Do you wish Pokemon had more logic and consistency in its world-bulding?

Sure, but like many Nintendo games, whenever a gameplay decision affects lore, gameplay wins.

I like to think game worlds as something that exists somewhere somehow, but something built very carefully by a bunch of people enough to make it feel exists. I find inconsistencies due to gameplay fascinating.
 
batfax said:
That's basically my point. They've referenced them a few times, and things like "normal" fish were in the anime, but... are they phased out in favor of more Pokemon? Do they co-exist? Are they endangered because Pokemon can (and do) use them for easy prey? What's the deal with animals?
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Well, yeah. As the Pokemon universe grew and more water Pokemon became a thing, they began phasing out normal looking aquatic life for Pokemon fish and aquatic life because there's so much of them now. No reason to cling to that when there's almost 1000 Pokemon and more to see.
 
Finale Fireworker said:
I really love Pokémon. I’m psyched for Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon and have a card collection that cost as much as a semester of my college education. Pokémon has a special place in my heart; it is my ultimate nostalgic opiate.

That said, very few of the things I imagined the series would bring when I was young player have actually come to fruition. I think the best shot the series has is the transition to Switch. I hope it will inspire Game Freak to do something “completely different”. Sun & Moon was a great start. But I’ve still never gotten the game I always wanted.

Honestly, my own biggest gripe with the direction of the series is that it’s really leaned into the sci-fi aspects of the franchise versus the environmental fantasy elements. There’s so much stuff involving time and space and continuity and another dimensions and stuff. I liked Pokémon more as a kid because it felt like something that happened, or could happen, in our own world. I like Pokémon that live in forests and caves more than Pokémon from other worlds or outer space.

I know the science fiction material has always been there, I’m not a revisionist, it was just so much more understated.

There was a certain... humbleness to older Pokémon games that newer games don’t have. Everything is so much larger and less intimate and more cataclysmic. I like Pokémon better when the world isn’t at stake.
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I agree with this so much. It's like shonen power creep.
 
So I'm going through this thread and people are willing to jump on how for explaining or defending when people are trying to argue the handheld games aren't incredibly realistic in building structure and other pointless shit, even when games like black and white, x and y, and sin and moon address a majority of them anyways. By people who haven't even played the games since gen 2 and so they just end up looking dumb while also moving the goalposts
Lets not even mention that it wasent until the 3DS that could make these possible in the 1st place
 
Mr. F said:
This is a problem I had with Breath of the Wild in spots - specifically the suspension of disbelief required to accept that the small villages spread across the world were the hubs and centres for the respective races. "Goron City" is like 12 caves in a canyon. Zora's Domain is 80% palace and 10% market. The Rito village is like 5 nests. And the fact that some of the races hadn't interacted with each other despite the geography being relatively condensed. etc.
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Your thinking too hard on this,goron are rock people, zora are fish who live in the water, not the palace, rito village I give you that, was slightly disappointed in the area myself, and they interact all the time, sometimes it depends on the tome of day or not but you'll see travellers and merchants from different cities/villages pop up at different cities all the time
 
the gameboy games were better about this cause the old graphics let you abstract away all the idiosyncracies of Pokemon games, and only let in the stuff you liked

nowadays, Pokemon has a bunch of badly done anime cutscenes for story beats, instead of moving around the standard game sprites, so everything is super jarring
 
vareon said:
Sure, but like many Nintendo games, whenever a gameplay decision affects lore, gameplay wins.
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There are so many weird evolutions Gamefreak has done that are annoying to meet the requirements and yet remained as they are for multiple generations that makes me think the opposite is the case.

I think the only one they ever yielded on was Feebas -> Milotic, and that's only because they didn't want to keep bringing back the beauty stat if contests are not going to be in the game.
 
JoeM86 said:
More edgy plots like a mother discarding her son and daughter in order to bring parasitic beasts into the world that she then fuses with? With her company cutting apart Pokémon and splicing them together into a new Pokémon to deal with beasts?
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Pokemon needs to bring back the Gen 1 style of Rival, where you really had a sense of competition about doing what you're doing. Now it just feels like a generic 'we love Pokemon, YAY!' kinda thing. There's very little tension there, so with the main story, there's a big disconnect if it's even more sinister.

I think Black/White did it REALLY well combining the Rival into the Main Story, but that's really an exception rather than the rule.
 
I like the illogical, inconsistent world-building. To an ongoing franchise without a definitive end-point, it's an absolute boon. Anything can happen, and probably will. You can take the story in absolutely any direction you want. You could even set a Pokemon game in Hawaii and have it feature weird pseudo-Pokemon and also change some of the old Pokemon to look completely different, if you can imagine such a thing.

The entire Pokemon canon feels like a series of loosely connected urban legends. They just casually expect you to accept the most fanciful nonsense, and I love it. "Apparently, this Pokemon that people capture and train on the regular is a devourer of the souls of the dead" isn't a million miles off from "Apparently, this Pokemon once watched a woman drown and then Phil Collins wrote a song about it"
 
Tunahead said:
I like the illogical, inconsistent world-building. To an ongoing franchise without a definitive end-point, it's an absolute boon. Anything can happen, and probably will. You can take the story in absolutely any direction you want. You could even set a Pokemon game in Hawaii and have it feature weird pseudo-Pokemon and also change some of the old Pokemon to look completely different, if you can imagine such a thing.

The entire Pokemon canon feels like a series of loosely connected urban legends. They just casually expect you to accept the most fanciful nonsense, and I love it. "Apparently, this Pokemon that people capture and train on the regular is a devourer of the souls of the dead" isn't a million miles off from "Apparently, this Pokemon once watched a woman drown and then Phil Collins wrote a song about it"
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anything can happen but theres always the 3 typed starters, an obvious villain (eco terrorist?), an elite 4, a set of legendaries and a pikachu clone and probably an edgy bipedal dog pokemon :P
 
JoeM86 said:
How do they not put in effort?
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I mean, I post this in nearly every Pokémon thread about “what should be done with the series,” but continuing to develop the games with a “bare minimum” attitude as far as presentation, budget, and content go is becoming a little detrimental to the way I enjoy the games.

I don’t think a couple interesting side quests or a handful of good flavor text amount to a good effort on world building. Sun and Moon were a step in the right direction, but the effort to make the Pokémon world feel more “lived in” and immersive needs to expand beyond “there’s a book in Black and White that says Kyurem eats people.” The little things here and there are appreciated, but they are very very few and far between.

A few things I’d like to see:

- longer Pokédex entries (these are the most meaningful things they do at the moment for world building so they need to be more than one or two sentences)

- more detailed environments with better NPCs (started in the right direction with SM)

- more/detailed ways to interact with Pokémon outside of battle and Refresh

- meaningful side content with interesting mission structure/characters/interactions

Spend some money. Make the games live up to their reputation in terms of presentation. They aren’t doing that presently.
 
GiantBreadbug said:
I mean, I post this in nearly every Pokémon thread about "what should be done with the series," but continuing to develop the games with a "bare minimum" attitude as far as presentation, budget, and content go is becoming a little detrimental to the way I enjoy the games.

I don't think a couple interesting side quests or a handful of good flavor text amount to a good effort on world building. Sun and Moon were a step in the right direction, but the effort to make the Pokémon world feel more "lived in" and immersive needs to expand beyond "there's a book in Black and White that says Kyurem eats people." The little things here and there are appreciated, but they are very very few and far between.

Spend some money. Make the games live up to their reputation in terms of presentation. They aren't doing that presently.
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There is a difference between them not putting effort in and them not doing what the rabid vocal minority of fanboys want them to do.

You can't say they put in the bare minimum for presentation if you have seen Sun & Moon and especially Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon.
danm999 said:
Do any of the games ever touch upon the shady ethics of humans enslaving sapient life?
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Black & White do, yes
 
JoeM86 said:
There is a difference between them not putting effort in and them not doing what the rabid vocal minority of fanboys want them to do.

You can't say they put in the bare minimum for presentation if you have seen Sun & Moon and especially Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon.
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I played Sun and Moon, and even said in my post that they’re a step in the right direction. I don’t believe I’m a rabid fanboy for wanting them to expand the scope of the games’ presentation. It’s honestly holding the series back at this point. I’m not advocating the ridiculous genre and core mechanic shifts that I know you’re referencing. I’ve edited rough, small ideas for things they could do into my post.

And yes, I would still say the effort put into Sun and Moon was a tad lacking. The game was really insanely short and small. I can simultaneously appreciate steps in the right direction while saying the efforts ought to be stepped up more. Being as fiscally conservative as they are with this series is really a shame considering what they could do with a proper budget.
 
BlackDoomShadow said:
Yes, this is the entire plot of Black and White. The Pokemon are not being enslaved; they willingly choose to work with a trainer who cares for them.
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its a pretty detached handwave when you think about it though
Reminds me of the Cow that wants to be eaten in Hitchikers guide to the Galaxy "but we want to fight til we pass out and end up in hospital! we want to fight other creatures that supposedly cut us into pieces 10ft from where we're standing! We also want to live inside these small balls on your belt until you need us!"
 
GiantBreadbug said:
I played Sun and Moon, and even said in my post that they’re a step in the right direction. I don’t believe I’m a rabid fanboy for wanting them to expand the scope of the games’ presentation. It’s honestly holding the series back at this point. I’m not advocating the ridiculous genre and core mechanic shifts that I know you’re referencing. I’ve edited rough, small ideas for things they could do into my post.

And yes, I would still say the effort put into Sun and Moon was a tad lacking. The game was really insanely short and small. I can simultaneously appreciate steps in the right direction while saying the efforts ought to be stepped up more. Being as fiscally conservative as they are with this series is really a shame considering what they could do with a proper budget.
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I disagree here. It's nowhere near as short or small as Gold/Silver
 
lvl99 Pixel said:
its a pretty detached handwave when you think about it though
Reminds me of the Cow the wants to be eaten in Hitchikers guide to the Galaxy "but we want to fight til we pass out and end up in hospital! we want to fight other creatures that supposedly cut us into pieces 10ft from where we're standing!"
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Yeah assuming many of them have human or near human intelligence expecting them all to be content with doing whatever the human wants seems unlikely.
 
danm999 said:
Yeah assuming many of them have human or near human intelligence expecting them all to be content with doing whatever the human wants seems unlikely.
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By the games logic, they're capable of reasoning to the point of understanding Pokemon battles, but also they want to portray them as simple animals that eat each other.

By our metric most of them would seem to qualify as having personhood, but also completely subservient outside of not having enough gym badges
I dont really mind the contradictory nature of the pokemon world, I just wish they would stop trying to explain what doesnt need explaining.
 
M3d10n said:
People fall on the fallacy of expecting the franchises of their childhood to grow with them, when in reality new kids are born all the time to make up for those who grew out of it so there's no need to complicate or mature things and risk breaking the working formula.

There's nothing wrong in liking things designed to appeal to preteens, just realize that you're not the target audience and adjust your expectations accordingly.
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Very this.

I get the kinda funny "let's apply real world logic to this kids franchise!" thing, but it's pretty obvious that type of stuff is just handwaved because it isn't the focus and kids don't know any better.
 
JoeM86 said:
I disagree here. It's nowhere near as short or small as Gold/Silver
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I dunno, I took my sweet time with Moon and still found myself wanting more when I felt I was getting close to the end. The UB part after the E4 certainly helped, but I think exactly more focused missions and content exactly like that scattered about the main game between the start and the credits would be a largely easy way to make the campaign feel bulkier. I can’t say how it felt compared to Gen II since it’s been a bit since I replayed the originals all the way through. But I still stand by my complaint that I’m finding the games too much on the short size.
 
lvl99 Pixel said:
By the games logic, they're capable of reasoning to the point of understanding Pokemon battles, but also they want to portray them as simple animals that eat each other.

By our metric most of them would seem to qualify as having personhood, but also completely subservient outside of not having enough gym badges
I dont really mind the contradictory nature of the pokemon world, I just wish they would stop trying to explain what doesnt need explaining.
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I guess they should turn the setting into E-rated SMT to avoid these issues.
 
The world building didn't really bother me until Kalos. It had zero consistency. It was like a theme park.

Let's just add a random desert on the same latitude as the snow area... and let's put the autumn area north of the snow area...

At least Alola made sense? You know... snowy areas on top of mountains, deserts in canyons... Pretty basic stuff.
 
Flying Fish said:
I guess they should turn the setting into E-rated SMT to avoid these issues.
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Digimon works well because they speak English(Japanese)
Spinoffs like Pokken and PMD work because they act the same as people

We get supposed genius Mewtwo and all he does is sit in a cave and say "mew" :(
Id like to see something like Mewtwo being able to communicate or something instead of just being a braindead npc
 
I've always wondered about this as well. Despite the games being fun, some things about the world don't make sense, but it's Pokemon, what the heck. Logic is buillshit. Roads are poorly made with tall grasses in them but their healthcare for Pokemon is the best.

One of the things I've wondered about, is how other people's jobs work. Most jobs have Pokemon actively participating (construction, medicine, fortune-telling?) in them. How about jobs like being a lawyer then? How does that pan out? Do lawyers have cases about Pokemon abuse? Illegal Pokemon trades? Pokemon used to attack humans?

And how about guns? Do police force and soldiers use guns? Or just Pokemon?

I also like wondering about Pokemon eating other Pokemon. Of course that should be a thing.
 
OrbOutrider said:
I've always wondered about this as well. Despite the games being fun, some things about the world don't make sense, but it's Pokemon, what the heck. Logic is buillshit. Roads are poorly made with tall grasses in them but their healthcare for Pokemon is the best.

One of the things I've wondered about, is how other people's jobs work. Most jobs have Pokemon actively participating (construction, medicine, fortune-telling?) in them. How about jobs like being a lawyer then? How does that pan out? Do lawyers have cases about Pokemon abuse? Illegal Pokemon trades? Pokemon used to attack humans?

And how about guns? Do police force and soldiers use guns? Or just Pokemon?

I also like wondering about Pokemon eating other Pokemon. Of course that should be a thing.
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Yes there are probably pokemon lawyers and they should be made a class of trainer in the next games immediately

In my head...There are no guns in pokemon because in that world they never evolved a need for them, because they have deadly creatures instead. Which is also why when your trainer, some kid, beats these mafia bosses and villains, they have to concede because otherwise your pokemon can rip their face off. It's either that or everyone including criminals lives by the honor code of pokemon battles determining all
 
One of my main issues with Pokemon these days is that it is too bogged down by the past. (And no I'm not talking about the constant gen 1 pandering, that's a different issue)

It doesn't make sense that 4th gen evolutions of gen 1 Pokemon are hundreds of Pokemon apart in the pokedex, it doesn't make sense that baby forms of Pokemon are discovered AFTER the original forms, And they require stupid hold items and other conditions to be born. It doesn't make sense why the Nidorans weren't merged into one Pokemon.

It's dumb that they have to keep including Meteorites and DNA splicers and all sorts of legendary specific items in every game and now the megastones which are even worse and now only being given out via limited time codes

I think they really need to reshuffle things. Sort out the ridiculous messy pokedex, change some evolution methods, scrap silly conditions like having to breed with a certain incense, find a better way to change forms and distribute mega stones.

Basically just tidy the games up a bit. Get rid of all the unnecessary fluff and clutter. They keep adding more and more and absolutely refusing to touch the old stuff.
 
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