe that? Haw many other EU members got all the concessions the UK did even after halting progress for that long?

Let them live in their misplaced nostalgia for the British Empire. At least they won't bother the EU anymore.
 
You're wrong...

No, I'm not, but thanks for providing quotes that prove that for me, and also proving yourself to be an idiot while you were at it.

Angus MacNeil, the SNP's rural affairs spokesman, told the BBC that both Shetland and Orkney would be permitted to remain part of the UK regardless of the referendum result "if there was a big enough drive for self-determination" among their residents.
If they did not join a separate Scotland, he said the islands would retain control over a "fair fraction" of the North Sea oil and gas that Alex Salmond is relying on to fund public services.
This merely says that the SNP wouldn't stand in the way if a drive for self determination arose, it says nothing about the relative likelyhood of such an event occurring.
Let's see how likely that is...

Orkney has traditionally been extremely hostile to Scottish independence and preferred Westminster government to that from Holyrood. They were part of Norway, not Scotland, until the late 15th century

However, a 2013 poll found only eight per cent backed leaving Scotland in the event of independence. The islanders overwhelmingly backed remaining in the UK and the European Union at both referendums in 2014 and 2016.
Do you even understand what you quoted?
If Scotland was to declare independence only 8% of Orkadians were interested in severing ties with the independent Scotland. That's absolutely fuck all. Might be different in Shetland, but there's no chance of Scotland going anywhere without Orkney.

They also have a Lib Dem MP (the last in Scotland) and unionist candidates always pull a solid majority.
Fucking hilarious.
The MP for Orkney and Shetland is
lying
Alistair Cairmichael who in 2015 won with a majority of 817, down from 9928 in the previous GE. That's the first time a majority of under 1000 has been recorded in the seat since 1945. You may remember that a group of constituents crowd-funded an effort to overturn the result after he was caught lying about 'Memo-gate'. He was found to have lied, but not in such a way that allowed the result to be over-turned under election laws.

His SNP opponent in that election has since passed on, so it is unclear whether the next SNP candidate will come as close, but as an example of a 'safe' Unionist seat it's bullshit. (Anecdotally, Shetland would have selected the SNP in that election, but Orkney votes tipped the balance back to the Lib Dems.)

Meanwhile Scottish Fishermen's Federation chief executive Bertie Armstrong said:" The focus of the fishing industry is entirely on ensuring we free ourselves from the straitjacket of the common fisheries policy [CFP], which forces us to give away to other EU countries almost 60 per cent of the fish in our waters.

"Any constitutional arrangement under which we would continue to be bound by the CFP would be unacceptable to the industry."

Scott said: "And so it begins again. Just two years after putting the country through one divisive referendum, the SNP are using the chaos of Brexit to force another one.
This is exactly the sort of stuff I talked about. Shetland fishermen don't like the CFP (though here you've quoted the Scottish federation instead of someone from Shetland for reasons I can't begin to imagine). That hate of the CFP only lasts as long as they aren't getting a worse deal in the Brexit negotiations, which they easily could as it's one of the few legitimate cards the UK has to deal with.

I salute your indefatigability, but just admit you don't have a clue and move on to your next talking point.

P.S. - I know absolutely nothing about Ye Olde Northumbria, if that helps. :)
 
They never did. Is why we voted out.

giphy.gif


Britain during 44 years of EU temper tantrums.
 
Well, sure. It's not Gibraltar's sovereignty though, it's being in a position to majorly influence Gibraltar's relationship with the EU. Which, newsflash, it already has that position, not just for Gibraltar, the whole of the UK, through the use of the veto.

Now, I doubt Spain has the good of Gibraltar's citizens at heart, why would it, but it does have the good of it's citizens. Citizens that also require a "special" Spain / Gibraltar relationship, one the rest of the UK won't need. And sure, it also wants the power to for instance close the border without needing to convince the rest of the EU. Something something control.

But I guess the whole of the UK can always go hard Brexit, since threats of war is the result of the "easy" questions, wonder what'll happen with the NI border (more likely a NI / rest of the UK border), whatever answer politicians come up with, I'm starting to think will lead to people dying...

This is my main concern from all this, as if a hard border is applied to Northern Ireland at the end of negotiations, all bets are off. I'd like to think that it'll remain peaceful up there, but with the recent shift in the political landscape up there and the inability for both sides to reach an agreement for power sharing, coupled with how unpalatable a hard border would be for ALL communities both north and south of the border, regardless of how people voted in the referendum, has made me very concerned about what'll happen next, as May and her government's incompetence so far has failed to instill any confidence in me about the matter.
 
No, I'm not, but thanks for providing quotes that prove that for me, and also proving yourself to be an idiot while you were at it.

Edit: Overly aggressive. I'll turn the other cheek.

That was one poll from an area with a small population and that has a strong possibility of having a significant drive to remain in the UK in another referendum. If they do so, even the SNP has said that they can then re-examine the question themselves. You're the one telling the smaller part to essentially shut up, not me.

Unionists candidates have a solid majority in Orkney and Shetland, you'd have to be a complete fool to not understand I was including the other unionist parties besides the Lib Dems in that statement.
 
They never did. Is why we voted out.
You guys started it by sending over only the most blindingly offensive refuse that crawled out of your Sellafield facilities to represent you as MEP.

Who on Earth would care about someone represented by Farage of all people? You let that fucknut rile up the rest of the EU for YEARS. He made a freaking sport of it. Right out in the open, for all to see. You don't get to pretend to be a poor victim now. The chickens are coming home to roost, is all.
 
You're really one to talk. I provide real sources with direct quotes and you prove that you put your political views ahead of facts. You seem incapable of reading something and understanding what it means, it's truly incredible. You're a bit like a sieve when you come into contact with knowledge, so I'll stop communicating with you.

You provided real sources with direct quotes, but you didn't read them.

There was nothing political in anything I said, I gave you facts combined with context which somewhat supported your argument in relation to Shetland, but weakened it in relation to Orkney. If you'd left Orkney out of your original post I wouldn't have felt the need to start correcting you at all.

That's okay though, I'm not trying to change your mind. My comments are intended for the others in the thread that might read your comments and believe that you know what you are talking about just because there's a source after it.

EDIT: After your edit:
That was one poll from an area with a small population and that has a strong possibility of having a significant drive to remain in the UK in another referendum. If they do so, even the SNP has said that they can then re-examine the question themselves. You're the one telling the smaller part to essentially shut up, not me.
Eh? I'm not telling anyone to shut up. I'm saying that the reality is that whichever way they vote in a new independence referendum Orkney will stick with Scotland. This was evidenced in the poll that you quoted to me, which won't have improved substantially after the EU ref given that Orkney was broadly in-line with the rest of Scotland on that.

Unionists candidates have a solid majority in Orkney and Shetland, you'd have to be a complete idiot to not understand I was including the other unionist parties besides the Lib Dems in that statement, which you are.
What the on Earth is this? I'm starting to wonder if you even live in the UK if that's the extent to which you understand our electoral systems.
Let's play a quick game: UKIP got 4.8% of the vote in that election, does that match the result of the EU ref? <Yes/No/Oh, it's not the same as a referendum is it>.

If you want to take the 2015 general election as a referendum on Scottish independence, which I don't but we'll play by your rules, then the swing from Unionist to Nationalist was 27.2%.
Another swing of that magnitude would put the combined Unionist parties into the minority. Under ordinary circumstances I would say that repeating that swing would be impossible, but with the Brexit negotiations still ahead I wouldn't like to bet on it.
 
You guys started it by sending over only the most blindingly offensive refuse that crawled out of your Sellafield facilities to represent you as MEP.

Who on Earth would care about someone represented by Farage of all people? You let that fucknut rile up the rest of the EU for YEARS. He made a freaking sport of it. Right out in the open, for all to see. You don't get to pretend to be a poor victim now. The chickens are coming home to roost, is all.
It's called democracy. Eurosceptic constituencies elect Eurosceptic MEPs. It happens in every EU country. Are you suggesting the UK government should control who stands for election because their views differ? Your post is utterly ludicrous.
 
That's okay though, I'm not trying to change your mind. My comments are intended for the others in the thread that might read your comments and believe that you know what you are talking about just because there's a source after it.

I don't think there's any chance of that
 
It's called democracy. Eurosceptic constituencies elect Eurosceptic MEPs. It happens in every EU country. Are you suggesting the UK government should control who stands for election because their views differ? Your post is utterly ludicrous.

He wasn't just a sceptic, he was insulting and abusive towards the representatives of other people.
 
You provided real sources with direct quotes, but you didn't read them.

There was nothing political in anything I said, I gave you facts combined with context which somewhat supported your argument in relation to Shetland, but weakened it in relation to Orkney. If you'd left Orkney out of your original post I wouldn't have felt the need to start correcting you at all.

That's okay though, I'm not trying to change your mind. My comments are intended for the others in the thread that might read your comments and believe that you know what you are talking about just because there's a source after it.

Since I cannot resist...

Again, one poll. That section was of primary interest because of how it points out that the islands were part of Norway until the 15th century A.D.

But let's talk about that poll. If you must know, that supposed poll isn't linked to in the article. Rather, it links to the other Telegraph article I linked, which mentions no such poll, so I'd be interested to see it. It seems impossibly low, and the fact that there are even articles about this implies that the actual figure is probably higher... Regardless, the other articles I linked have no similar claim that works against the idea that they may desire a different path.
 
He wasn't just a sceptic, he was insulting and abusive towards the representatives of other people.

That bares no relevance to my post. The only thing to stop him being elected is for ukip to delist him or his constituency to elect someone else.
 
That bares no relevance to my post. The only thing to stop him being elected is for ukip to delist him or his constituency to elect someone else.

He didn't say he couldn't be elected, only that it has consequences. Like making Boris the foreign secretary and pissing off European politicians.
 
That bares no relevance to my post. The only thing to stop him being elected is for ukip to delist him or his constituency to elect someone else.

That's not up to the EU is it?

We can't keep electing twats who do their job as MEPs by openly antagonising the EU then moan when that hostility isn't reciprocated with unconditional love.
 
He didn't say he couldn't be elected, only that it has consequences. Like making Boris the foreign secretary and pissing off European politicians.

A very small percentage of the UK was responsible for voting in Farage. There are plenty of trouble makers voted as MEPs from all countries. Farage is as relevant to Brexit negotiations as you and me.
 
A very small percentage of the UK was responsible for voting in Farage. There are plenty of trouble makers voted as MEPs from all countries. Farage is as relevant to Brexit negotiations as you and me.

There was a period where he was being treated as entertainment in this country, as if he was the political pub landlord. I know other countries have the same types, we are the only ones so far that have followed them over the edge.
 
It's called democracy. Eurosceptic constituencies elect Eurosceptic MEPs. It happens in every EU country. Are you suggesting the UK government should control who stands for election because their views differ? Your post is utterly ludicrous.
Oh, so now EU is suddenly democratic again? ;-P

Ya know, there's Eurosceptics, and there's blithering fools that wilfully rage against their colleagues until they get fined for inappropriate behaviour in parliament. One of them is OK as representative of a country, the other one is not. There's something called professionalism. Or diplomacy. Or freaking manners.

Again. That guy was the public face of the UK. The people let him represent their country. So now, after years of burned bridges and poisoned wells, none of them get to pretend to have received a raw deal in all of this. That's just how it is. You get what you vote for.
 
So now, after years of burned bridges and poisoned wells, none of them get to pretend to have received a raw deal in all of this. That's just how it is. You get what you vote for.

Farage or not, if the deal is shit then too fucking right I'll complain about it.

I'm confident the decision makers and negotiators are more professional and less vindictive than most who have taken a personal affront to Brexit in this thread.
 
They are also probably more realistic than the Brexit flimflam that riles up so much of this thread. Ignorance of Britain's special deals and pinning blame on Brussels for EVETYTHING included.
 
Farage or not, if the deal is shit then too fucking right I'll complain about it.

I'm confident the decision makers and negotiators are more professional and less vindictive than most who have taken a personal affront to Brexit in this thread.

In the face of the sheer incompetence of the UK government, the open threat May poisoned her Art. 50 letter with and the utter stupidity that is "No deal is better than a bad deal" rhetoric, this post is pure Realsatire.

Look it up, we're all gonna communicate in German from now on anyway. &#128536;
 
In the face of the sheer incompetence of the UK government, the open threat May poisoned her Art. 50 letter with and the utter stupidity that is "No deal is better than a bad deal" rhetoric, this post is pure Realsatire.

Look it up, we're all gonna communicate in German from now on anyway. &#128536;

Your post is purely subjective although i was referring to the EU side.
 
Yeah, that's the point why there is resentment towards us, isn't it?

Maybe, but in the context of massive levels of international trade, mineral wealth rights, visa-free travel and living, giving French farmers enormous sums of money for basically no reason, the sharing of intelligence resources regarding terrorist cells operating in Europe, a combined space programme etc... In the context of all that, isn't tangible resentment due to Farage a bit like hating Argentinian people because Maradona scored a handball in the World Cup?
 
Farage or not, if the deal is shit then too fucking right I'll complain about it.

I'm confident the decision makers and negotiators are more professional and less vindictive than most who have taken a personal affront to Brexit in this thread.

Sure but if the deal is bad for the UK, the fault is hardly going to be of the EU.
The UK public voted to leave, they voted for the people in charge (well sort of), they voted for the people that were representing them before they left, so it is up to the UK to procure the best deal it can for the UK, much like it is the EU job to procure the best deal for the EU.

It really isn't about being vindictive, its more about how much the people making the decisions think that doing certain things to the UK is going to be beneficial to them, if for example the banking passport gets revoked, there will be some countries genuinely benefiting from that, so do the people in those countries not have the obligation to their people to pursue that course of action even if that might damage the UK.
 
It really isn't about being vindictive, its more about how much the people making the decisions think that doing certain things to the UK is going to be beneficial to them, if for example the banking passport gets revoked, there will be some countries genuinely benefiting from that, so do the people in those countries not have the obligation to their people to pursue that course of action even if that might damage the UK.

This is undoubtedly true. I think what some people are worried about (and generally what people who say they think Britain will be 'punished' by the EU mean) is a sort of "pour encourager les autres" deal where the EU goes in hard to make it as bad for the UK as possible even when doing so harms the EU itself on the grounds that keeping the EU together is the #1 goal and therefore anything they can do to make leaving the EU as unappealing as possible is worth doing. In this case, whilst they'd still think that they're doing it for the good of their people, the relationship between what they're seeking and what's good for the people of the EU is a lot more... woolly than in your financial passporting example.
 
Maybe, but in the context of massive levels of international trade, mineral wealth rights, visa-free travel and living, giving French farmers enormous sums of money for basically no reason, the sharing of intelligence resources regarding terrorist cells operating in Europe, a combined space programme etc... In the context of all that, isn't tangible resentment due to Farage a bit like hating Argentinian people because Maradona scored a handball in the World Cup?


I don't know what to say to you, I have seen plenty of people in Europe sick to the back teeth of the UK and its attitude. How much will they allow it to affect their eventual positions is hard to say.

Boris might please the average Spectator reader but he went down really badly, May appointing him has probably been more damaging than the years of Farage pouring out abuse in Brussels.

For some reason people in the UK struggle with the idea that what they find amusing could go down like a lead balloon on the continent.
 
This is undoubtedly true. I think what some people are worried about (and generally what people who say they think Britain will be 'punished' by the EU mean) is a sort of "pour encourager les autres" deal where the EU goes in hard to make it as bad for the UK as possible even when doing so harms the EU itself on the grounds that keeping the EU together is the #1 goal and therefore anything they can do to make leaving the EU as unappealing as possible is worth doing. In this case, whilst they'd still think that they're doing it for the good of their people, the relationship between what they're seeking and what's good for the people of the EU is a lot more... woolly than in your financial passporting example.

I don't see what is at all wrong with a sub-optimal "pour encourager les autres" deal at least from the EU's side. 3% to 4% of EU27 GDP is based on trade with the UK, about 52% is based on trade with the rest of the Single Market (going up to countries like Hungary where 90% of their trade is with other single market countries)

If I'm the EU, and I had to safeguard one relationship I know which one I'd pick (and it wouldn't even be close, if there's any threat to the stability of Single Market by Brexit which can be alleviated by limiting the UK's access then it's logical to do that). Fundamentally the majority of trade in the EU is conducted via a political construct so you can't neatly remove the political dimension from the economic decisions.

It's not like we weren't well warned.
 
I don't see what is at all wrong with a sub-optimal "pour encourager les autres" deal at least from the EU's side. 3% to 4% of EU27 GDP is based on trade with the UK, about 52% is based on trade with the rest of the Single Market (going up to countries like Hungary where 90% of their trade is with other single market countries)

If I'm the EU, and I had to safeguard one relationship I know which one I'd pick. Fundamentally the majority of trade in the EU is conducted via a political construct so you can't neatly remove the political dimension from the economic decisions.

It's not like we weren't well warned.

Sure, and like I said, I don't think that *they* think they're playing Brinkmanship, but it's easy to see why some British people might think they're being punished if they see a deal that "artificially" makes life harder for them (by which I mean a better deal would have benefitted both entities) just to show other countries that they, too, would face artificially poor trading conditions if they left. One would like to think that being in the EU is a sufficiently attractive prospect that they don't need to threaten to make life worse than it need to be should a second country choose to leave, I guess is the point.
 
This is undoubtedly true. I think what some people are worried about (and generally what people who say they think Britain will be 'punished' by the EU mean) is a sort of "pour encourager les autres" deal where the EU goes in hard to make it as bad for the UK as possible even when doing so harms the EU itself on the grounds that keeping the EU together is the #1 goal and therefore anything they can do to make leaving the EU as unappealing as possible is worth doing. In this case, whilst they'd still think that they're doing it for the good of their people, the relationship between what they're seeking and what's good for the people of the EU is a lot more... woolly than in your financial passporting example.


But that's just not what's happening. If EU wanted a deal that's as bad as possible for the UK, it would simply state that the UK has fucked it up and that negotiations are over right now. The EU has made certain red lines clear time and again, but still kept the door wide, wide open for either a soft brexit or a hard brexit, while the UKs politicians where still caught in their promises about single market access without freedom of movement.
I do think the EU, and especially certain politicians, have every right to be very, very pissed at the UK, but nevertheless there is actually not much shit-talking at all - again in contrast to the UK.
 
Currently witnessing a growing sentiment of UK-based EU people that we better leave the UK as soon as possible, no matter how negotiations go regarding our status in the UK.

There's been a buzzfeed article about it as well yesterday "These Europeans are leaving the UK because of Brexit" (link) - other than that there are a couple of facebook groups in which EU people help each other with the psychological stress of leaving the UK and having to start over in a different country.

Probably pretty fair to say that EU citizens who have made the UK their home for the last years (in some cases 20 + years) are bitterly disappointed and have lost all trust in the UK to provide them with a non-hostile living environment for the foreseeable future.

The weird irony of it is that UK-based EU citizens can actually leave with relative ease, whilst UK citizens will probably find it a lot harder in the future to escape the island.
 
Currently witnessing a growing sentiment of UK-based EU people that we better leave the UK as soon as possible, no matter how negotiations go regarding our status in the UK.

There's been a buzzfeed article about it as well yesterday "These Europeans are leaving the UK because of Brexit" (link) - other than that there are a couple of facebook groups in which EU people help each other with the psychological stress of leaving the UK and having to start over in a different country.

Probably pretty fair to say that EU citizens who have made the UK their home for the last years (in some cases 20 + years) are bitterly disappointed and have lost all trust in the UK to provide them with a non-hostile living environment for the foreseeable future.

The weird irony of it is that UK-based EU citizens can actually leave with relative ease, whilst UK citizens will probably find it a lot harder in the future to escape the island.


If I were an EU citizen living in the UK, I'd get out of their ASAP, too.
 
If I were an EU citizen living in the UK, I'd get out of their ASAP, too.

It's hard to leave home. Objectively speaking staying in the UK with all that uncertainty must be reaaaaaally difficult for one's mind. I know that from relatives and friends from Greece. I got calls daily during the worst times of the crisis.
 
The Spanish government is urging the UK to calm down over Gibraltar. As Reuters reports, the Spanish foreign minister, Alfonso Dastis, told a conference this morning:

The Spanish government is a little surprised by the tone of comments coming out of Britain, a country known for its composure.

Dastis also said, according to the Financial Times:

In this case, the traditional British composure has been notable for its absence.
 
If I were an EU citizen living in the UK, I'd get out of their ASAP, too.

We only have a few years left of bashing Europe and waffling on about sovereignty, it will then hopefully calm down as nobody will have to listen to us anymore.

The Scottish issue should take centre stage and bashing them will occupy the press by then.
 
The Spanish government is urging the UK to calm down over Gibraltar. As Reuters reports, the Spanish foreign minister, Alfonso Dastis, told a conference this morning:

The Spanish government is a little surprised by the tone of comments coming out of Britain, a country known for its composure.

Dastis also said, according to the Financial Times:

In this case, the traditional British composure has been notable for its absence.

Well, that escalated quickly.
 
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