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UK General Election 2017 |OT2| No Government is better than a bad Government

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Spuck-uk said:
"Lets decide our immigration on the basis of the needs of our communities and our economy, not to the tune of the dog-whistle cynicism of Lynton Crosby or the hate campaigns of some sections of our press, whose idea of patriotism is to base themselves in an overseas tax haven."

"It's not good enough to be grateful to our public service workers only at a moment of crisis and disaster. They deserve dignity: the dignity or fully funded services, the dignity of not seeing their jobs cut and living standards fall." -

Corbyn is on that righteous indignation ticket right now, and it's wonderful.
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I am not really one to do this,

but Corbyn is the next PM. preach man, if he is in charge the UK is in safe hands.
 
QuicheFontaine said:
What?

Am I just confused as to what a grammar school is?
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A young child growing up in a middle class household where parents can afford educational resources and are able to help their children to learn is much more likely to pass the 11+. I don't feel that deciding childrens future for life at 11 is right

Of course, I went to a Comprehensive and I also feel that children who were never going to be academic didn't have enough exposure to other subjects which could help them to get into a trade, etc in working life. So it's not an ideal system either.
 
QuicheFontaine said:
Gamed? The kid still has to pass a test to get in right? Are they sitting the test for them?
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"Gamed" in the sense that middle class parents often pay for private tuition with the sole intention of giving their child a leg up in order to win a place at grammar schools. Children from poorer backgrounds do not have this luxury and are already at a compounded disadvantage.

It should be noted that I don't necessarily hold this against parents themselves for doing whatever they can to improve their children's life chances, but this is not something the government should be abetting.

And that's without even considering how wealthier families can move property in to areas with well regarded grammar schools, which is another form of "gaming" the system.
 
Bo-Locks said:
"Gamed" in the sense that middle class parents often pay for private tuition with the sole intention of giving their child a leg up in order to win a place at grammar schools. Children from poorer backgrounds do not have this luxury and are already at a compounded disadvantage.

It should be noted that I don't necessarily hold this against parents themselves for doing whatever they can to improve their children's life chances, but this is not something the government should be abetting.

And that's without even considering how wealthier families can move property in to areas with well regarded grammar schools, which is another form of "gaming" the system.
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Well the obvious solution to that problem is to have well regarded grammar schools in all areas.

Dougald said:
A young child growing up in a middle class household where parents can afford educational resources and are able to help their children to learn is much more likely to pass the 11+. I don't feel that deciding childrens future for life at 11 is right

Of course, I went to a Comprehensive and I also feel that children who were never going to be academic didn't have enough exposure to other subjects which could help them to get into a trade, etc in working life. So it's not an ideal system either.
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That's fair enough. I believe in the German system you can still move between "grades" of school at any time. Maybe they should do something like that, so the 11+ isn't the be-all and end-all.
 
RetroDLC said:
If I'm right in thinking that this Queen's Speech is to last two years worth of operational parliament...
1: The Conservatives expect to pass very little.
2: The Conservatives have only chosen to do things that place Labour in a position to support or otherwise be criticised.
3: Austerity still reigns and nothing will change for the better in any way.

I hope something happens next week that destabilises the whole Tory/DUP coalition. Working with such a staunch extremist party will backfire on them somehow.
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The news last night was the DUP were pissed off with the Tories "taking them for granted" and are hinting that they might not support them in the vote. I'm sure they will end up supporting them but it does suggest that their demands are more onerous than the Tories expected and if so and if the Tories give in to them, they may be unpalatable to the electorate at large and possibly, and crucially, to some Tory MPs.
 
Corbyn dropping bombs. He's really grown in stature, this is an A++ performance.
 
QuicheFontaine said:
What?

Am I just confused as to what a grammar school is?
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There's stuff I learnt at my private junior school about how to do exams and techniques that gave me an advantage against co-workers *20* years later. You just can't and won't learn that stuff if you're coming from a deprived background. It meant I got scholarship offers from several private high schools - even though self-evidently scholarships should be for those who can't afford it, not those who can but got extra tuition to improve their exam results.

Tutoring for the 11+ was exactly the same. It allows the rich and middle class to get ahead by using money. Now, you might not object to that, but the evidence shows it doesn't actually help your kid either. It doesn't help anyone. It's one of those common sense ideas that actually doesn't work in real life.

You'd be far better off just using the cash to shrink class sizes across the board (and remove some of the fucking exams).
 
Several features stand out from the initial exploratory work on the PLASC data- girlsare more likely to attend grammar schools than boys, as are children born in the first
four months of the school year (September to December). More striking, however, is
the large under representation of those eligible for free school meals (FSM). This is
still markedly so even when we condition on pupil attainment at age 11. Bright, poor
children rarely secure a grammar school place.

The results of our analysis indicate that selective LEAs overall do not achieve
substantially improved performance compared with similar non-selective LEAs.
Grammar school pupils do demonstrate significantly higher levels of attainment, but
those children not attending grammar schools in selective areas do slightly less well
than their peers in non-selective areas. In part this appears to stem from the crowding
of poor pupils into the non-grammar schools who do not want to apply for a place in the grammar school do not have to sit the test.

The minority of able poor children who do attend grammar schools do exceptionally
well. Hence there are two countervailing factors around grammar schools and social
mobility: Bright children eligible for FSM do exceptionally well in grammar schools
but very few achieve a place, even given attainment levels at age 11. It is likely that
this reflects greater efforts by affluent parents to coach their children to pass the
selection exam (often referred to as the 11+). It may also be that schools are selecting
pupils using criteria other than ability, as there is a grey area where high attainment in
the 11+ exam doesn’t automatically secure admission if there is competition for
places even after setting the pass-mark.
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In short, they're pretty good for the small amount of poor kids who claw their way in, but disadvantageous for the rest of the cohort who don't.
 
Oddly enough, some comments on BBC News' Twitter page on the Grenfell survivors luxury flat story are claiming that it was the Government taking action while Corbyn "did nothing", yet failing to realise it was done by the Corporation of London, which if unless I'm mistaken is basically the Sadiq Khan's office and the GLA; who did indeed seem to pick up on Corbyn's suggestion.

kmag said:
Corbyn has been surprisingly stellar with this speech. He's normally a bit meh in the Commons compared to the stumps, but he's dropping zinger after zinger and they're all pretty much on target.
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I'm wondering if he's still in campaigning mode, or if he really has evolved through the GE into a much more credible leader.
 
I think Corbyn just feels validated and comfortable in his own skin more or less, still looks a little awkward here and there but what politician doesn't. The media and other parties went to town on his history and values, it didn't work, all in the past now. Onwards and upwards. The only sad thing is the Tories won't give up power so the UK will have to wait a long time.
 
Spaghetti said:
Oddly enough, some comments on BBC News' Twitter page on the Grenfell survivors luxury flat story are claiming that it was the Government taking action while Corbyn "did nothing", yet failing to realise it was done by the Corporation of London, which if unless I'm mistaken is basically the Sadiq Khan's office and the GLA; who did indeed seem to pick up on Corbyn's suggestion.
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It was not the government yes. The Corporation of the City of London has nothing to do with Khan though.

Spaghetti said:
I'm wondering if he's still in campaigning mode, or if he really has evolved through the GE into a much more credible leader.
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Corbyn was always pretty good. It's the media sentiment that has changed.
 
Corbyn always lacked credibility because there were so many damned reports the day after he started wanting him gone and the Conservative party fed off that and knew they could just bat him back - and he knew it.

Now he knows he's got actual support - not as much as he claims to have, but enough - it's clearly freed him up to attack, which as I'm sure the Conservatives are aware, he *loves* doing.
 
Maledict said:
There's stuff I learnt at my private junior school about how to do exams and techniques that gave me an advantage against co-workers *20* years later. You just can't and won't learn that stuff if you're coming from a deprived background. It meant I got scholarship offers from several private high schools - even though self-evidently scholarships should be for those who can't afford it, not those who can but got extra tuition to improve their exam results.

Tutoring for the 11+ was exactly the same. It allows the rich and middle class to get ahead by using money. Now, you might not object to that, but the evidence shows it doesn't actually help your kid either. It doesn't help anyone. It's one of those common sense ideas that actually doesn't work in real life.

You'd be far better off just using the cash to shrink class sizes across the board (and remove some of the fucking exams).
Click to expand...

That thing kmag posted says "Grammar school pupils do demonstrate significantly higher levels of attainment" though?

kmag said:
In short, they're pretty good for the small amount of poor kids who claw their way in, but disadvantageous for the rest of the cohort who don't.
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Well, it says that they only do "slightly less well".

That whole thing seems to be saying the problem is not getting enough bright poor kids into grammar schools. Maybe we should work on sorting that problem out rather than scrapping the whole idea? The ones that do get in do really well!
 
Spaghetti said:
it was done by the Corporation of London, which if unless I'm mistaken is basically the Sadiq Khan's office and the GLA; who did indeed seem to pick up on Corbyn's suggestion.
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You're mistaken. The Corporation is the body that governs the historic City Of London; The Square Mile that was once the old Roman city and is now home to international finance. Their pockets are very very deep and they own huge parcels of land across the city. It's undemocratic, weird and so ancient there are no surviving records of its founding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation

The GLA is a modern democratically elected body covering all the London Boroughs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_London_Authority
 
Jazzy Geoff said:
Reports that Corbyn has really smartened up his act. Election has really forced him to get himself together.
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That's good. He already has his base who frankly do not care how he dresses, so maybe now he can claw away more Tory voters who need that traditional statesman style of PM.
 
QuicheFontaine said:
That thing kmag posted says "Grammar school pupils do demonstrate significantly higher levels of attainment" though?



Well, it says that they only do "slightly less well".

That whole thing seems to be saying the problem is not getting enough bright poor kids into grammar schools. Maybe we should work on sorting that problem out rather than scrapping the whole idea? The ones that do get in do really well!
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Since no-one has been able to do that, it seems a bit mental to go on a grammar school expansion until that's done. Since England already has a decent number of selective schools we've got plenty of candidate schools to test out the super duper new selection method, and to get plenty of data but we're still waiting.

And it still doesn't handle the issue that overall attainment goes down in the cohort who doesn't get selected to go to grammar.

And it still doesn't handle the political issue which says the majority of kids lose out, which pisses off their parents which is what brought them down in the first place.
 
Jazzy Geoff said:
Reports that Corbyn has really smartened up his act. Election has really forced him to get himself together.
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I don't want to get all anti-unity but, and hear me out on this, this is essentially Blair's fault. It strikes me as wildly implausible that somehow everyone on the hard left of the Labour Party was bound to be a poor performer. Instead, most people are poor performers until they had regular practice. This used to be gained from Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet experience - e.g., Blair under Smith, Smith under Kinnock, Kinnock under Callaghan, and so on. But Blair's Cabinets (after the first set) were an 'intellectual monoculture'. He didn't select people from all across the party, but instead only people who supported his line of thought. That meant when Blairism came to a dormant period, as all ideologies tend to do, you either had good-performing Blairites or unconvincing lefties, which put the party in a bit of a bind. Now he's had some time to cut his teeth, Corbyn has grown into the role significantly, and it's a shame to think how much talent we lost because Blair moved away from the old Labour mantra of a cabinet of all the talents.
 
Tories obviously hate the young because they won't vote for the Tories.You can tell how pissed off young people are when they missed the EU vote and came out in force for the recent election. Their future got taken away from them.
 
Beefy said:
https://twitter.com/withorpe/status/877178742946267136


The tory economic miracle. Wage growth since 2010:

Poland +23%

Germany +14%

France +11%

UK -10.4%
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I could understand Poland having that level of growth. Stings a bit when Germany and France have pulled off decent growth too though.

Crispy75 said:
You're mistaken. The Corporation is the body that governs the historic City Of London; The Square Mile that was once the old Roman city and is now home to international finance. Their pockets are very very deep and they own huge parcels of land across the city. It's undemocratic, weird and so ancient there are no surviving records of its founding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_London_Corporation
Click to expand...
Illuminati confirmed. This stuff must give David Icke a stiffy.
 
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