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[Slaythe]

Well... duh.

Lmao yeah.

Dragon Ball Super is allowing the cast of characters to actually be interesting again.

They could have absolutely handled power levels better, it is what it is. But it's still better than it was for years.

Like what are the consequences ?

Varied cast ? Fan favorite characters relevant ? Diversity in fighting styles ? Emphasis on techniques and strategy ? Encouraging Teamwork ?

Oh no, the infamy.

Please reveal how 17 trained.

It's actually a two parter.

I'm hoping they throw the fanbase a bone to appease the power level people.

 

[Suburban Thug]

I didn't mind the flimsy explanation for why 17 is able to go toe to toe with SSB Goku. I'm just happy non-saiyan characters are becoming relevant again. Now we just need Piccolo to get his God power up...

 

[Undead Fantasy]

Now we just need Piccolo to get his God power up...

OK. I'm really surprised on how many people want this.

I thought I was the only one here.

 

[Slaythe]

OK. I'm really surprised on how many people want this.

I thought I was the only one here.

We want all characters to matter.

Are you really gonna stay mad if that happens ?

 

[LotusHD]

OK. I'm really surprised on how many people want this.

I want all the old favorites to get their day in the sun, even if they need a BS powerup/training session to get it

 

[Undead Fantasy]

We want all characters to matter.

Are you really gonna stay mad if that happens ?

The arc is already ruined for me but I say at least lets get something out of it.

Now my worry is that they get that strong without the time chamber. They only have 31 hours after all, if they reach god level in that time then lol.

 

[Slaythe]

The arc is already ruined for me but I say at least lets get something out of it.

You like Super's FnF arc.

Those are some low standards. And I'm not trolling you or trying to be mean, like that's not a bad thing in itself.

But there is no way you don't find redeeming qualities for this arc while liking Super's FnF.

Which to me, was the worst "anime" thing I have ever seen. And it's not like it did Piccolo any favor, being trashed by Tagoma and then getting killed again.

You're gonna tell me that now we have a pretty arc (with compelling story boarding and nice artistic direction) with everybody that matters and a new direction for the battles, with diversity in the roster and fighting style, in a never before battle royal context, is going to be WORSE than Super's FnF to you ?

That's honestly something I can't fathom man.

Just think about how Piccolo is finally gonna shine again. You're gonna see him do cool moves again, think Makkankosappo, Hell grenade, that Piccolo is gonna be back.

And yet this is worst to you because 17 is strong now. Pls. =(

 

[Skeeter49]

17 probably got his strength to go toe to toe with Blue by absorbing the Kamehameha. Goku will ask in the next episode why he isn't using that strength now, and he'll say he lost it.

Is that a good solution? Was harnessing the opponent's energy a skillset 17 had?

If not, we'll probably get an explanation on what type of training he did to get this strong. These 2 episodes aren't the only episodes with 17, and Goku's character has never really cared how others got as strong as they did, he just cares that they're strong. 18 or Krillin would be the more appropriate characters to ask him how he got so strong. I'd give it until an 18 and 17 reunion episode, which we have to get, before I really judge everything presented. We literally know nothing about 17's history, and that's intentional to build more on it in the future.

 

[Slaythe]

17 probably got his strength to go toe to toe with Blue by absorbing the Kamehameha. Goku will ask in the next episode why he isn't using that strength now, and he'll say he lost it.

Is that a good solution? Was harnessing the opponent's energy a skillset 17 had?

It was stated 17 can not absorb energy like 19 and 20 because he is not mechanical (with his hands).

But it was never stated his barrier couldn't absorb anything.

It wasn't stated it could either though. That was a Super 17 thing.

There's also a good chance they do reveal how he got that strong when he meets up with 18.

Keep in mind they might ALL train in the HTC or Whis dimension still.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

You like Super's FnF arc.

Those are some low standards. And I'm not trolling you or trying to be mean, like that's not a bad thing in itself.

But there is no way you don't find redeeming qualities for this arc while liking Super's FnF.

Which to me, was the worst "anime" thing I have ever seen. And it's not like it did Piccolo any favor, being trashed by Tagoma and then getting killed again.

You're gonna tell me that now we have a pretty arc (with compelling story boarding and nice artistic direction) with everybody that matters and a new direction for the battles, with diversity in the roster and fighting style, in a never before battle royal context, is going to be WORSE than Super's FnF to you ?

That's honestly something I can't fathom man.

Just think about how Piccolo is finally gonna shine again. You're gonna see him do cool moves again, think Makkankosappo, Hell grenade, that Piccolo is gonna be back.

And yet this is worst to you because 17 is strong now. Pls. =(

You do have valid points but I'm the guy that values story over everything else. I genuinely liked the story for the RoF arc, all the additions they made fixed a lot of the mistakes of the movie. Hell they brought back one of my favorite villains of Z.

I honestly couldn't care less how it looked and I really don't want to get burned on Piccolo and Gohan again. The latter didn't even participated in the last tournament and couldn't win his exhibition match.

As for Piccolo, well... I learned my lesson with this:

I really want to be wrong and get hyped but this recent episode truly got me down. As stupid as many think that is.

 

[ArchedThunder]

We still on this shit?

Idrc it's actually kinda cool to see the Others strong as hell. Now make two certain saiyans the same way and we good

I'm tellin you my dude, it's comin, they're setting it up this arc!

I fully expect Cabba to have blue in the tournament now. Frost gold too.

Frost having an ultimate evolution seems fairly likely to me. I just wonder what color it would be, Freeza picked gold himself to mock Super Saiyan, Frost was also humiliated by Super Saiyans and wasn't awake to see Blue so he might go with gold too, but I'd rather he pick his own color.

Apparently next episode isn't just fodder.

So it's possible we get more of 17's backstory.

Hmm?

 

[Undead Fantasy]

We still on this shit?

Well he asked me lol.

17 probably got his strength to go toe to toe with Blue by absorbing the Kamehameha. Goku will ask in the next episode why he isn't using that strength now, and he'll say he lost it.

Is that a good solution? Was harnessing the opponent's energy a skillset 17 had?

If not, we'll probably get an explanation on what type of training he did to get this strong. These 2 episodes aren't the only episodes with 17, and Goku's character has never really cared how others got as strong as they did, he just cares that they're strong. 18 or Krillin would be the more appropriate characters to ask him how he got so strong. I'd give it until an 18 and 17 reunion episode, which we have to get, before I really judge everything presented. We literally know nothing about 17's history, and that's intentional to build more on it in the future.

Another valid explanation. They never said his barrier couldn't absorb energy.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Still makes 0 sense to me. Now that everyone is including Trunks' timeline, why were they so easily defeated by him? lol wut?

Even without training, the present 17 could probably one shot future 17.

Edit: Didn't Trunks in the android saga say that he could almost hold his own against each of the androids in his timeline, individually, at least? And he was taken out with one blow from present 17, who was clearly holding back still.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

Even without training, the present 17 could probably one shot future 17.

Correct. Future Trunks said that he could manage to fight the Future Androids for a bit but got beaten in one blow by the present ones.

 

[Slaythe]

Trunks was wrong though.

The point was that the future androids never used their full power to toy with him. Trunks has no idea what he's talking about because he can't feel their power.

 

[Skeeter49]

I just thought of it.
Father/ Son Kamehameha Beam Cannon.

Special Beam cannon inside of a Kamehameha. Will take down the final opponent after Goku loses. Book it.

My understanding is anime/ special logic, future androids are weaker. Manga it's hard to tell because they weren't using their full power against Gohan or Trunks.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

Trunks was wrong though.

The point was that the future androids never used their full power to toy with him. Trunks has no idea what he's talking about because he can't feel their power.

I don't think so. If I remember correctly one Daizenshuu confirms they are weaker.

 

[Slaythe]

I don't think so. If I remember correctly one Daizenshuu confirms they are weaker.

Daizenshuu was wrong.

It's an easy mistake.

Toriyama wrote the Future Trunks story chapter right as the Cell saga was ending.

In it, he revealed 17 could kill Gohan without even using half his strength. That's why Gohan died, he thought he was powerful enough based off his previous fights.

Trunks makes the exact same mistake, Bulma tells him he's not much stronger than Gohan yet Trunks is convinced he can win, and is of course overwhelmed.

The morality is that they use Trunks as their new toy.

Daizenshuu was basing their trivia off what Trunks said initially, which was wrong.

When Trunks comes back to the future, 17 confirms he saw Trunks as a toy.

 

[Ashodin]

Episode 88 is so dreamy~

I need it now

 

[Undead Fantasy]

Daizenshuu was wrong.

It's an easy mistake.

Toriyama wrote the Future Trunks story chapter right as the Cell saga was ending.

In it, he revealed 17 could kill Gohan without even using half his strength. That's why Gohan died, he thought he was powerful enough based off his previous fights.

Trunks makes the exact same mistake, Bulma tells him he's not much stronger than Gohan yet Trunks is convinced he can win, and is of course overwhelmed.

The morality is that they use Trunks as their new toy.

Daizenshuu was basing their trivia off what Trunks said initially, which was wrong.

When Trunks comes back to the future, 17 confirms he saw Trunks as a toy.

But we never saw Future Trunks fight the Androids after returning to the future the first time. I think I'm siding with the Daizenshuu on this one.

 

[LaNaranja]

As for Piccolo, well... I learned my lesson with this:

I really want to be wrong and get hyped but this recent episode truly got me down. As stupid as many think that is.

That was still a hype moment though. Piccolo shattered through the glass that had passed Champa's ki blast durability test. If Piccolo had actually connected he probably would have been disqualified for murdering Frost.

Edit: Speaking of Piccolo, I really hope his big buff is that he has learned how to shoot out the Special Beam Cannon instantly. Krillin is now able to shoot out Destructo Discs out like nothing when they used to take for every to crank out so why not Piccolo?

 

[Slaythe]

But we never saw Future Trunks fight the Androids after returning to the future the first time. I think I'm siding with the Daizenshuu on this one.

He never went all out against Trunks. This is proof.

Does this imply their last encounter was even ? Or that they had fun with him, got bored, and left him for dead ? Exactly like they did Gohan the first time.

Now I can prove that Toriyama made the mirroring intentional (or if you think laziness, he at least remembered the original chapter). There's something probably nobody noticed besides me.

The Gohan scene's panel :

The Trunks panel is a literal copy paste of the Gohan one. Yet spent some time modifying it a bit as the scarf has a bit more details.

And then 17's dialog

Trunks can not feel their powers. He has no clue what their real strength is.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

That was still a hype moment though. Piccolo shattered through the glass that had passed Champa's ki blast durability test. If Piccolo had actually connected he probably would have been disqualified for murdering Frost.

Depends on where the SBC connected. Remember that Freeza survived without half a body.

Slaythe: I never said they were equal. The future androids are obviously stronger than Trunks but just not enough to beat him with one blow like the present ones did and we actually never got confirmation if the latter ones fought at full power or not in that battle.

It's all up to interpretation and since we never saw those fights I'll stick with the guidebooks on this.

 

[Slaythe]

Depends on where the SBC connected. Remember that Freeza survived without half a body.

We're gonna get Thiccolo back bruh.

Believe.

 

[Undead Fantasy]

Edit: Speaking of Piccolo, I really hope his big buff is that he has learned how to shoot out the Special Beam Cannon instantly. Krillin is now able to shoot out Destructo Discs out like nothing when they used to take for every to crank out so why not Piccolo?

I rather him get that red eye Namekian transformation from Heroes.

 

[Dark_castle]

Um the mafuba is from OG Dragonball

Read mafuba as mabufu. Played too much P5 lately.

 

[Slaythe]

Slaythe: I never said they were equal. The future androids are obviously stronger than Trunks but just not enough to beat him with one blow like the present ones did and we actually never got confirmation if the latter ones fought at full power or not in that battle.

It's all up to interpretation and since we never saw those fights I'll stick with the guidebooks on this.

But there's no interpretation.

Future ones = have only one guy left to fight = make it last
We know they did this with Gohan. That's "fact". Something Trunks never knew. We have no reason to believe they would do otherwise with Trunks.

Present ones = get rid of the guy interfering with the fight = end him as fast as possible

The entire debate only stems from what Trunks says initially, but everything that came afterwards proved he had no idea what he was talking about.

edit :

Oh and the entire confusion is because of the anime, that completely changed the Future bits every chance they could, and the worst offender was the Trunks OAV story that literally removed the crucial plot points.

So for most people watching the anime, what Trunks said had no reason to be questioned. In the manga though, he is wrong.

 

[Skeeter49]

Episode 88 is so dreamy~

I need it now

I'm more excited for the NEP than the episode next week.
We know 17 is going to agree by the end.

 

[vypek]

Very slowly catching up to everyone else. Just finished the Future Trunks arc yesterday. Pretty sure the next episode is the Arale episode and the comments said to just skip it so I might do that but I'm still really curious about it.

 

[ElFly]

really have to wonder how 17 trained, but also the timeline of his training is also interesting

it's been 10-12 years since cell I think?

was 17 stronger than Buu in the Buu saga? at least he must have surpassed Cell and Gohan by then? how did he get killed by the genocide attack? maybe because he cannot feel ki? was he stronger than SSG in BoG?

maybe he only reached his current level recently, otherwise things make no much sense. which again, could mean that the power levels in DBZ are really compressed. Cell wasn't that much stronger than Cell, and Buu wasn't that much stronger than Cell, and Beerus isn't really that much stronger than Buu, and SSB is a small, but necessary step over SSJ3

 

[caliph95]

really have to wonder how 17 trained, but also the timeline of his training is also interesting

it's been 10-12 years since cell I think?

was 17 stronger than Buu in the Buu saga? at least he must have surpassed Cell and Gohan by then? how did he get killed by the genocide attack? maybe because he cannot feel ki? was he stronger than SSG in BoG?

maybe he only reached his current level recently, otherwise things make no much sense. which again, could mean that the power levels in DBZ are really compressed. Cell wasn't that much stronger than Cell, and Buu wasn't that much stronger than Cell, and Beerus isn't really that much stronger than Buu, and SSB is a small, but necessary step over SSJ3

Did we see him get kill by the genocide attack, if chiatzou could survive i assume 17 can

 

[Skeeter49]

Maybe Cell survived, and 17 chained him up and forced him into Zenkai boosts by fighting and getting him near death. So as 17 fought stronger and stronger Cell's, he got stronger.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Does that mean 18 can be this strong too

 

[ElFly]

Did we see him get kill by the genocide attack, if chiatzou could survive i assume 17 can

you'd think that anyone that powerful would be concerned enough to show up to fight Buu tho. Ten certainly did, while as always, leaving Chaotzu behind. then again, maybe he cannot sense Ki so how would he know what to do? but he must have been getting the Babidi transmissions about Piccolo and Goten and Trunks. Piccolo he _must_ have recognized

particularly if 17's family or friends got killed at that point. he shows up to give energy (???) for the Genki Dama at the end and he was at a park -but I think the poachers are anime only?- so I guess he could have been alone when killed

if he survived, he got killed along with the Earth anyway by Kid Buu in the end

Does that mean 18 can be this strong too

I think Gero put some limiters on her but I don't doubt she could at least train to get some gains

 

[Slaythe]

They can't feel 17 so it's unlikely the genocide attack targetted him.

He died when earth blew up though.

Also Beerus revealed he wasn't even trying.

When Whis compared their (ssg level) power to Beerus, they were pathetic, in Super.

Which would explain why everybody can seemingly catch up, but it doesn't explain why they have an interest in Goku and Vegeta if they're that terrible. Maybe because they're the most devoted to reaching new heights ?

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

you'd think that anyone that powerful would be concerned enough to show up to fight Buu tho. Ten certainly did, while as always, leaving Chaotzu behind. then again, maybe he cannot sense Ki so how would he know what to do? but he must have been getting the Babidi transmissions about Piccolo and Goten and Trunks. Piccolo he _must_ have recognized

particularly if 17's family or friends got killed at that point. he shows up to give energy (???) for the Genki Dama at the end and he was at a park -but I think the poachers are anime only?- so I guess he could have been alone when killed

if he survived, he got killed along with the Earth anyway by Kid Buu in the end



I think Gero put some limiters on her but I don't doubt she could at least train to get some gains

Aww of course she got the limiters..🙃

 

[Skeeter49]

Does that mean 18 can be this strong too

I assume 18 has the potential.

Blame Krillin, he's holding her back. Maybe he shouldn't give his children the same names as his previous girlfriends.

Spoiler

Gero did supress her power, thinking it would make her more obedient.

 

[Slaythe]

Aww of course she got the limiters..🙃

She did.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

She did.

That's what I mean of course she was the one to get em. Why couldn't 18 be the strongest or neither has a limiter

 

[Skeeter49]

17 had to protect the Minitauros from Buu.

 

[ElFly]

Buu's genocide attack starts by looking around God's palace so it could partially be visual

 

[Slaythe]

That's what I mean of course she was the one to get em. Why couldn't 18 be the strongest or neither has a limiter

Well the reason was that it made no sense for Gero to make two androids that were identical.

17 was a failure so 18 had to get modifications to make her more docile...

And since the end result was a shitty weak ass robot, I assume they figured the transition had to be a "weaker android".

She isn't much weaker than 17 since 16 considered them to be in the same ballpark.

But maybe that's because 17 had greater potential, that was dormant.

That being said she can definitely get stronger and I hope she trains with 17 in the HTC or something.

It'd be cool if she brings up Vegeta's huge boost "btw Vegeta, how did you get that strong back then ? Oooh the HTC heh ?" . To get a "super" 18 .

Buu's genocide attack starts by looking around God's palace so it could partially be visual

And how do you suggest he targets indoor humans then ? He had to feel them with ki.

17 has none so he wasn't gonna target him.

 

[caliph95]

Or if they are being lazy have bulma remove her limiters

 

[Skeeter49]

Or if they are being lazy have bulma remove her limiters

Or the Dragon can do it, so he can be useful for once in Super.

 

[Blackleg-sanji1]

Or if they are being lazy have bulma remove her limiters

Lazy? Hell giving her a random powerup would be lazy bulma tinkering with her would actually make total sense to me

 

[Real Hero]

Very slowly catching up to everyone else. Just finished the Future Trunks arc yesterday. Pretty sure the next episode is the Arale episode and the comments said to just skip it so I might do that but I'm still really curious about it.

Don't listen to people telling you to skip stuff. Outside of watching the movies rather than the first two arcs there's no need to skip stuff

 

[caliph95]

Lazy? Hell giving her a random powerup would be lazy bulma tinkering with her would actually make total sense to me

True
but tbf to me lazy and smart isn't mutual exclusive

 

[Slaythe]

She literally only need time in the HTC with her brother.

Leave bulma out of this, she doesn't understand this technology she admitted it herself.

 

[JC Lately]

Does that mean 18 can be this strong too

Well, she's a woman in Dragon Ball, so no, probably not. And I say this as a huge 18 fan.

Always annoyed me how much of a sausage fest this show can be at times. Ah well.

 

[Arkeband]

I can't wait until Chaoitzu appears next arc and has secretly discovered how to go Mime Plus Plus, which is as powerful as SSB + KaioKen*30.