UK General Election 2017 |OT2| No Government is better than a bad Government
- Thread starter Jezbollah
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Dirtyshubb
Member
Fantastic speech, awe inspiring.
That payoff with the poem was perfect.
Side note, wanna watch his next part on left field but it's not listing that on BBC iplayer. Any confirmation would be great.
That payoff with the poem was perfect.
Side note, wanna watch his next part on left field but it's not listing that on BBC iplayer. Any confirmation would be great.
show me your skeleton
Member
labour/he's used it a lot, it's fucking great.
autumnleaf
Member
Oh no Paliament has been hit by a cyber attack. Quick everyone hand over your passwords, privacy, and rights so they can make sure this doesn't happen to the rest of us.
It's quite funny, the UK used to have quite a lot of influence in the EU as they had a counter alliance against Germany to provide broad opposition to things.
However once Euroscepticism took over our counter Germany block collapsed and Germany became the main voice of the EU.
So basically, we played ourselves.
Raigan5088
Banned
Billy_Pilgrim
Member
That's Shelley.
KimonoNoNo
Member
Eek, those sound like a quotes from Persona 5.
Jeremy Corbyn is Masayoshi Shido confirmed.
Samurai_Heart
Member
Is this meant to be biased for Corbyn or biased against? I genuinely can't tell...
BossDarkseid
Member
Which way do you think this article is bias?
RedSparrows
Member
If i were ruler of the universe i would forcibly educate people in the word bias and all its ramifications.
Yeah after reading the article it seems to just be stating facts in an unbiased fashion.
Really was an inspiring speech by ol' Jezza. I'm convinced that given more time, it would be him attempting to form a government right now. Lets us hope for round 2 later in the year.
Most likely crab.
Dirtyshubb
Member
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/23/brexit-stopped-answer-in-our-hands-leave
The guardian seem to be leading the way for the conversation of stopping brexit.
The guardian seem to be leading the way for the conversation of stopping brexit.
Good. I'm starting to feel like things aren't as hopeless as they seemed a couple of months ago for the UK. Yeah, it's premature, but Corbyn turned it around and maybe we can turn this around too.
Dirtyshubb
Member
If the turning tide for Corbyn and labour added with the ever increasing negativity about the consequences of brexit can continue at its current pace I honestly think we could get to a place where enough people agree its a complete shit show and cancel it.
I gotta have hope, it may be foolish but it worked for the election so who knows.
overplaying the hand imo. they need to wait & seem to have forgotten how wrong their pre-election analysis turned out to be.
i think it's plausible for brexit to be stopped if negotiations are a big mess and the economy hits the rocks next year, in those circumstances popular enthusiasm could falter and make doing that seem sensible.
but it really shouldn't be forgotten that labour did so well in the election by embracing brexit, unlike the lib dems who got squeezed out, and corbyn was seen as so persuasive as an euro-sceptic that theresa may's 'crush the saboteurs' line and popular policy to deliver brexit got no traction whatsoever.
Dirtyshubb
Member
I think that as more and more hard facts come out regarding the economic consequences of Brexit, remaining will become an option. Unfortunately it will end the political career of whoever makes the decision, so it will probably never happen. Nobody in power is willing to put the country first.
s_mirage
Member
The problem is, who's going to cancel it? Corbyn doesn't appear to be terribly pro-remain, and the Conservatives would be petrified to do it out of fear of the Brexiteers flipping to UKIP en masse (if it still exists). It'll only happen with a Prime Minister prepared to commit political suicide, and I don't see who that would be.
As more people become aware of the true consequences of Brexit I think public opinion will swing towards Brexit being a bad idea, but I fear that there isn't enough time for opinion to swing far enough to stop it.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Both very good points and ones that I fear too but damn it, I'm willing to let myself get hurt if it gives me a little hope now
jimbobsmells
Member
Cancelling Brexit will not just be political suicide for the MP / PM who calls it, but the party who calls it too.
That being said I'm hoping that the tide keeps moving towards us staying in or at the very least remaining in the single market & customs union.
We're about to move house. My wife is getting nervous about the future of this country & we're starting to think maybe moving to the continent would be a better call, even if it means a hit to my career.
That being said I'm hoping that the tide keeps moving towards us staying in or at the very least remaining in the single market & customs union.
We're about to move house. My wife is getting nervous about the future of this country & we're starting to think maybe moving to the continent would be a better call, even if it means a hit to my career.
If Brexit were to be cancelled, I don't think the government would do it unilaterally, for the reason you said. I imagine a no Brexit scenario would come from a government using changes in mood and support as cover to call a second referendum.
Just a word document with a title.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
The tide better turn, and turn quick if you want to keep the existing membership arrangements. I hope every day that opinion will start shifting against this.
Theonik
Member
Even if public opinion were to swing rapidly, a lot of the population is still committed in enacting the decision of the referendum. It only makes sense to at least try. To do otherwise would make a mockery of our democracy. There would have to be a significant change in circumstances or a party elected on the premise of going back on the referendum.
With the contents of "No deal is better than a bad deal, strong and stable"
Dirtyshubb
Member
I kind of see it like, let's have a fun, probably terrible analogy.
Imagine we have a vote on mandatory health boosters for everyone because we are told it will let you live longer with no side effects.
We vote and decide to have the boosters and within the first year we start seeing that it's actually making us sick and a severe lack of energy.
We now know that after 2 years the effects will get worse so the question becomes - do we continue down this path knowing it's gonna make living miserable but with the untested promise of longer life and maybe no more symptoms or stop taking the boosters before the cut off and go back to normal.
Maybe a silly way to look at it but it makes sense to me lol.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/24/labour-told-by-unions-back-soft-brexit
The demands seem to be growing.
The demands seem to be growing.
It's crazy how quickly things have changed over the last few months. So, I'm secretly hoping that, umm, everyone pulls together and is patriotic and makes enough noise that the ruling party sees sense.
Thanks for the soundbites, Andrea.
Theonik
Member
What you are describing though is a major change in circumstances. The effects were not known at the time of the first vote and corrective action is necessary. This is different since nothing has happened yet and people were forewarned of the consequences of making the wrong choice.
I recall the remain campaign warned people about all the bad things that are happening. That people chose to dismiss them is a sad outcome but the assessment that a significant number of people succumbed to lies is somewhat condescending, though admittedly the referendum never should have happened due to the complexity and lack of clarity surrounding the vote. More care should also have been taken about a vote of such constitutional consequences. But Cameron stlll did it.
I imagine that things might start to change if we start moving in the direction of joining the EEA/EFTA or some other form of soft Brexit. Such a deal has obvious attractions, but it's hard to see how a deal along those lines would be better than what we have now, and so public opinion might very quickly change.
Hard Brexit is at least a big change in our circumstances, but I doubt we'll have any idea of what the UK Government can actually do with all that newfound sovereignty until after we leave. If there was, lets say, a CANZUK free trade/freedom of movement deal ready and waiting for us, then that'd be something, but we aren't going to get that all negotiated and ready to go on day 1.
Hard Brexit is at least a big change in our circumstances, but I doubt we'll have any idea of what the UK Government can actually do with all that newfound sovereignty until after we leave. If there was, lets say, a CANZUK free trade/freedom of movement deal ready and waiting for us, then that'd be something, but we aren't going to get that all negotiated and ready to go on day 1.
90% of people are idiots.
Our democracy rightly does not take this into account, as there is no fair and impartial way to determine who is voting as an idiot and who is not, as you can often arrive at the same conclusion via idiocy or via reasoned judgment, depending on the question and available information.
That the EU referendum was predicated on lies is irrelevant, because if we knew they were lies then so could every person that voted Leave. Leave voters could have known that there was no plan, known that there would be no 'good' deal, known that the whole country would go to shit, and still have voted Leave because that is exactly what they wanted the outcome to be.
It's worth noting that as a Remain voter, I WASN'T able to vote for what I wanted. A Remain vote was a vote for Cameron's shitty little side-line deal, meaning my preference for closer EU integration wasn't even an option on the ballot. I'm probably one of the idiots for voting Remain, when I should have boycotted the vote altogether and encouraged others to do the same.
So, yes, "Democracy lawlz," but this is where we are. The only way to effect change on the process is through further exercise in democracy, be it by our MPs in the Commons, another GE or in a referendum.
Final point is that this only strictly relates to EU membership. Team Theresa could sign us up as EFTA members tomorrow if they felt like it, putting us in a worse standing politically but retaining the 4 freedoms and not buggering the country, and there would be sweet F all Leavers could do about it, until they got another chance to exercise their democratic rights by the means discussed earlier.
Huw_Dawson
Member
The problem with Corbyn and the single market is that he and McDonnell seem pretty clear they want out. Can his backbenchers - in particular his centrist backbenchers who he seriously dislikes like Benn, Umunna and Kendall - really manage to change his mind?
But what happens if they fail to? It's not enough by itself to cause a split or defections, and both would mean having to hold heavily Labour seats after having stabbed Corbyn in the back. It's suicide.
But the creation of the SDP was probably viewed as suicidal at the time...
BTW, on the idea that May will soften her approach - Cash, Redwood, Patel and other notorious eurosceptics (often in entirely safe seats) would cheerily bring down the house if she backs off from a hard Brexit. If she wants to do that, she needs to win a general election with enough of a majority to ignore their votes. That was probably the reason she called the GE. It's why I think a second election this year is likely.
But what happens if they fail to? It's not enough by itself to cause a split or defections, and both would mean having to hold heavily Labour seats after having stabbed Corbyn in the back. It's suicide.
But the creation of the SDP was probably viewed as suicidal at the time...
BTW, on the idea that May will soften her approach - Cash, Redwood, Patel and other notorious eurosceptics (often in entirely safe seats) would cheerily bring down the house if she backs off from a hard Brexit. If she wants to do that, she needs to win a general election with enough of a majority to ignore their votes. That was probably the reason she called the GE. It's why I think a second election this year is likely.
autumnleaf
Member
Labour have repeatedly said they want access to the Single Market. Corbyn doesn't want to leave it.
They also said they don't want freedom of movement which means SM is not possible
Huw_Dawson
Member
Everyone has "access" to the single market - but that's very different from being a member of it.
Corbyn and McDonnell do not to be *members* of the single market. They want the best possible access, but not to be members.
This is why you have MPs like Umunna, Benn and Kendall agitating for membership.
Corbyn and McDonnell do not to be *members* of the single market. They want the best possible access, but not to be members.
This is why you have MPs like Umunna, Benn and Kendall agitating for membership.
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