The state of NeoGAF

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This was the worst way to respond to this, in my opinion. The time took to formulate this response, coupled with the closing of OT and banning of social/political discussion...is not inspiring. Less transparency on top of that?

Not a fan whatsoever. See you guys.
 
Did you catch the part where they did have sex at a later date? Walking into a shower naked on someone is not right, but he backed off when told and didn't try anything later. People are blowing this out of proportion

Yes violating someone's personal space is totally blowing this out of proportion.
 
Dear mods: I got demoted to junior member because I made a thread about Chloe Frazer being the best character of 2017. I promise you my intention was completely pure as I was trying to at least involve some actual video game discussion into the board as it is being completely flooded by other unneeded threads.. May I get my Member status back? Thanks.

Bump bc I don't deserve being treated like this tbh I was trying to spark actual video game discussion :(
 
You can't cut out political discussion. Politics are life. Games are political. Film is political. Books are political. The world we live in is political.

Any time the conversation about 'cutting out politics' comes up, it's always about cutting out the politics the administration doesn't like.

I imagine a lot of the people whining in this thread would surely classify something like a 'Favorite LGBT couples' thread as overly political. But a fanart thread that is a loose excuse to post pinups of female characters? Not gonna track on the radar.

There are people in this thread who find acknowledging the existence of some people to be a political statement. They don't want to hear those voices.
 
I hope you can sort out the Off Topic forum situation satisfactorily and expediently.

"Came for Gaming, stayed for Off Topic" is a far too frequent sentiment around here, so whatever incarnation OT comes back as, I hope it can still capture that same attraction.

I found you on twitter, but it seems abandoned. Did you get a new one or do you not use it?
 
Did you catch the part where they did have sex at a later date? Walking into a shower naked on someone is not right, but he backed off when told and didn't try anything later. People are blowing this out of proportion

He's saying that talking about rape when it comes to the situation is ridiculous, he/she agrees with you.
 
I have a feeling this is going to fall onto totally deaf ears, but these are my thoughts on what needs to happen to this place going forward. I'm completely staying away from the human side of this situation, and simply talking about the forum itself.

There needs to be way more transparency, and way more communication. There needs to be an official stickies thread for questions/comments/complaints about the board, and there needed to be one years ago. If pride needs to be swallowed, then swallow it. There's been too much silencing of people's attempts to try to talk about what's going on around here, and this should be a simple concept, but the opinions of the customers should actually be listened to. Make one centralized thread for it, and don't punish people for saying things the management might not want to hear.

The community has to be welcoming to everyone outside of the extreme elements. Yes, that means conservatives, and republicans, and Trump supporters, and so on. I've seen tons of comments about how people love(d) GAF for being welcoming to women and minorities—and that's been a very important thing that shouldn't ever be given up. However, it can be welcoming to everyone else as well (again, outside of the extreme). The rule should be that people should be civil to one another, and if they are, then let them be here. It got to a point where conversations became the enemy here, and then not so long ago it became that moderates were the new enemy, and promised to soon be that the "not left enough" would be the new enemy. Stop letting any particular groups dictate the conversation on here, and stop the dog piling that occurs due to "wrongthink". Also, no more protected members. It's been clear that certain posters have been "favorites" of the mods and been allowed to get away with a whole lot more than other users could. Cut that shit out.

Cut it out with the passive aggressive mods. Stop with the shit user tags, stop with the smarmy ban messages. It got to the point where mods because like emperors flaunting their power from high above the peons, and that's unacceptable. However, shadow mods are not the answer. Modbot is bullshit, and threads should never be closed with smart quips from a faceless entity. If Modbot needs to be used, then have the balls to sign the name of who used it in that instance. Also, mods should not be decided when the conversation in a thread is "done" outside of obvious circumstances. Tons of great discussions in threads have been prematurely killed just because some mod didn't personally find it worthwhile. And for god's sake, don't allow any more deification of mods—a situation like Bish should never, ever happen again.

Have a clear and fleshed out list of rules, and if someone does something that's not on the rules list, don't ban them for it. That's bullshit. It's been impossible at times to know what would and wouldn't get you banned around here unless you happened to see a thread where a new rule was announced. And, again, ban messages should actually be clear about why the person was banned and what they did wrong, and not the chance for a mod to act like they're an action hero using a one-liner before taking out a bad guy.

Make the forums fun again. Have clear differences in expectations between official threads and casual ones. I totally think that OTs should be free from derailment and (unjustified) nonsense and trolling and all of that, but easy up a little bit in other threads. Let people be silly sometimes. Let the jokes happen, and require that people not be so thin-skinned that even the most innocent of joking around is blow up into some offense. Bring back those couple of smilies that existed years ago. Let threads like "Hot Men/Women" exist again so long as boundaries aren't pushed too far. Don't just paint over the entire forum with the exact same expectations for every single thread. And make "if you don't like the thread, don't read it" an expected part of using GAF. Having certain people shit up threads just because they don't like the subject has gotten out of control. Every thread doesn't have to be for everyone.

Speaking on that, keep politics out of most threads. Allow for threads to specifically focus on and discuss the politics of games or developers or publishers or genres or whatever—that should absolutely exist—but keep the politics out of threads where they don't belong. I understand people might not like the dev/narrative behind The Last Night or the fact that JonTron was in Hat in Time, but that conversation has no place in most threads about both of those games.

Getting rid of Off Topic is messy. At the very least, it should exist but be locked from any further posting. There's a lot lot of threads in there that were important to a lot of people, and just taking that all away from everyone isn't the right thing to do. Also, the policy of completely scrubbing certain conversations or topics instead of dealing with them head-on is something that absolutely needs to stop, but I have zero faith ever would.

Finally, banning anyone today other than those who directly ask to be permabanned is really, really not a good look. If NeoGAF is to survive, it'll settle down–but the venting that's happening today needs to happen, and needs to be allowed.

Those are my thoughts as someone who isn't sure if this is a place I can still support or not. But—again, personal human aspects aside—I think there is a chance to put changes in place that can make this place change for the better going forward for those who do stick around, and those who join in the coming days.
Well said.
 
Very disappointing that social and political issues will not longer be allowed. It was a place where we can have discussions without neonazis shitting the topic. There's a ton of people out there laughing that the "extreme/alt" left (in their terms) no longer have this forum.

I'll still stick around to see if NBA Gaf still exists, but man this is horrible news.
My hope is that gaf rebuilds, members cool down, and gaf remains a progressive, liberal, inclusive bastion. The "extreme left" though was a group that shut down conversation, dissent and dialogue. Its members ranking amongst the most likely to account suicide over this incident, because nuance and grey areas shouldn't exist in their minds.
 
I'm as liberal as it gets, and I certainly wouldn't be the first to defend Evilore, but let's not make the situation out to be more than it was. Tyler awkwardly misread a situation, but the internet is making it seem like he assaulted the poor girl. When a man and a woman are sharing a hotel room, and there's alcohol involved, and someone goes in the shower and leaves the door open - it's not out of the realm of possibility that a person could misread the signs and make a pass. What's important is that both sides agree that, when she made it clear she wasn't interested, he backed off and respected her wishes. That's the difference between consent and non-consent.

If every man (or woman) was ripped to shreds and had their careers ended because they misread some social signs, half of the country would be out of a job. It sounds like a misunderstanding that never escalated beyond that point. I don't see how anyone can equate this as a 'me too' sexual assault situation. Yes women need to be believed, but in her version of the story he made a mistake and backed off when she made that clear. That's all you can ask of someone in that situation.

This definitely feels like the spark that blew up a gas tank, but let's not make the spark out to be a forest fire. This is a real person's life we're talking about here. This is nothing close to a Harvey Weinstein situation.
This....
 
Definitely a situation mishandled regardless of veracity of accusations. Serious allegation requires serious quick response. Even if more on the way.

If alleged victim is "an ex" that should be easy to prove. So yeah... I feel evidence needs to be provided to deny accusation. The statement here just feels problematic and incomplete... Also, if neogaf is important to maintain perhaps temporarily stepping aside is a good idea. Hanging on to site now just feels off.

On off topic. Disappointing. But something I agree is mods were Moderating based on personal opinions. (alt right hateful bs should be banned, but many mods had overt political preferences on issues and candidates and changed topics, locked threads, allowed topics and banned users to according to their own personal politics, not facts. And not gaf is not radical left lol.

We shall see what happens.
 
If being alt right means not shouting rape from the rooftops and not automatically believing everything one side of such a serious situation says because of their gender then I guess there are a lot of alt-right people on this planet.

Often liked your input here, shame you're going all doom and gloom at this issue.
You'll notice by my post that I haven't touched the EviLore subject at all. His actions in response to this debacle have ruined this community, and not what he may or may not have done with that lady back then.

You won't have a hard time finding discourse usually associated with the alt-right in this thread - stuff that a lot of users have been keeping to themselves in shame for a long time, but now feel safe enough to spit out there. It's dishearthening.
 
Any time the conversation about 'cutting out politics' comes up, it's always about cutting out the politics the administration doesn't like.

I imagine a lot of the people whining in this thread would surely classify something like a 'Favorite LGBT couples' thread as overly political. But a fanart thread that is a loose excuse to post pinups of female characters? Not gonna track on the radar.

There are people in this thread who find acknowledging the existence of some people to be a political statement. They don't want to hear those voices.

The entire thing is very, very transparent.
 
How do we then reconcile the inevitable crossover between the gaming topics and the politics involving them?

For example, discussing something like Far Cry 4 while avoiding any discussion about its statements on right wing militants is doing a massive, massive disservice to that game and neutering discussion of its artistic merits.

Games are politics are games - at least to a certain degree. How do we reconcile this fact and find the balance?

Any gaming related topic that touched even slightly on identity politics always turned into a clusterfuck. Always turning them into an inter-sectional dick waving contest to see who could be the most progressive and find the most problematic points to bang on about, and not prepared to argue against slightly opposing points.

If the new mod team can foster a more friendly environment, open to actual discussion rather than name calling, then politics could return in the future. Argue against the point, not the person. Until then, if it's allowed back on the table, this site will slide even further into being a hostile, ban-centric place.
 
Who did you vote for?
I voted for Hillary, and the site of a few days ago was a regressive left stronghold. This new direction is refreshingly moderate and I applaud Evilore for making these changes. I couldn't be happier that GAF has a chance to become as amazing as it was in th 2000s.
 
All those declaring that they will wait for the facts should at least do some research and realize there is a pattern of behavior that goes beyond the most recent allegation.

Even if we limit it what he has explicitly admitted , Tyler has:

Spread nude photos of a woman without her consent.

Groped a woman's ass without explicit consent after buying her a drink because he didn't want to look like a "mark". He then proceeded to ban anyone critical of him and nuke all evidence of the event from this forum.

He recently went on a banning spree hitting long standing members for being too insistent that we believe victims and called their behavior witch hunting.

Please do some research and realize that this isn't a first time thing and there is a pattern.

I did my own research today and from what was stated it was that both persons were grabbing each other not one sided . I don't know more about the other stuff but that's a huge omission on what you said if true. A lot of people have to come to terms with being full right wing or full on left wing is not a realistic ideology. Every situation requires analysis not just talking pieces like a political character actor : Glen Beck ..

Personally I would advise gaf to hire at least a temp CEO , and step back. From someone who has owned a company for over a decade that's my business advice for a number of reasons.
 
Hey you guys who are pissed at EviLore's post, and were looking for an apology:

You're never going to get that. Even if he did what he is accused of.


It would be documentation of an admission of guilt, which could land him in real legal jeopardy.

He didn't lay any blame on his previous admins, and said that he didn't do what he is accused of. Boom. Done.

I don't like how this played out, and I honestly wished that Tyler would step away from NeoGAF.

However, I also understand that is asking someone who put a lot of years off his life into something that has become a lucrative worldwide entity to step away from it. I would consider that hard to do, as well.

I hope NeoGAF bounces back from this. I liked the community here.
 
I'm curious from the "misread the situation crowd" what message someone being sick and vomiting sends out? Is this the secret "I want you" mating call I'm not familiar with?
 
This whole thing is bullshit. You're all setting fire to your accounts out of a false sense of righteousness.

There's no assault here.

He left when she said fuck off.

Really bad time to present yourself. But ok... you hook up weeks later.


This is what you're setting fire to your accounts over.

Get some perspective ya weirdos.
 
Is this site gonna become another alt-right haven like 4chan has become? I hope not, but the way some people are talking in this thread...
 
The way this is all being handled is inexcusably bad, it's just a master class in bad executive decisions. There isn't much community left here, but removing the Off Topic forum because the owner of the website allegedly did something disgusting several years ago -- and was identifies -- is punishing the community for disgusting decisions that the owner of the website made.

Evilore, the Off Topic forum did not make you make the wrong decision or do the wrong thing 2 years ago or 5 years ago. The Off Topic forum did not make Amir0x download child pornography. Yes, the Off Topic forum exposes risk for your business (these three issues are examples of that risk), but the reason your business is a business is largely because the site has both a gaming discussion area (which I think is the initial draw for most members) and then an off topic area (which most members also chat in). I think most people here became members to chat about videogames, but then naturally, you chat about other things you're interested in -- sports, movies, music, or the really specific topics like the Black Culture threads, developer/programming threads, or the communities like WrassleGaf or NFLGaf. Punishing those communities because you or your former staff are exposing your business to risk with poor choices is not the right way to handle this.

There have been a number of high profile sexual assaults in the news lately, and while most folks are talking about Harvey Weinstein, Liberty Mutual -- the investment firm -- has also recently fired two employees for sexual misconduct at the workplace. It wouldn't be right for Liberty Mutual to say, "We're not having the company Christmas Party, because Christmas parties is what got us into this mess in the first place," or "We're not going to participate in social out reach because social out reach has made us look like hypocrites with these sexual assaults." No, because it's not The Christmas Party or the Social outreach program that's causing the problem: It's bad, hurtful, or illegal decisions made by you or by some former staff members.

You've always had a reputation for making brash decisions, and most of these have not faired well for you. Poorly thought out statements about Amir0x that bent the truth, came too late, and just weren't handled correctly; decisions to ban certain topics from being discussed; decisions to ban certain members or former staff, and scores of others. This, though, is clearly the worst decision and it shows in inability to accept fault. This decisions seems to simply be another projection: "I've made bad decisions in my life and business, and so the business must be punished." That doesn't make any sense, it's selfish and delusional.

You have an opportunity to make the right decision. Obviously you feel like this site is your baby and "it's your's," but this business exists in spite of you, not because of you. It can be hard for a CEO or business owner to give up something that they think is theirs, many CEOs resist this and are befuddled when their board ousts them for a business that they themselves launched. The right thing for you to do would have been to announce that you're taking an indefinite leave of absence from NeoGaf. Revenue from the site would be put into an escrow account to cover expenses and hire staff who would manage it in your absence. A board of staff (moderators, admins) would be formed to hire staff who would manage the site and support the community. Those would be base level decisions which would ensure, at least, some integrity with the site which would keep at least some members around. The site would persist and could possibly bounce back, ultimately you wouldn't be punishing your customers or your business for your own bad decision. Instead, you made the wrong decision with how this was handled and then continually made the wrong decision with how you're going to move forward with this, instead of holding yourself accountable, you're punishing the community that has made your business successful.

It shows an utter lack of self-awareness which then also undermines any integrity that you're trying to preserve against allegations like the ones you're facing.

100% agreed. This forum has meant a lot to me over the years, but the news coming out over the past few days and the handling of the situation has been completely unacceptable.
 
i'm a bit puzzled here. Seems like your saying that OT became to toxic because of politics taking to much space and being toxic?

Thing is, you're the one who pushed all of it though. Did you already forgot that time when you litteraly changed the logo of this forum in support of gay marriage?



Was it not an instance of politics taking too much space?

Seems obvious that you didn't really cared about this supposed toxicity in OT until it touched you and your bottom line.

Won't even acknoledge your "statement" about the ongoing allegations.

Jesus I didn't even know about that post. I don't really like that reaction.
 
I'm glad this place is back. It's still my favourite gaming forum, mainly because it's just that - a forum of threads and posts, with none of the needles social media/aggregation hooks of other sites.

That being said, the new management structure raises some concerns and questions which I hope are answered in the near future:

- If moderation is going to be anonymous, how will moderators be held accountable? You will need a process to review moderators and their decisions to ensure the rules are being applied consistently and fairly.

- How on Earth are you going to police political discussion? There are so many ifs and buts and politics reaches so deeply into culture and media that attempting to determine what constitutes a political thread is going to be more trouble than actually moderating it.
 
See this is just crazy. 1 idiot writes this and you try to condemn a whole website. How the fuck is this logical? Lots of recent OT members were like this. I just don't understand

Yeah, no, are you blind? He's not the only one. Every other post in this thread is complaining about "identity politics" and "SJWs" and the like. That was me using an example.

If that's the kind of company you want to keep then more power to you. Just remember where that kind of talk originated from.
 
I'm not taking a side one way or the other being someone so far removed from the events, but i do find the #metoo movement to be a slippery slope. Since when was trial by social media an acceptable form of justice? Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

I think in the future we'll find social media to be much more regulated in what you can or cannot say. It should not be so easy to ruin someone's livelihood without proof. Serious allegations should go through proper channels.

That said i in no way condone sexual assault or harassment in any way. It's vile and reprehensible. But this form of Facebook justice and public dogpiling based on one person's account (an ex at that) seems bizarre.
 
You know what DID fly here though? Going around calling everybody who didn't pass some gaf progressive purity test Hiter, a nazi, a racist, and any number of other things, usually with little/no justification. That flew here. And that was a problem.

Sounds like a ton of those people are leaving or have already left. That's a good thing.
But you see, that's the thing. Tyler let that happen. And he never gave any indication that he cared. Whatsoever. He could have stopped it. At any time. But didn't.

So why believe him at all now, when he says he suddenly cares? When he let that go on for months, with no indication at all that he cared for found it to be a problem at all? If this is how Tyler truly felt, he could have done something a whole lot earlier. But he didn't. He did nothing instead.

So why believe him now instead, that he suddenly cares about any of that? I prefer to believe who people are the first time.

It just makes no sense to do this NOW, instead of say right after or during the US election stuff. Why only blow up the OT now, in the middle of all this harassment-allegations stuff instead? Why were absolutely ZERO indications given that this was something Tyler was considering or how he felt beforehand, absolutely ZERO, if this has nothing to do with the allegations at all? Why now, instead of then?

Nothing about this makes sense. And if this is how you truly feel, that should only make you condemn Tyler moreso, and lesser. Because he had all the problem to do something, for months. But did nothing instead. Just let it happen, without any indication he cared at all.

Until now. I wonder what changed...?

Either way, how can you trust the judgment of such a man who's decisions and feelings just change on a whim like that? He gave no indication of that before. And if that's how he truly felt, he had no reason to keep it hidden. So what does that mean, not just for the present, but also the future? What else is he keeping secret? What other huge changes can happen on a moment's notice?

If that was how he truly felt about he OT, there was no reason not to be more forward about it. He had all the ability to. It's his sight. But he did nothing instead. Until now. Suddenly, all at once. In the middle of something completely unrelated.

That doesn't sound like good judgment to me. Just keeping something like that all bottled up, for days upon days, weeks upon weeks, months upon months, until it all boils out an once. Why not do something sooner? Why not at least give an indication, a warning that things need to change, ANYTHING, ANYTHING AT ALL, that things need to change in the OT, if that's how he felt?

Why now, instead? How can you trust the judgment of a man who hesitated so much, if that's how you truly feel? How can you be sure he won't hesitate again?

This just doesn't make sense at all, and I can not possibly be satisfied with such an illogical response.
 
I don’t doubt that there were plenty of extremist instances. We are sort of living in an “extremist” era, where people are more politically divided than ever. Removing OT because “politics” is not going to change that. It will just bleed over to Gaming side. Look no further than this year’s Wolfenstein to sort of get an idea for whats in store.



That is a fact.

It’s time to pick a side. The lines are beign drawn whether you like it or not. Indecision will mean others will decide for you. I myself am on the side opposite Trump and Trump supporters. You gotta make your own choice.

Bullshit. There are many places to discuss politics that are setup to discuss politics. The vast majority of off topic being political on a gaming forum is not why a lot of us are here. If you want to discuss politics there are many places to go, and I myself generally dont want it creeping into every movie or game topic I read. If I want to read up on current politics I can make that decision to do so at my discretion. Now Im not against there being no relevant political discussion, but to basically make the statement. Dont want to talk politics in a non political topic tough shit, is asinine. If you are that desperate to talk to like minded individuals about politics then I would prefer it happen in a specific topic on it, or a message board designed about talking about politics. and not shitting up the off topic with 100 trump threads per day. I really do think he should reconsider political discussion, but primarily limit it to topics about it. So those of you that want to talk politics nonstop can do so with like minded individuals.
 
I'm as liberal as it gets, and I certainly wouldn't be the first to defend Evilore, but let's not make the situation out to be more than it was. Tyler awkwardly misread a situation, but the internet is making it seem like he assaulted the poor girl. When a man and a woman are sharing a hotel room, and there's alcohol involved, and someone goes in the shower and leaves the door open - it's not out of the realm of possibility that a person could misread the signs and make a pass. What's important is that both sides agree that, when she made it clear she wasn't interested, he backed off and respected her wishes. That's the difference between consent and non-consent.

If every man (or woman) was ripped to shreds and had their careers ended because they misread some social signs, half of the country would be out of a job. It sounds like a misunderstanding that never escalated beyond that point. I don't see how anyone can equate this as a 'me too' sexual assault situation. Yes women need to be believed, but in her version of the story he made a mistake and backed off when she made that clear. That's all you can ask of someone in that situation.

This definitely feels like the spark that blew up a gas tank, but let's not make the spark out to be a forest fire. This is a real person's life we're talking about here. This is nothing close to a Harvey Weinstein situation.

That’s how I read the situation as well. A man and a woman traveling, sharing a hotel room and drinking in the hotel room? There’s more to that than meets the eye. I am pretty amazed at the sensationalization going on here.

Not so sure about the past allegations though.
 
i'm a bit puzzled here. Seems like your saying that OT became to toxic because of politics taking to much space and being toxic?

Thing is, you're the one who pushed all of it though. Did you already forgot that time when you litteraly changed the logo of this forum in support of gay marriage?



Was it not an instance of politics taking too much space?

Seems obvious that you didn't really cared about this supposed toxicity in OT until it touched you and your bottom line.

Won't even acknoledge your "statement" about the ongoing allegations.

Incredible how many people like that just stuck around for that long.

People can change their views and actions. Do you expect people to never make mistake and when they do then can't admit it? My point is, maybe he was at fault for that, but clearly he's recognizing there was issue there that needs fixing.
 
Tyler was very brave to speak up about his side of the story but you're all throwing it back at his face...
Pretty common for GAF. He's always been the bearer of bad news, thread closings, uppity ultimatums, and the guy everybody loves to hate.

I still remember how livid I was over the Iwata statement.
 
Are you being serious? Do you really not understand his point? When this went down among the genuine disgust from people the secret alt right members and burner accounts came out strong to fan the flames. They felt accomplished and were posting nonsensical threads to get a rise basking in the lack of moderation..as some still are.

What does that have to do with politics and the state of OT for the better part of a year has Evilore is stating in his post?

People can change their views and actions. Do you expect people to never make mistake and when they do then can't admit it? My point is, maybe he was at fault for that, but clearly he's recognizing there was issue there that needs fixing.

He didn't admit to anything though, it's the community's fault apparently and it took him being "the victim" to change his policies.
 
I'm as liberal as it gets, and I certainly wouldn't be the first to defend Evilore, but let's not make the situation out to be more than it was. Tyler awkwardly misread a situation, but the internet is making it seem like he assaulted the poor girl. When a man and a woman are sharing a hotel room, and there's alcohol involved, and someone goes in the shower and leaves the door open - it's not out of the realm of possibility that a person could misread the signs and make a pass. What's important is that both sides agree that, when she made it clear she wasn't interested, he backed off and respected her wishes. That's the difference between consent and non-consent.

If every man (or woman) was ripped to shreds and had their careers ended because they misread some social signs, half of the country would be out of a job. It sounds like a misunderstanding that never escalated beyond that point. I don't see how anyone can equate this as a 'me too' sexual assault situation. Yes women need to be believed, but in her version of the story he made a mistake and backed off when she made that clear. That's all you can ask of someone in that situation.

This definitely feels like the spark that blew up a gas tank, but let's not make the spark out to be a forest fire. This is a real person's life we're talking about here. This is nothing close to a Harvey Weinstein situation.

Isn't Evilore saying the described situation didn't even happen in the first place?
 
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