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[D i Z]

Violence will win you nothing.

It is not the way to fight these heartless racists.

Worked before.

 

[Syder]

scum

Imagine being this proud of such a shitty car



Imagine living that life

 

[Boke1879]

I hope someone has video of this.

Adrian Morrow
@AdrianMorrow
Totally crazy scene as Kessler, organiser of the white power march here yesterday, fled through the street, chased by a crowd of townsfolk

1:07pm · 13 Aug 2017 · Twitter for iPhone

 

[whyamihere]

I hope someone has video of this.

So much for the "tolerant" left

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Fuck off.

https://twitter.com/bullneck/status/896588788528328704

What a timeline. Nonstop shitting on Dems, then still vowing to vote 3rd party unless the perfect candidate comes across. He is a Nazi enabler.

3rd party is not a viable option in the US.

 

[Audioboxer]

The problem is that you have people in this thread and a few of the others who are not airing ideas or encouraging violence through self defense (which is a legitimate reason for violence!) but who suggest violence as a means of retaliation. This combined with this rhetoric that all people who voted for Trump are literally nazis along with the 90+ million registered voters who didn't bother voting are as bad as actual nazis for allowing this to happen, is a bad look that sounds like the extremism from someone who is deranged and extremist.
Furthermore it is problematic and counter productive to encourage senseless revenge based violence against conservatives and trump supporters in general because the emboldened alt right trolls want the left wingers to come out and fight them. They use attacks on conservative as a recruitment tool, and if you google "trump supporter beaten" you can see endless amounts of this shit already.

So we know that punching them will not do anything to dissaude them, and we know that it will feed into their talking points of white people being oppressed minorities who seek to ostrize them from America.
Showing white people being beaten by POC and left wing groups is the best thing that can happen to them. The nuance of the situation will be completely lost once the right wing media spins these stories and it will backfire massively.

My friends would go to anti nazi protests and throw rocks at them. They'd go on a bus with other anarchists and go down to germany and sweden and scream at the top of their lungs. And what I noticed about them every time I was with them, was how much they were just sucked into this hole. It doesn't work to engage with far right trolls.
And they are far right trolls. They wear the nazi symbols to be infamous and to get attention. I don't for a second believe that a lot of these have read meine kampf or understand it. Remember that Nazi ideology is a contradiction. It was heavily critized and laughed at by some of the pioneers of fascism, because Nazism is a bunch of incoherent nonsense. It doesn't make sense, which is why nazis are so fun to have as baddies in video games and movies and to talk about in historic contexts.

Clearly these people are shitheads, but it's important to reflect on the motivations of why they are doing this, what their objective is, and if your response would benefit them. It's not that they do something that should cause your immediate reaction, but why.
And that is the key. Because like with other forms of terrorism, they depend on guerilla style warfare of cowardly attacks. They cannot beat their enemy in the open, so they try to get them agitated that they'll get off balance and make mistakes in frustrations.

The US being baited into wars in afghanistan and Iraq are good examples of why not to take the bait. Shit just got a lot worse and the terrorists got what they wanted; lots of people hurt, more recruitment and they got a lot closer to their vision of united global war between the western world and the middle eastern world.
Instead of giving the alt-right what they want- I think the best defense the left can do is to mobilize. If they organize a nazi rally with 500 people, the left should organize a peaceful counter protest with 5000, or 10000, or 20000. For solidarity and sticking together and for protection and remembrance. There are many ways to show strength, be powerful and be engaging in political activism that doesn't revolve around revenge based violence or falling into your enemys setup.
Lastly, a previous poster said that other countries don't have these problems because they shut down nazis. This is not true. In most European countries, nazis hold rallies, they recruit, they have radio channels, they are allowed to exist. Just like we have quite a few hateful extremist fundamentalist Islamic group who if they where in power would hurt a lot of innocent people.

We allow these people to exist because our liberal views make us better than that and because our response to conflict is different. Don't mistake this for pacifism or think that this means we don't stand up for each other. You stand up for one another in self defense, but there is a time and place to strike. To give into bloodlust in battles that will only benefit your enemy is stupid and counter productive.

After what happened on the promenade in Nice, a lot of people wanted to throw every fundamentalist muslim who sympathized with the driver for the fucking lions. But we don't do that. Those people are the worst type of shitheads, but even they are allowed to exist and express their views. People have to stay their hand regardless of what type of fanatical hateful human being it is.
protecting people, is what matters most. Showing the contrast between the left and the right needs to be maintained. The comparison with antifa being a terrorist organization is a classic attempt to make a selffulfilling properchy. It's designed to make them come out and engage and inadvertently dox them to make them look they are.
It's best to show that they are not, and give the far right spin media machine as little ammo as possible to work with.
Violence through self defense, yes. To protect others from harm. Organizing and political activism spent on helping victims and union style protections that give various support, financial and otherwise to vulnerable people.

It's a false equivalency to argue that history proves that unmitigated violence is the best option. There is also plenty of history that shows that being absolutely disastrous. You have a situation where half the country is split, with a unstable government, and a far right media that is brain washing many millions of people. Don't think this cannot get a lot worse if hundreds of thousands of armed white people escalate. The outfall and the army and police being involved will be favorable to POC with the way the police and military is structured. It's a recipe for disaster.

I agree with the overarching points in this post, as apparent when I discussed violence and repercussions earlier. However, the issue facing America is unlike in some of the Western countries you could name drop, as the Government isn't doing enough on a legislative stance. Where are the watchlists? Where are the arrests for radicalisation? Where are the sentences? Where is the pushback to genuine propaganda and recruitment from the Government? The reason it's so hard to be out in the open and gaining attention in Europe is that most Governments would arrest or shut down radical movements out in the open. Yes, they still exist, but they are properly marginalised and shut down, so civilians aren't out on the streets carrying bats and knives and looking to fuck people up. We don't always get it right, and sometimes radical preachers do get to go on for longer than they should have. When we fail and there is a senseless loss of life we have to own that. However, most of our Governments do make the effort to act/prevent and will respond to the public when the public reports suspicious or radical behaviour. That isn't happening in the same way in America. Not at all. The Government couldn't even address this in a reasonable way.

The question is what is the answer to get the Government legislating and acting? Is it a full-scale civilian lead violent 'war'? Well, I'm not quite sold on that yet, and I do think some have been watching too many movies and playing video games. Right now as I said earlier I think it's apparent Trump is a terrible leader and the Republican party is showing what a disorganised and mess of a Government it will lead if in charge. Americans need to democratically eject the Republican party and whoever runs for the Dems needs to run on principles that for once and for all state they will look to challenge and hopefully amend whatever is needed in legislation to clamp down on terrorist organisations openly walking around in public and recruiting. Without a doubt that 100% has to be a forefront campaign lead objective for 2020 or I think 2018 has something. No ifs, no buts, no infighting, no nonsense. America has to change. Not slogans, empty promises, buzzwords or any politician horseshit. One of the supposed best countries in the world needs to make some changes to look after it's own citizens better.

 

[Kinyou]

They also challenge authority, and Hamburg showed that this was necessary as well.
I like that after the initial condemnations of the riots the german media mostly sided with protestors, against the police. (Which I think must be news to most Gaffers who aren't german because international media didn't cover beyond the initial reports of the riots)

We give a lot of authority and even guns to cops, its important to keep that power in check and if that takes the eventual provocation - so be it.

The Antifa is not supposed to be peaceful, calm and politically correct, their job is to shout down nazis and challenge authority. Thats an important job and if a few glasses break and cars burn in the process I think thats a fair price to pay for that service.

That sounds easy to say when it's not your car or business that's getting destroyed. All the good they do they could still do without hurting random people. That's why they have the reputation of rioters who just riot for the sake of it

 

[Jmanunknown]

Violence obviously isn't the answer, this isn't a military war.

If a lot of western nations can stomp out Nazis, White Supremacists etc. in the populace to almost nothing but a cowardly life choice hidden away for the few scumbags with policing, justice, laws then so can America.

Their lies the problem the western nations that wanted to stamp out Nazis, White Supremacy, hateful rhetoric, and violence did so because the majority of the populace in those nations wanted it that way its not that way in America. Racism and hatred even slavery are ingrained in the dna of the country and way to many people are too wishy washy on the subject for america to deal with the problem. America's problem is not the part of population that are full on nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups its the moderate people who straddle the fence and use the both sides argument like their lives depend on it. They are the the people who enable hate to keep growing.

 

[The Wart]

Yes?

Look, if their target list was entirely just "your_real_name_here" instead of "inferior races", would you feel threatened? Or do you think that maybe something could be worked out because they're not actually violent? Despite, you know, all evidence to the contrary?

"Feeling threatened" is not, in and of itself, a valid reason for physical violence. I can't believe I have to say that. If you want physical violence to intimidate white-supremacists into silence, then go ahead and say so. I think that strategy would backfire horrifically.

 

[Jakten]

I doubt anyone has the balls to stage an alt-right/nazi protest in Toronto, but I'd consider countering it. I've been to my share of protests. Shout them down by massively outnumbering them.

I thought this happened already. Either way they have no problem putting up posters constantly so I wouldn't doubt that they would have a protest or something.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

https://twitter.com/blakersdozen

Video of the press conference here.

 

[Crossing Eden]

the people who come around and say "violence never solves anything" should have never passed elementary school history.

Just the idea that they're in America of all places while stating that is ridiculous in and of itself.

 

[The Kree]

Being a nazi is not in and of itself an act of physical violence.

Ohhhh, yes it is. I will continue to think of it as such.

Or is "pre-emptive self-defense" only obviously dumb when Republicans invoke it?

Yes, because they do it for the wrong reasons. And if you're gonna pretend like you don't know the actual difference between right and wrong, and you wanna steer the conversation down a path of pedantry, you're useless to me. I don't care that you think Nazis have the right to eat lunch in peace. I don't care that you can't see the difference between self-defense and vigilantism. I don't care that you're scared. I can't be reasoned with on this. I'm never going to be anti-violence towards Nazis.

If Nazis don't wanna get fucked up, they should stop being Nazis. It's a choice they can choose to make that would benefit everybody.

 

[Clockwork5]

and the way is what

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

Are you going to drive a car through a crowd of Nazis in retaliation for yesterdays events? What exactly do you think that will accomplish? You aren't going to kill enough to actually do anything other than scare and embolden them. What is the endgame of the violent approach? Civil War?

 

[Switch Back 9]

I thought this happened already. Either way they have no problem putting up posters constantly so I wouldn't doubt that they would have a protest or something.

I've never in my life seen an Alt-Right/Nazi poster in Toronto.

Where are you seeing these so often?

 

[Deleted member 10571]

That sounds easy to say when it's not your car or business that's getting destroyed. All the good they do they could still do without hurting random people. That's why they have the reputation of rioters who just riot for the sake of it

Let's fight nazis by destroying this privately-owned kiosk, that store, rob that bank and destroy random lower-class cars on the way!

I got raised with my village's antifa as some of my best friends, which is why I am what I am today. I can't possibly accept or respect what the current people in it are doing. What they did over here has close to nothing to do with fighting nazis.

 

[17 Seconds]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

Are you going to drive a car through a crowd of Nazis in retaliation for yesterdays events? What exactly do you think that will accomplish? You aren't going to kill enough to actually do anything other than scare and embolden them. What is the endgame of the violent approach? Civil War?

they received the blessing of the potus

 

[Switch Back 9]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

After fighting several years of ACTUAL battles...

 

[Rock And Roll]

They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

Most notably, the president.

 

[Psychoward]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

Are you going to drive a car through a crowd of Nazis in retaliation for yesterdays events? What exactly do you think that will accomplish? You aren't going to kill enough to actually do anything other than scare and embolden them. What is the endgame of the violent approach? Civil War?

They received the blessing from the white house my dude.

No I'm not going to drive a car through them but I'm also not gonna fault people who assault them.

 

[jstripes]

I don't think they would stage a rally in my town. It's a liberal bubble here.

Next week, by the same organizers:

They're absolutely going to be targeting liberal centres. Holding rallies in run-down red state towns accomplishes nothing for them, they're preaching to the choir. Holding rallies in liberal college towns? They think they can infect the place, and can spread their ideas and recruit.

 

[norm9]

Let's worry about winning the battle of ideas after killing, shaming, punching, and eliminating nazis.

 

[Arrowgigantic]

Being a nazi is not in and of itself an act of physical violence.

It is a declaration of intent.

 

[Father_Brain]

What a timeline. Nonstop shitting on Dems, then still vowing to vote 3rd party unless the perfect candidate comes across. He is a Nazi enabler.

3rd party is not a viable option in the US.

Treating voting for Democrats as the be-all and end-all of political action is a large part of what got us to this point, so have fun with that.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

I know. I'm just tired of the question.

I'd rather respond with another question: instead of sitting around debating about whether violence against white men is justified for any reason, what does a "pacifist" think we should do when it's obvious that cops and the current administration empathize more with angry white men than any other human alive, no matter their position?

Off the top of my head:

Electorally
-Obviously, win back the White House
-Most importantly, this will allow us to get an attorney general, FBI director, and DHS heads that will prosecute far right terrorism to the furthest extent possible.
-More focus on elected positions that impact the justice system, particularly in local politics. Wealthy democratic donors should create a fund for backing challengers to, say, the top 10 most racist Attorneys General and Sheriffs. A little money goes a long way in these races, and like the tea party, once they're successful they can just use the threat of backing a challenger to gain leverage. This will make it more likely that local law enforcement will take crimes committed by the far right seriously, even in deep red territory.

Non-electorally
-Antifa should invest in drones for the next rally (Sept 11 at Texas A&M seems to be the next big one). Get face pictures of as many people there as possible, and turn what that one twitter account is doing into an operation, employing volunteers and paid staff (if we can get some donors for this) to identify the people who are at the rally and notify their family, employers, etc.
-Doxxing has been an underutilized tactic for antifascist efforts so far, I believe - in particular, emphasis should be placed on outing a few rank and file Stormfront and far right reddit accounts to make it clear no fascist is safe.
-Continue with massive counter-protest wherever far right rallies are held. Particular emphasis should be placed, for those who are willing to take the risk, of baiting the enemy into violent confrontation that is nevertheless unambiguously the Nazi's fault. We want them to be Bull Connor, unleashing violence on clearly peaceful protesters. We should be disciplined in not allowing the heat of the moment or the lust for revenge to cause us to sacrifice our long-term goals.

Obviously there's a lot more that could be done and is being done.. These are just a few examples of how, I hope, you can see that nonviolence doesn't mean passively letting the Nazis do what they want.

Your turn. How does violence fix this problem? Be specific, please. How do you think bombing the Texas A&M rally is going to go? Assassinating Richard Spencer? If you don't actually want to become a terrorist, how does cathartically punching Nazis and brawling with them on college campuses advance our agenda?

 

[mjp2417]

https://twitter.com/blakersdozen

Video of the press conference here.

what a cuck

 

[Lesath]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than the President of the United States, conservative news networks, and other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they "lost" yesterday.

Fixed that for ya.

 

[Psychoward]

At this point aren't alt-right and white supremacy basically synonymous? In any case, sure, let's restrict our analysis to people who have a swastika tatooed on their forehead.

Anyway, people are literally advocating vigilantism in this thread -- assaulting people who are not engaged in physical violence that threatens your safety or that of others. Like the guys saying you should go beat up a Nazi having lunch in the park. Being a nazi is not in and of itself an act of physical violence. Or is "pre-emptive self-defense" only obviously dumb when Republicans invoke it?

Beating up someone for being black as pre-emptive self defense is racist and wrong. Beating up a nazi who's trying to enjoy their lunch is being an American hero.

 

[Clockwork5]

Again. What does the violent approach accomplish? What does it do to gain support in the fight against racism and intolerance? What is the endgame?

Pragmatically speaking will it work?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

Treating voting for Democrats as the be-all and end-all of political action is a large part of what got us to this point, so have fun with that.

It's not the be all end all. But for now, it's the only option.

But I'm glad he has the luxury of voting for 3rd party unlike many minorities. Good for him.

 

[Not]

Being a nazi is not in and of itself an act of physical violence. Or is "pre-emptive self-defense" only obviously dumb when Republicans invoke it?

"Being a Nazi" is permitting the killing of nonwhite people. Period. Period. Goddamn period, The Wart. I know they're all white guys and they most likely look like you and that's got your empathy meter all frazzled.

But if you say you're a Nazi, that should be viewed as akin to an actual act of violence, along with the rest of hate speech. Cut that shit down before it spreads. Before more Heather Heyers get killed.

I'm serious. Anti-Nazi demonstration laws now. The line has been crossed.

 

[Jakten]

"Feeling threatened" is not, in and of itself, a valid reason for physical violence. I can't believe I have to say that. If you want physical violence to intimidate white-supremacists into silence, then go ahead and say so. I think that strategy would backfire horrifically.

Someone posted in the other thread articles from the 80s where they dispersed nazi rallies by throwing rocks and chasing them. It scared the fuck out of them and they cancelled the rallies. We stopped doing that at some point and where are we now?

 

[Psychoward]

Again. What does the violent approach accomplish? What does it do to gain support in the fight against racism and intolerance? What is the endgame?

 

[zethren]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

Are you going to drive a car through a crowd of Nazis in retaliation for yesterdays events? What exactly do you think that will accomplish? You aren't going to kill enough to actually do anything other than scare and embolden them. What is the endgame of the violent approach? Civil War?

By facing virtually zero repercussions as a group, they are continuously emboldened to get out more and more and in larger numbers. They aren't afraid to be public about their shitty ideas and beliefs anymore, because of the piece of shit in office who isn't condemning them. He provided them a soapbox, and now he needs them because they're the only group large enough to secure his reelection.

Are we going to wait until we see the reemergence of concentration camps before we decide it's finally bad enough? When friends and family members are beaten, killed, raped? Because just wagging a finger at them everytime they do this won't stop them.

 

[17 Seconds]

Again. What does the violent approach accomplish? What does it do to gain support in the fight against racism and intolerance? What is the endgame?

like someone said, go study up on your grade school history

 

[Slayven]

I am not for violence, but i am not going to spend my time defending nazis and chastize the oppressed to be nicer to those that would kill them. Richard Spencer catching hands did more to delegatimize him more then any "debate" ever has

People are chanting "blood and soil" and people are literally saying "lets hear them out" and find out out what makes them feel that way. Like this is some therapy session. Instead of something that cost 3 lives, and have many more fighting for theirs

At this point aren't alt-right and white supremacy basically synonymous? In any case, sure, let's restrict our analysis to people who have a swastika tatooed on their forehead.

Anyway, people are literally advocating vigilantism in this thread -- assaulting people who are not engaged in physical violence that threatens your safety or that of others. Like the guys saying you should go beat up a Nazi having lunch in the park. Being a nazi is not in and of itself an act of physical violence. Or is "pre-emptive self-defense" only obviously dumb when Republicans invoke it?

Nope we are not doing this, to be a nazi is to be inherently for the death of others. No one says their not violent by putting on the uniform of people that commit genocide

 

[smokeandmirrors]

https://twitter.com/YesYoureRacist/status/896713553666871296

Fuck off.

https://twitter.com/bullneck/status/896588788528328704

centrists only exist to condemn leftist movements and side with the right. best to ignore them. what they say is worthless.

 

[Ithil]

I hope someone has video of this.

 

[D i Z]

By winning the battle of ideas. Which we have done in the past.

With the events of yesterday, the Nazis did everything they could to destroy themselves. They received no blessing from anyone other than other racists for their demonstration and actions. Thankfully, they lost yesterday.

Are you going to drive a car through a crowd of Nazis in retaliation for yesterdays events? What exactly do you think that will accomplish? You aren't going to kill enough to actually do anything other than scare and embolden them. What is the endgame of the violent approach? Civil War?

They lost yesterday because people didn't give them ground. When they marched, others marched back. When they punched, others punched back. Ass whoopings held the line yesterday. If you aren't ready for that then stay where you are.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

This is fucking pathetic.

How the hell do you add to your ignore list on mobile GAF? I don't want to see that fucking avatar again.

Switch to desktop on your browser..

 

[Arrowgigantic]

"Feeling threatened" is not, in and of itself, a valid reason for physical violence.

No, but being threatened is. And there isn't a clearer threat than subscribing specifically to a historical dead end ideology that rounded up people and gassed them and caused a World War.

 

[Alcotholic]

I can't stop just feeling mind blown at the coverage of this. Is more than half of America really ok with fascism? I mean, antifas can get aggressive sometimes, because they are anarchists, but their message is very clear.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Again. What does the violent approach accomplish? What does it do to gain support in the fight against racism and intolerance? What is the endgame?

Pragmatically speaking will it work?

I got a game for you.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I am not for violence, but i am not going to spend my time defending nazis and chastize the oppressed to be nicer to those that would kill them. Richard Spencer catching hands did more to delegatimize him more then any "debate" ever has

People are chanting "blood and soil" and people are literally saying "lets hear them out" and find out out what makes them feel that way. Like this is some therapy session. Instead of something that cost 3 lives, and have many more fighting for theirs

None of the closeted bigots touting "B-b-b-both sides" seem to want to label the Klan and Nazi groups as terrorist organizations and treat them as such.

None. Not one. No one playing this "violence is so wrong, omg! This is why trump won!" would say the same thing if an ISIS member got punched in the face in America. They're ONLY treating this differently because these terrorists are not Black or Brown but White. It's racist as shit. It's a disgusting double standard that drips of privilege.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

"the market place of ideas" is such horseshit. it's for feel good "centrist" (aka conservatives) who want to allow dangerous right wing view points and to silence anything left wing.

 

[RMI]

As far as non-violent approaches go I think this one is actually pretty good. Not going to work for all people (e.g. Unemployed, people with shitty employers) but it is something.

 

[Rock And Roll]

"Being a Nazi" is permitting the killing of nonwhite people. Period. Period. Goddamn period, The Wart. I know they're all white guys and they most likely look like you and that's got your empathy meter all frazzled.

But if you say you're a Nazi, that should be viewed as akin to an actual act of violence, along with the rest of hate speech. Cut that shit down before it spreads. Before more Heather Heyers get killed.

I'm serious. Anti-Nazi demonstration laws now. The line has been crossed.

I can't believe how many times this has to be explained.

Nazis killed 6 million and would have continued to systemically murder millions more if they won. What is so hard to understand here. If you are marching around with swastikas and seig heiling, your ideology is pretty clear. Spare us the moral superiority schtick. These scum want anyone who don't agree with them dead.

 

[D i Z]

Mad props to the college teens that surrounded the statue during the Friday night Tiki torch polo shirt asshole walk. They must have been scared shitless, but they did it.

 

[norm9]

Again. What does the violent approach accomplish? What does it do to gain support in the fight against racism and intolerance? What is the endgame?

Pragmatically speaking will it work?

Killing nazis means less nazis. Punching nazis means one more scared nazi.
Nazis are a plague that won't ever be coming to the side of equality for all. It's opposite their identity. So what do you do? I'm of the belief that shaming, doxxing, taking away the benefits that American citizens get, punching, and perhaps killing them (I would never condone this portion, but I wouldn't cry any fucking tears). Do this long enough, maybe therely be less of these roaches out there in the open.

Fuck dialogue. Dialogue gets us yesterday, to an emboldened asshole running over people while nazis beat people up.

 

[Enzom21]

This is fucking pathetic.

How the hell do you add to your ignore list on mobile GAF? I don't want to see that fucking avatar again.

Dude always lives up to his username.