I may have to get a "McArdle was Right" T-Shirt made for election night 2018 if it looks like it's going really well.
Clinton: 'I was on the way to winning' until Comey, Russia intervened
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
jack_package_200
Banned
Hmmm
And people who still bring up the primaries blame Hillary or the DNC for crushing Bernie instead of Bernie taking responsibility for losing. Even though Bernie himself admitted he lost fair and square and to vote for Hillary.
Agreed.
Maintenance
Member
So you're going to argue that war did not help a lot of presidents to get reelected? Because my history knowledge might be faulty but I remember a lot of them winning.
They're not unlikely to vote sui generis, though. There are lots of factors that play into their being unlikely to vote. We should just attempt to change those factors.
Democrats believe that Russia tricked a lot of voters!
Well, neither base adds up to 270 electoral votes. I don't think it's correct to assume that each voter has joined their party's "base" and will just continue to vote for that party forever unless something significant changes. America's pendulum politics strongly suggest there's a significant bloc of voters who change their votes constantly, preferring out-of-power parties.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
Oh a Clinton thread on GAF, this will surely be different. Oh wait...
She isn't wrong, I mean it is pretty damn obvious given the information that has came out and will continue to come out.
She isn't wrong, I mean it is pretty damn obvious given the information that has came out and will continue to come out.
madstarr12
Member
"Berniecrats" don't even completely follow the guy they adore. He pleaded for them to vote for Hillary, and they called him out for being a "sell-out", and now they like him again post-election. They're a strange bunch.And people who still bring up the primaries blame Hillary or the DNC for crushing Bernie instead of Bernie taking responsibility for losing. Even though Bernie himself admitted he lost fair and square and to vote for Hillary.
legacyzero
Banned
I mean, I'm sure SOME of this played a part. But those that gleefully disregard the MAIN reasons why she lost will forever entertain me. Blame sexism, racism, stupid people all you want. The fact wont change. She just wasn't a good candidate. How many elections did she need to run in to prove that?
-Not very principled on the issues
-She's a moderate. Very clearly.
-Iraq War
-NAFTA
-TPP
-Corporate Interests
-Campaign focused on platitudes and cliches, and outrage at the dirty man that is Trump.
-Unwilling to appeal to Bernie-crats, After the DNC clearly tipped the scale in her favor, which is being argued in court currently
-Unwilling to appeal to the working class, especially in the Rust Belt, which voted Obama TWICE(Which we should NOT have lost)
-Abandoning WI, even after losing to Bernie there (which was a clue to the greater problem on the horizon)
Etc Etc Etc.
And yet, she and her campaign continues to not take personal responsibility, self assess, and admit wrong-doing without deflecting.
And I'm seeing the same ol song and dance in this thread. It's all about the racist, sexists, etc. No. It's about a candidate that had the easiest election in history to win, and she blew it. PERIOD. That group of "deplorables" Aint as big as some assume. We could have won this election. But probably not with Hillary. Even 2008 tells us this.
This.
If people are going to say "But the data" in this thread, they cant ignore the polls. Even now he's the most popular politician.
Data.
That's false, and even I'll tell you that as one of the biggest Bernie-crats on GAF. Most Bernie supporters I know got behind Hillary after the Primary because it was simply the right thing to do. It's the extreme Bernie supporters that acted like asses.
But also, Just like Hillary supporters said that Bernie didn't do well to earn the Minority vote, (which I agree to a certain extent, even though I feel he was more principled on the matter than she was), SHE didn't do very well to earn our vote, even though I understood it to be the logical choice. "FALL IN LINE" is not a valid way to earn votes.
-Not very principled on the issues
-She's a moderate. Very clearly.
-Iraq War
-NAFTA
-TPP
-Corporate Interests
-Campaign focused on platitudes and cliches, and outrage at the dirty man that is Trump.
-Unwilling to appeal to Bernie-crats, After the DNC clearly tipped the scale in her favor, which is being argued in court currently
-Unwilling to appeal to the working class, especially in the Rust Belt, which voted Obama TWICE(Which we should NOT have lost)
-Abandoning WI, even after losing to Bernie there (which was a clue to the greater problem on the horizon)
Etc Etc Etc.
And yet, she and her campaign continues to not take personal responsibility, self assess, and admit wrong-doing without deflecting.
And I'm seeing the same ol song and dance in this thread. It's all about the racist, sexists, etc. No. It's about a candidate that had the easiest election in history to win, and she blew it. PERIOD. That group of "deplorables" Aint as big as some assume. We could have won this election. But probably not with Hillary. Even 2008 tells us this.
This.
If people are going to say "But the data" in this thread, they cant ignore the polls. Even now he's the most popular politician.
Data.
That's false, and even I'll tell you that as one of the biggest Bernie-crats on GAF. Most Bernie supporters I know got behind Hillary after the Primary because it was simply the right thing to do. It's the extreme Bernie supporters that acted like asses.
But also, Just like Hillary supporters said that Bernie didn't do well to earn the Minority vote, (which I agree to a certain extent, even though I feel he was more principled on the matter than she was), SHE didn't do very well to earn our vote, even though I understood it to be the logical choice. "FALL IN LINE" is not a valid way to earn votes.
All seems mostly resonable. Everything contributed to her loss.
I don't see that going away. All nuance is gone.
If we've learned anything, the second someone steps into any office they become "a bitch eating crackers" to a ton of people.
I don't see that going away. All nuance is gone.
Ok sure, but Bernie winning wasn't the point I was trying to make. The fact that a large chunk of the voter base didn't get the candidate they wanted and all they had to vote for was a candidate that, by comparison, held far less of their values and was seemingly steeped in corruption had a very big impact on the race going forward. At least when Obama won the primaries back in 2008 there were very little differences in thier poilicies and Hillary voters migrated easily. In this race you had polar opposite opinions on how run the party moving forward and many Sanders voters became disenchanted.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
Bernie couldn't even win the nomination lol
vainglorious
Member
There's still over 1300 days left in Trump's presidency.
And aside from a very real looming threat against the ACA, Trump has already done lasting damage -
"The result was a historic reversal of government rules in record time. Mr. Trump has used the review act as a regulatory wrecking ball, signing 13 bills that erased rules on the environment, labor, financial protections, internet privacy, abortion, education and gun rights. In the laws 21-year history, it had been used successfully only once before, when President George W. Bush reversed a Clinton-era ergonomics rule."
Read this article
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/us/politics/trump-overturning-regulations.html?_r=0
sleepnaught
Member
Right, and never the electorate. They're just angels, aren't they?
TestOfTide
Banned
Short term sure, but long term it would have merely meant that another Trump-like candidate wins in 2020 when the negative spotlight becomes 100% focused on Hillary.
And again, Hillary wouldn't be able to even get a proper cabinet in place because the GOP would just refuse to confirm anyone.
Bullshit. Downballot vote share generally followed the Presidential ticket, which means that Clinton's loss correlated with the loss of several Democratic house and Senate candidates.
One of the Nates (Cohn of Silver) said on Twitter that the idea of Comey as kingmaker is entirely supportable. Clinton experienced a 3 point drop in the polls following Comey's letter, and she only lost by less than half a point in several key states.
Version 3.0
Member
A. She's right.
B. Go away, Hillary, showing your face any more does more harm than good. It causes bickering on the left, and provides a lingering rally point for the right.
B. Go away, Hillary, showing your face any more does more harm than good. It causes bickering on the left, and provides a lingering rally point for the right.
Earthbound64
Banned
Psychoward
Banned
It does, I'm also saying the country has a lot of crappy people in it, hence the satirical article.
Adam_Vania
Banned
nobody cared about the emails. if you hated Trump no emails were going to stop you from voting for Hillary. they are a convenient scapegoat for her, and they have always been their go-to excuse. it is a non-controversy, nobody cares about it or Benghazi but hardcore Republicans and they were already voting Trump.
i wonder why, if she was so awesome at foreign policy, and was running against this guy who she knew personally for decades, none of this Russian Treason Conspiracy came up during the campaign? either she was a politician to a fault, she held onto that info for personal gain, or there is nothing there, just like the emails. another lame excuse.
i wonder why, if she was so awesome at foreign policy, and was running against this guy who she knew personally for decades, none of this Russian Treason Conspiracy came up during the campaign? either she was a politician to a fault, she held onto that info for personal gain, or there is nothing there, just like the emails. another lame excuse.
To me she wasnt that person until she lost. I mean wow getting John podesta to tell the crowd to go home instead of doing it yourself and thanking everyone?
The question is "how does Trump compare to Generic Republican in alternate-world 2020." Lots of those EOs would have happenes in 2020 too.
And his utter incompetence at passing legislation suggests we may be less worse off on policy than in that timeline.
Maintenance
Member
I might've said something in the past but I'm over this Bernie situation, she won the nomination and that's it. Bernie wasn't spotless like many try to defend him, and that alongside errors cost him the chance. Now do I have the answer to what the dems should've done? Hell no, if I did I wouldn't be here posting.
Yes it does, and I agree with that. I'm not saying that the 63 million (?) that elected Trump are not guilty.
Yes it does, and I agree with that. I'm not saying that the 63 million (?) that elected Trump are not guilty.
If we are going to get into "If Bernie is so great why didn't he win the primaries" then you have to take into account that the Clinton name is a household one. Many voters didn't even know who Sanders was until deep into the Primary process and the Media was doing an abysmal job of compairing the two candidates. If Bernie was running against anyone else I believe it would have been a much different story.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I love how these folks never hold the voters themselves accountable. That's the shit speak volumes.
TestOfTide
Banned
Tell you what. You name me which Senate Seats the Dems would have picked up if Hillary won and if it's enough to change the senate hypothetically to democracy control, I'll concede my point.
Psychoward
Banned
I mean, you're basically using more reasons why he would have lost in the general then.
1) Bernie isn't a household name in comparison to Trump
2) The media did an even worse job at covering Trump in the general than anything in the Primaries
DontBeThatGuy
Member
I don't know who that is. Any suggestions?
This, 100% this.
excelsiorlef
Member
But that was literally the point you made.
You literally said he might have won in a total open primary system...
Psychoward
Banned
4 years of gridlock is better than 4 years of reversal of progress. Even now our best victories are "woo this shitty Trump/R thing got blocked!"
The Republicans tried their damndest to block Obama at every turn and we still ended up in a much better place than we were when he took office.
jack_package_200
Banned
ftfy
legacyzero
Banned
Well I recon he couldn't when the DNC didn't want him to, And actively acting against him.We shouldn't even have Primaries at this point.
Fenderputty
Banned
Have we all decided if Hillary simply saying something makes liberal angels cry yet?
This argument would have a ton more weight if the caucuses Bernie won were actually democratic
This argument would have a ton more weight if the caucuses Bernie won were actually democratic
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
ftfy
CassidyIzABeast
Member
Ehhhhh. You had Russia/Comey but Trump also had "Is is this guy forreal?" bullshit coming out of his mouth on a daily basis. Republicans blessed you with the layup of the century and you rolled it off the front rim.
vainglorious
Member
That's a big assumption, especially given the review act's previous history with Trump's current abuse of it. And the longer regulations are in place, even by executive order, the harder they are to get rid of. The main reason the ACA is still alive is because it's already been law for 6 years, it's got roots deep in the ground by now.
DietRob
i've been begging for over 5 years.
Oh fuckin stop. Your embarrassing yourself.
Psychoward
Banned
The mental gymnastics it takes to think that the main reason that Bernie lost by over 3 million votes in the Primary was because of softball DNC stuff and yet put the majority of the blame on Hillary for losing the GE (and still winning the popularity vote by 3mil) while failing to consider other factors.
Honestly? No. Warren comes closest and she's too old. Maybe Sherrod Brown.
Bernie's incompetence on policy was related to his turning off minority voters, in my opinion.
The RNC was all-but publicly directing super-pacs to bring down Trump. They were pretty much publicly talking about rules that could be used to steal the nomination from him. And he still won. Acting like the tiny little things the DNC did made it impossible for Bernie to win is nonsense.
TestOfTide
Banned
Except that those 4 more years of Gridlock would be blamed on Hillary Clinton, which would make it even easier for the GOP to win more seats in 2018.
Would it have been worth having Hillary win if it led to the GOP getting control of enough states and senate seats to pass constitutional amendments by 2019?
EOs can be flipped on a dime by the executive. Legislation can't. That's why the ACA is surviving while Obama's EO's aren't.
2Smashed4U
Banned
Bernie would've lost, and he would've lost badly.
jack_package_200
Banned
Is an intersectional socialist so hard to find?
Why even vote at all then if just in 4 years the other side will take over?
Clinton would have fought tooth and nail to keep progressing this country forward on so many issues that the Trump administration is working tooth and nail to dismantle. Fuck thinking that the short term doesn't matter.
Psychoward
Banned
So people can repeat "I told you so" even though Bernie didn't make it to the final stage and won't be young enough to run in 2020.
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