So those trainers who were arguing about the other stealing the other's tank top was about how the game plays?
God damn.
Come on, they're not all like that.
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Do you wish Pokemon had more logic and consistency in its world-bulding?
- Thread starter Common Knowledge
- Start date
So those trainers who were arguing about the other stealing the other's tank top was about how the game plays?
God damn.
Come on, they're not all like that.
Remember when the game told you the best way to play the pokemon experience was in shorts?
GuitarGuruu
Member
Pokedex entries are basically flavor text. They don't really mean anything although I do agree that is a flaw.
The lore is fine, they have the overarching creation lore with Arceus and Mew and everything else falls into place because of that. I do agree they could maybe go more in depth but it's not as important as the story at the forefront.
The lore is fine, they have the overarching creation lore with Arceus and Mew and everything else falls into place because of that. I do agree they could maybe go more in depth but it's not as important as the story at the forefront.
"Why can't these games make me wait several hours or even days for my Pokemon to heal and give me hunger, thirst, and bathroom meters to gauge while I play?! It's just not realistic!"
Am I getting your complaints right? Because that's how your complaints are essentially coming off.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I mean, we have people complaining why Wailord is "not heavy! fucking gamefreak" often forgetting that it's a blimp/balloon whale.
It makes you wonder about the people sometimes. Like do they even pay attention?
Yeah? well how come Wailord is the size of a npc when it follows me in HG/SS?
Check.Mate.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I thought OP complained about the lore and worldbuilding? Not the story.
I mean, how can Fire Pokemon get frozen? And why do some Fire moves not thaw frozen Pokemon?
Not trying to be a dick but it seems to me in every pokemom thread you defend the games, I've seen hundreds of your posts and I've yet to see you criticize anything but very minor things. Even when people have good arguments you tend to dismiss them. So what I'm curious about is what exactly dont you like about the pokemon games and what would u change/add if you could?
The existence of Pokémon Mystery Dungeon,
Also, don't mistake explanation for defending.
Nah, let me help you read: they just need to design buildings and environments and character interactions more consistently and realistically and immersively IMO, and they don't get praise for finally making basic strides 20 years after their first game. No one is saying you should file Pokémon health insurance, but a clinic with 1-2 workers and a magic countertop is lazy world building when the anime shows ambulances, ORs, and Pokémon helpers. None of these nurses even have lives or unique dialogue. It's just low effort. Makes the world feel dead. NPCs infinitely stand in the clinic repeating ad nauseum instead of going home to their families at certain hours of the day or whatever little touch might make things more realistic. The team sometimes adds touches like this to NPCs, but not consistently, and not until recently. I'd like to come in during certain hours and see a nurse off-shift at the beside coffee bar maybe making a comment about her day. Little details like that. The team doesn't bother with them usually. They like their soulless NPCs, mostly empty streets, and majority 1-room homes
Well my post was about more of your history rather than this paticular thread. I would bet my life that I could pull out hours of reading material of you defending the pokemon series. Any way, I got my answer so I'm good.
Emergency vehicles like these?
Does every place have that? I don't recall.
Or is it another 1-off example you're using when I'm saying it's inconsistent?
FutureLarking
Member
Pretty sure explaining everything away is defending. Sometimes things can be wrong, and it's not going to do much to evolve it or give a chance for a proper dialogue when we have such fans just defending every single thing in existence.
MildEverythingIsFine.jpeg
(Entirely unrelated but beople trying to defend the shit framerate and lack of 3D rile me up too)
On topic, I do wish they'd play up to the Pokédex entries more in the game. I understand it'd be complex to do it for every single Pokémon, but more playing up is never a bad thing. Especially for those in the regional dex, to properly tie them in to the region and their habitats. Baby steps happen here and there, and it's something that Pokémon games could really use to their advantage to make their games more unique and memorable.
Ryouji Gunblade
Member
Yeah, this could be the natural evolution of the series after Gen VII. And put it on Switch.
In the old games you could interact/inspect with a lot of objects in buildings, but in Alola, they reduced the number of them. The permanent Malasada channel bugged me.
In the old games you could interact/inspect with a lot of objects in buildings, but in Alola, they reduced the number of them. The permanent Malasada channel bugged me.
Again, it's explanation of reasonings behind things, reasonings I don't necessarily agree with but people take that as defending.
Moral Panic
Member
I think it's what makes Pokemon R/B/G one of the greatest examples of videogame design ever. It has a clear delimiter between what is gameplay and what is not, is doesn't hamstring itself by trying to be ultra realistic, but still understands how to use our understanding of the natural world to explain its gameplay elements.
For example, when you get traded an overleveled Pokemon it stops you - thank god the modern day "allow gamers to play as they like to make games as easy as possible" brigade didn't exist at this time. But how does it do it? It doesn't block you from selecting that Pokemon in your squad or go into an in depth discussion of how Pokemon evolved to respect humans, but instead uses our understanding of respect that needs to be earned and humanises the Pokemon by giving them a sense of agency. The pokemon may obey, or it might not there by balancing the game and putting a wall to discourage destroying the game balance. That is GOAT game design.
Complaints about dex entries and internal consistency mean absolutely nothing against the sheer superabundance of extremely well thought out games design elements in the Pokemon games.
For example, when you get traded an overleveled Pokemon it stops you - thank god the modern day "allow gamers to play as they like to make games as easy as possible" brigade didn't exist at this time. But how does it do it? It doesn't block you from selecting that Pokemon in your squad or go into an in depth discussion of how Pokemon evolved to respect humans, but instead uses our understanding of respect that needs to be earned and humanises the Pokemon by giving them a sense of agency. The pokemon may obey, or it might not there by balancing the game and putting a wall to discourage destroying the game balance. That is GOAT game design.
Complaints about dex entries and internal consistency mean absolutely nothing against the sheer superabundance of extremely well thought out games design elements in the Pokemon games.
Dangansona
Member
A bit, but my main issue is how they constantly squander the potential of the world of Pokemon portrayed in the anime with each lackluster skeleton of a story mainline title.
The only games that come close to giving the creatures and trainers the personality they deserve are the spin off games from the N64/GC era.
The only games that come close to giving the creatures and trainers the personality they deserve are the spin off games from the N64/GC era.
For one the anime isn't the main focal point of the anime. However, I do need to ask what game you last played?
In the anime, there are no turns, OHKO moves have regular 'accuracy', you can break trick room by kicking it, and type advantages are a sometimes rule. Let's say it again, THE ANIME IS NOT THE GAMES.
You also act like giving NPCs these advanced walking pattern is this easy ass thing to do when it's not. The world is shrunken and cuts out extraneous details because making a game that's 1:1 to the places it's based off of would be a major up in the amount of work they'd need to put into it and make for a much more boring, more vacant place to go through overall.
Don't act like your ideas aren't unreasonable just because they're unreasonable for a totally different reason.
Dangansona
Member
Almost all of them up to X and Y which was the last straw for me. I know I need to check out Black and White because they do a better job on the story front at least. But really I'm waiting until the Switch game and hoping it provides more compelling characters, individual pokemon, and side stories like seen in the anime.
But anyways, thats what I want from Pokemon. I'm not overly concerned with some of the things outlined in the OP.
I agree OP. Sun was a chore to play, even though the core battle gameplay was as good as ever. All the prerelease coverage led me to believe that Alola would be a lot more fleshed out than previous regions, but it proved to be just as superficial as the stereotypical french influence that made Kalos feel artificial and lifeless. I couldn't stand that stupid Malasada channel that was on every tv, it was an endlessly repeated tutorial for the affection mechanic that was itself not explained well. I'm not sure if the problem is the world building/lore, juvenile writing, or dated presentation, but it doesn't work for me anymore. They can do better and they'll need to to interest me in Gen 8, I've played at least 1 main game from each gen, except for 3, and it feels like they've been on a downward trend since Black2. I still love the series and almost all the Pokemon, but the games no longer click for me, especially considering how much other games have progressed in the last 20 years while Pokemon, especially when its storytelling/setting feels fundamentally unchanged and unimproved
You certainly explain a lot in defense of the games' flaws.
Honestly, X/Y is literally the only time since Gen 2 that the anime gives a more compelling plot than the games.
I believe Sun & Moon may alleviate your complaints.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
The series is incredibly archaic and only makes very incremental changes each generation. Its telling that when the series jumped to full 3D (X&Y) that instead it felt more like 1 step toward 2 steps back. There might be one memorable thing in each game - being a large post-game, well-designed Pokémon, Pokémon that follow you, an interesting region, an actual story, etc, but there is never a game that has it all.
I wouldn't mind some more logic put into it, but I feel like simply having more depth to the worldbuilding in general might be more fascinating to me. Fortunately, as much as I felt lukewarm about the region as a whole Sun and Moon's Pokedex entries are at least a noticeable step up in that regard, although I think it could also go a lot further.
I mean, let's look at Lucario's set of entries from these games.
I feel like Sun's entry for Lucario's normal form is a lot weaker than it needs to be, but the rest of them offer legitimate information about the species that makes for a lot of fun subtext. The main thing I think I'd want in this particular example is for the Pokedex fluff descriptions of aura to actually be demonstrated. The ability is less boggling than leveling mountains and being hotter than the sun, but Lucario is one of their flagship Pokemon and this ability is relatively rare and has some pretty strong implications. This is an animal that can sense all life in an area, identify what it is (presumably also no-selling illusions), and identify what it's feeling. Even if they didn't have combat skills as well, military and law enforcement would be scrambling to have them on call to locate hidden individuals and serve as living lie detectors, researchers looking for new Pokemon species could use trained Lucario to comb uncharted territory, and even ordinary social interaction for a trainer that happens to own one could be refined by the Lucario tipping their trainer off that a person they're talking to is feeling different than they're letting off. But instead we mostly just see Lucario as a badge of coolness for important trainers and fighting type Gym Leaders, with few nods to the actual ability set.
That's just one high profile Pokemon as an example. Now think of what they could do with several hundred others as far as giving them non-battle applications goes.
That said. . .some of the places this topic has gone confuse me. We don't see most of the infrastructure that exists in real life in our day to day lives, if a person wouldn't have any particular reason to visit a place during a journey with their Pokemon than the concept of conservation of detail in fiction would dictate it's probably not going to get covered. At most half of these things could be covered with diplomas on walls or minor nods in NPC dialog.
I mean, let's look at Lucario's set of entries from these games.
Sun said:
Moon said:
Sun/Mega Evo said:
Moon/Mega Evo said:
I feel like Sun's entry for Lucario's normal form is a lot weaker than it needs to be, but the rest of them offer legitimate information about the species that makes for a lot of fun subtext. The main thing I think I'd want in this particular example is for the Pokedex fluff descriptions of aura to actually be demonstrated. The ability is less boggling than leveling mountains and being hotter than the sun, but Lucario is one of their flagship Pokemon and this ability is relatively rare and has some pretty strong implications. This is an animal that can sense all life in an area, identify what it is (presumably also no-selling illusions), and identify what it's feeling. Even if they didn't have combat skills as well, military and law enforcement would be scrambling to have them on call to locate hidden individuals and serve as living lie detectors, researchers looking for new Pokemon species could use trained Lucario to comb uncharted territory, and even ordinary social interaction for a trainer that happens to own one could be refined by the Lucario tipping their trainer off that a person they're talking to is feeling different than they're letting off. But instead we mostly just see Lucario as a badge of coolness for important trainers and fighting type Gym Leaders, with few nods to the actual ability set.
That's just one high profile Pokemon as an example. Now think of what they could do with several hundred others as far as giving them non-battle applications goes.
That said. . .some of the places this topic has gone confuse me. We don't see most of the infrastructure that exists in real life in our day to day lives, if a person wouldn't have any particular reason to visit a place during a journey with their Pokemon than the concept of conservation of detail in fiction would dictate it's probably not going to get covered. At most half of these things could be covered with diplomas on walls or minor nods in NPC dialog.
Yep. As someone who has played since Red, it really is infuriating. Like I loved a lot of the new stuff Sun and Moon introduced (Totem Pokemon, Alolan forms), but they abandoned the perfectly fine PSS online system of gen 6 for the horrid Festival Plaza.
One step forward, two steps back.
Flying Fish
Neo Member
I would like to see more focus on the Pokemon and how they affect the world.
For example, most of Grimer's Pokedex entries state it was born from pollution, and it can generally be found near industrial sites. Does this mean that environmentalism is an existential threat to Grimer?
There's also the Canalave Library lore about the guy with the sword who killed a bunch of Pokemon, and they retaliated by killing a bunch of humans, causing him to freak out and abandon the sword. Why doesn't this also happen with things like Team Rocket running around? Are the Pokemon the bad guys use complicit as well? I wanna see the world building examined. And then there's legendary Pokemon like Groudon and Kyogre that are powerful enough to reshape the world...
I'm probably just overthinking kids' games though.
For example, most of Grimer's Pokedex entries state it was born from pollution, and it can generally be found near industrial sites. Does this mean that environmentalism is an existential threat to Grimer?
There's also the Canalave Library lore about the guy with the sword who killed a bunch of Pokemon, and they retaliated by killing a bunch of humans, causing him to freak out and abandon the sword. Why doesn't this also happen with things like Team Rocket running around? Are the Pokemon the bad guys use complicit as well? I wanna see the world building examined. And then there's legendary Pokemon like Groudon and Kyogre that are powerful enough to reshape the world...
I'm probably just overthinking kids' games though.
I always just laugh when everyone just thought only 150 Pokémon existed in the world. It's like, what about all of those lands around the rest of the world? Are you not gonna talk to them and see what Pokémon is over there? Do mass bodies of land just pop up out of nowhere with new Pokémon on them? I know they add them as the series go on, but it just seems like a massive hole in the lore of the series.
Canalave Library's stories are not supposed to be factual. They're myths and legends. People really need to remember that before declaring stuff like humans marrying Pokemon as part of the universe.
Holy Order Sol
Member
PokéDex entries should be some wild shit forever.
Lord of Ostia
Member
I'm not sure if someone has already addressed this, but the games have improved vastly in this regard over time. Houses have grown more and more consistent, with the correct number of beds for residents and living areas that make sense, kitchens, bathrooms, etc.
The Pokemon centers have evolved, they now contain cafes and Pokemon marts all at separate counters and have people chilling in cafes and hanging out as if they were public spaces. The sense of place and worldbuilding has only improved as the series has gone on.
The games still have a way to go in this regard, for example Yokai Watch does a much better job of establishing a believable town and sense of place...but it's only one town, or two in the case of Yokai Watch 2 where they reused the original town and added a new one. Pokemon has to create an entire region on the same level of hardware though, with like 12 towns or more. On top of that, Pokemon has a much higher level of interaction with the environment than Yokai Watch does. Pokemon is very impressive for the kind of hardware it's on, tbh.
Yes, they did something even more stupid by introducing a new type and retconning existing pokemon
Remember your pink pokemon from before gen 6? boom it was a fairy all that time and it totally was immune to dragon moves but it just pretended not to
don't they kinda touch on that when the pond in celadon gets poluted and you can fish grimers there?
They actually retroactively handwaved a whole bunch of the gen based inconsistencies by making each game a separate universe.
It was stated for opposite versions in Black and White during easily missed NPC dialog, stated for different gens in ORAS, then stated for both simultaneously in Sun and Moon.
So in the Red and Blue universes there may have been only 151 Pokemon, who knows.
Flying Fish
Neo Member
They're probably mostly myths, but that still doesn't explain why the Pokemon let antagonistic actions towards them slide.
Though to be fair, the Thrifty Megamart that Tapu Bulu trashed in SuMo is an excellent counter-example. I'd love to see more of Pokemon taking a active role like that.
Ooh, careful. You just pushed the Joe and Doggie button.
That Golbat you had in Pokémon Red? Yeah, it should technically have evolved, but let's forget about that. Also, remember when you used a fire type move on Gary's Magneton in Yellow? It was actually supposed to be super effective, but let's pretend everything is fine. Also for some reason Professor Oak gives you a Pokémon that is already evolved, but that's normal, right?
Lord of Ostia
Member
I mean, that's regrettable about Fairy Pokemon but it's also a change that desperately needed to happen for balance. All those Pokemon are now way more useful, and the Fairy type was a great addition to the gameplay. Sure, in that case they prioritized the gameplay design and balance over worldbuilding, but that was overall the right choice.
That's a bit of an oversimplification really
fredrancour
Member
I'm OK with the games making major concessions to practicality with things like scale. Modelling an entire country with granular detail isn't the best fun vs dev cost trade-off.
The constant suspension of disbelief over new Pokemon being introduced even in places where we'd surely have seen them before now is a practical necessity of making new creatures. So I'm able to just find it funny in context.
It does feel like we have three or four conflicting models of reality across the games though. The various stories behind legendaries have kind of felt like unrelated mythologies that couldn't share a universe. Buuuuut I've been sick of the save-the-world plots for a while anyway.
My biggest complaint with the series is still feeling micromanaged, though. Just let me walk without some npc yelling at me to go the other way.
The constant suspension of disbelief over new Pokemon being introduced even in places where we'd surely have seen them before now is a practical necessity of making new creatures. So I'm able to just find it funny in context.
It does feel like we have three or four conflicting models of reality across the games though. The various stories behind legendaries have kind of felt like unrelated mythologies that couldn't share a universe. Buuuuut I've been sick of the save-the-world plots for a while anyway.
My biggest complaint with the series is still feeling micromanaged, though. Just let me walk without some npc yelling at me to go the other way.
Yeah
They typically value consistency which people here seem to forget. Fairy-types had to be done and alter that, but otherwise they are good with it.
When a Pokémon got a new evolution, it was always through a new method that wouldn't have existed in previous games so as to not push the idea of "Why couldn't it evolve when I was playing ____". That's why Eevee doesn't evolve into Leafeon with a Leaf Stone.
I also believe it's why we haven't had any new evolutions aside from Sylveon since Eviolite was introduced.
That's literally how mega evolutions happened, right?
I forgot about that. It was a neat detail.
For all the criticism recent Pokemon stories deservedly get, I like how the setting is given more dimension with stuff like the abandoned Thrifty Megamart and Sea Mauville. Just like how a dark and depressing setting needs some moments of optimism, a bright and optimistic setting needs a few somber moments. And the failed hubris of mankind is as somber as it gets.
But then Fairy resists Bug because Gamefreak fucking hates Bug.
Oh well, at least they finally threw Poison a bone.
Suburban Thug
Member
The world doesn't feel alive to me. Cities don't seem like cities. NPCs don't behave like normal people would. They don't do a good job delving deeper into the relationship between Pokémon and humans.
The gameplay itself is solid but everything else seems stuck in the past.
The gameplay itself is solid but everything else seems stuck in the past.
On the other hand, do all those things make for a good game?
Lumiose City was the closest Pokemon has gotten to an actual city and it sucked.
Well I'm definitely open to having any details I missed pointed out, the whole progression of the lore in that direction kind of fascinates me to watch so I like knowing as much as I can.
As far as I can tell, each game roughly has the plots of every other game take place in it's timeline, but subtle changes like Pokemon typing, Mega Evolution, differences in area layout and character interaction occur. And then in the middle of it all there's also entirely unique universes also mixed in that contain the Ultra Beasts.
I've basically been working under the assumption that it's something akin to the Outrealms, just with any kind of cross-pollination being purely accidental natural phenomena or only recently deliberately possible instead of a gate system having already been set up ages ago. A bunch of worlds all running in parallel, but with just a little bit of butterfly effect gradually piling up.
That's a theory put forth by a character (who was batshit crazy and thought her pet Whismur was her dead child), yes, but that's far from concrete.
Flying Fish
Neo Member
I also like how Gym/E4 leaders in later games have jobs outside of the Pokemon League.
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