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UK General Election 2017 |OT2| No Government is better than a bad Government

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liquidtmd said:
I'm actually very curious about what tack they would take against Corbyn if indeed we got another GE in November.
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Well, a new GE would be without May at the helm of the Tories undoubtedly, so the narrative would become the new, pure, resurgent Tories, free of the influence of robotic, pathetic May versus the evil terrorist-loving communist socialist, innit
 
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One of the Tory should jump on the grenade. Call of any major decision like brexit and spend five years only working on stuff that nobody could really object to like finally working on that fire safety bill. Anything else will result in another snap election.
 
Joni said:
One of the Tory should jump on the grenade. Call of any major decision like brexit and spend five years only working on stuff that nobody could really object to like finally working on that fire safety bill. Anything else will result in another snap election.
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Most Tories are landlords and will not want to spend money doing up basic safety requirements. Maybe they will get the public to spend for it, at a push.
 
APZonerunner said:
Well, a new GE would be without May at the helm of the Tories undoubtedly, so the narrative would become the new, pure, resurgent Tories, free of the influence of robotic, pathetic May versus the evil terrorist-loving communist socialist, innit
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Yes pretty much it seems, and Hazzuh's post shows some are already there.

pZlbEo0.jpg


This is just so, so missing the point and superficial a take on the Tories underlying issues. Disgusting.

'May gone, woohoo Tories electable again' is just so fucking warped it makes the legitimate problems I have with Corbyn look tiny
 
liquidtmd said:
Yes pretty much it seems, and Hazzuh's post shows some are already there.

pZlbEo0.jpg


This is just so, so missing the point and superficial a take on the Tories underlying issues. Disgusting.

'May gone, woohoo Tories electable again' is just so fucking warped it makes the legitimate problems I have with Corbyn look tiny
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Tories are toxic, the parties ratings are plummeting alongside May. Yet they just don't get it, reading shite like this just proves yet again to me the bubble world they live in. No ability to relate to ordinary people, who make up the electorate. In all honesty had it not been for brexit and large numbers of ukip people switching sides purely for that issue alone, it could easily have been an easy Labour win at the general election.
 
corbyn is 'so, so beatable but not under the current banner'. what about under the banner they had 6 weeks ago when thersa may was unassailable and the tories were a sure thing to win a landslide majority? strong and stable wasn't a good banner? it was as good a banner as they could ever hope for. and the emptiness of their ideology turned it inside out.

none of these commentators have the slightest idea what they're talking about, it's all just opinion and sentiment mixed with the forgetful hubris of experience.
 
If May goes it has to be another election. People are not going to stand for anything else.

Also you can't just bring in a new leader with new policies if you didn't get elected on this policies ffs.
 
TechnicPuppet said:
If May goes it has to be another election. People are not going to stand for anything else.

Also you can't just bring in a new leader with new policies if you didn't get elected on this policies ffs.
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May got handed the Tory reins. High chances someone else will comes, play it more sympathetically and the Tory press will rally behind them.
 
I fired up Democracy 3 on Steam just before bed last night, spent a little while going through all the tutorials, set up Labour v Conservative etc.

Thought, I know, I'll plug in Labour's manifesto. Increased Corporation tax to 26% on turn one. Used up all of my political capital.

Turn two. Strikes everywhere, countries credit rating dropped to B, GDP tanked.

Don't do it! I've run the numbers, Jeremy - it doesn't work!
 
Real Hero said:
it's going to be sickening watch them act like whoever comes next is the saviour
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Whoever comes after may probably will act like the conservativers savior and make a bunch of mistakes while trying to fix may's mistakes. This will probably leave an opening for corbyn or whoever comes after him to win the next election
 
I know it's been happening to an extent anyway in light of the GE, but I'm fully expecting more and more Tories to explicitly pile every single perceived issue the Tories have solely on May's shoulders as they prepare for her to be jettisoned.

They must not be allowed to escape by making her a martyr
 
Nordicus said:
Saw this mentioned somewhere else, but the Grenfell fire really is May's 'Hurricane Katrina' moment
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What strikes me about that comparison is that is almost being too kind to May.

Hurricane Katrina was a massive natural disaster with a huge toll which was exacerbated by the US government's inability to react.

The scale of the loss of life at Grenfell is horrifying, and the stories coming from it are harrowing but the individual problems that could be dealt with right now (outside of the safety of other buildings) shouldn't be anything new to the government right now.

We regularly send the army to deal with those affected by seasonal flooding, and we apparently have contingency plans to deal with all manner of terrorist attacks, how are we so ineffective at rehousing and helping several hundred people in our nation's capital?
 
So emergency responses re rehousing and rehoming people have nothing to do with the national government or the mayor. It's all in the hands of the local councils as 'first responders'.

Rest centres were set up on time and running okay - I think part of the problem is that this happened in K&C, which has such low levels of social housing, so not huge amounts of place to house people. In fact that's an issue across London - even pooling resources as boroughs are doing won't make it that much easier.

I would also say, this is what's supposed to happen when these things go down. You aren't watching the services fail particularly. It's expected that after a major disaster that puts several hundred people out of a home that they will be in rest centres with care support for some days afterwards. That's what the plans say to do - it's the easiest way to care for people, to help identify casualties, to relink missing people etc.

I don't actually think we're seeing a failure of the support services post incident here. It's not a Katrina style disaster. The failure has been the decades of neglect and attacks by all levels of government that led to this.

(Also the army hasn't been sent in because there's literally nothing they can do. The building needs to be secured by experts so the fire brigade can do their jobs, the people are housed in rest centers and hospitals, there's no issue getting supplies through, no additional security that is necessery - what would the army actually *do*?).
 
I should say some of the piling up on May seems kinda unwarranted. She's only been in charge for less than a year. This is the result of decades of bad governance going back to Thatcher.

The conservatives are trying to pin everything on May in hopes they can make a clean getaway after they oust her. They shouldn't be allowed to do that.
 
Lol@some Tories trying to call the times cartoon sexist to deflect. When Team May reaches for that card you know they're in trouble.
 
Theonik said:
I should say some of the piling up on May seems kinda unwarranted. She's only been in charge for less than a year. This is the result of decades of bad governance going back to Thatcher.

The conservatives are trying to pin everything on May in hopes they can make a clean getaway after they oust her. They shouldn't be allowed to do that.
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She was happy to take unearned praise last year.
 
Maledict ;

Totally with you as far as the quality of response with the local centre, with volunteers and the fact that the army would be able to do very little. I know I mentioned about the army's support during floods, and I know that might have come across "oh why don't they just send the army in and fix everything".

The wider point was on our ability to respond in the wake of this and the quality of our emergency response plans. Anecdotal reports of residents sleeping rough on the first night after the fire and a perceived lack of response from the council indicates that these may not be fit for purpose and that May's response has become emblematic of this.

I'll avoid going too much into this because this is probably better said away from the election OT, but thanks for querying the army point.
 
APZonerunner said:
Well, a new GE would be without May at the helm of the Tories undoubtedly, so the narrative would become the new, pure, resurgent Tories, free of the influence of robotic, pathetic May versus the evil terrorist-loving communist socialist, innit
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I highly doubt that would work in any substantial manner. We literally went through that shit with May, she was extremely popular and Cameron wasn't even unpopular when he left. I doubt we'll get into anything close to May's honeymoon period with a new tory pm. Since most of the current issues are attributed to the party rather than just may who epitomizes it. If they ditch may quickly they'll likely lose the next general election but they may be able to recover quickly.
 
Alison McGovern's piece today gives a good insight into just how fucked up the whole situation with Grenfell is, especially post Lanakal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alison-mcgovern/grenfell-tower_b_17178536.html?1497690146

Principate said:
I highly doubt that would work in any substantial manner. We literally went through that shit with May, she was extremely popular and Cameron wasn't even unpopular when he left. I doubt we'll get into anything close to May's honeymoon period with a new tory pm. Since most of the current issues are attributed to the party rather than just may who epitomizes it. If they ditch may quickly they'll likely lose the next general election but they may be able to recover quickly.
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Their best chance for this would probably be Boris, but even that's a massive gamble. If people see though the buffoon persona and see him for the odious cunt he is, then that will be the end of the Tories for some time.
 
ibrahima said:
Maledict ;

Totally with you as far as the quality of response with the local centre, with volunteers and the fact that the army would be able to do very little. I know I mentioned about the army's support during floods, and I know that might have come across "oh why don't they just send the army in and fix everything".

The wider point was on our ability to respond in the wake of this and the quality of our emergency response plans. Anecdotal reports of residents sleeping rough on the first night after the fire and a perceived lack of response from the council indicates that these may not be fit for purpose and that May's response has become emblematic of this.

I'll avoid going too much into this because this is probably better said away from the election OT, but thanks for querying the army point.
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So without going into too much detail, I think part of the problem was the time it happened and the other part was the chaos and how to get information to people. When events like this happen, boroughs set up a BECC (borough emergency command centre) to manage everything. They set up three rest centers very rapidly from what I can see (that were then merged into one). The problem was getting that information to residents given the fact the building was on fire for far longer than anyone expected.

I suspect the issue was that front line fire brigade staff and police didn't know where to direct people because they were busy doing their actual jobs and trying to keep the area safe, and as people had spread across the borough (many without phones etc) they weren't able to get the information out as rapidly as they should.

I do know that there's no logical reason for anyone sleeping rough on the first night after the fire. There were rest centers in operation with supplies and staffing (we organized supplies from our borough that day, and I've had staff in K&C helping them with their arrangements). So if someone was sleeping rough on the first night it indicates they failed to get the information out as they absolutely had the facilities open to deal with homeless residents.

The enquiry will uncover all of this, of course, and I'm only commenting from the outside, but so far the response seems to have been fairly standard and according to plan. I suspect the issues might be from information being spread about those plans inadequately, and of course justified anger at decades of neglect from the local authority in the first place,
 
Feorax said:
Alison McGovern's piece today gives a good insight into just how fucked up the whole situation with Grenfell is, especially post Lanakal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alison-mcgovern/grenfell-tower_b_17178536.html?1497690146



Their best chance for this would probably be Boris, but even that's a massive gamble. If people see though the buffoon persona and see him for the odious cunt he is, then that will be the end of the Tories for some time.
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She's a good egg.
 
Feorax said:
Alison McGovern's piece today gives a good insight into just how fucked up the whole situation with Grenfell is, especially post Lanakal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alison-mcgovern/grenfell-tower_b_17178536.html?1497690146



Their best chance for this would probably be Boris, but even that's a massive gamble. If people see though the buffoon persona and see him for the odious cunt he is, then that will be the end of the Tories for some time.
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If they go with boris that fire cuts video is gonna be shared the shit of constantly and the tories could end up third behind the snp
 
Acorn said:
Lol@some Tories trying to call the times cartoon sexist to deflect. When Team May reaches for that card you know they're in trouble.
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The sexism accusations are ridiculous and a knee jerk reaction from the base to shut down criticism, but I'm not sure I like how some of the pictures depict her.

It's a small thing, but the 'grotesque witch' angle they've taken doesn't sit well with me. I know it's for effect, the one where she's cowering is an extreme.
 
I see the Tories continue digging towards the centre of the earth, she can't even get it right in a newsnight interview with Matliss.

It's so weird after Cameron, he sat around with Somerset underwater for weeks and still managed to come out looking good and (for bonus points) shift blame to someone else.
 
SporeCrawler said:
yes underestimate corbyn.. please...
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Didn't cause any problems last time. Parris just epitomizes the depth of Tory arrogance: it's not the leader, it's the innate hubris of the Party itself.

Whoever they put up is going to get monstered. It's not May, it's their policies and position, they are a busted flush NOT just the leadee5.
 
Lego Boss said:
Didn't cause any problems last time. Parris just epitomizes the depth of Tory arrogance: it's not the leader, it's the innate hubris of the Party itself.

Whoever they put up is going to get monstered. It's not May, it's their policies and position, they are a busted flush NOT just the leadee5.
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Someone like Hammond would still be dangerous, people are going to be desperate for stability if this carries on for much longer.
 
The tories are in a complete no win situation, they cant carry on with austerity as people finally now see austerity has killed people and they cant scrap austerity as that proves it was pointless
 
frankie_baby said:
If they go with boris that fire cuts video is gonna be shared the shit of constantly and the tories could end up third behind the snp
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In seat count it's impossible for the tories to end up in third.They would still win over 150 seats if they lost an election badly.
 
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