Notice how many hoops you have to jump through to come to your conclusion. His is quite simple, and far more rational; The positions you ascribe to the the original poster who got banned dont follow from the question he posed. You need to assume so much to get to your position, and with every additional assumption comes a exponential decrease in the probably of you being right, and thats what you think should be a solid basis for outright banning individuals, rather than just ask for elaboration? This is a textbook case of an ad hoc argument, and you are looking like an absolute conspiracy nut.
The state of NeoGAF
- Thread starter EviLore
- Start date
- Status
Notice how many hoops you have to jump through to come to your conclusion. His is quite simple, and far more rational; The positions you ascribe to the the original poster who got banned dont follow from the question he posed. You need to assume so much to get to your position, and with every additional assumption comes a exponential decrease in the probably of you being right, and thats what you think should be a solid basis for outright banning individuals, rather than just ask for elaboration? This is a textbook case of an ad hoc argument, and you are looking like an absolute conspiracy nut.
JordanN
Banned
I had a post on Saturday that's now gone, but I definitely remember Modbot/Evilore saying that people needed to quell the shitposts before he could get the statement out (which now makes sense because the shitposts and the attention it drew was slowing down the site).
I replied that if the mod team was aware and was not backing out from a statement, that panicking was not a good idea. But a las, look at where the rebellion got us now. :/
Mahadev
Member
Let's not also forget that there are a lot of young people in these forums that want to learn by asking questions, or have doubts, or hell, they're Trump supporters that are curious about leftist issues or how we see things.
When they ask a question or have a doubt and they get treated with an avalanche of obnoxiousness like the one you describe and since GAF pretends to represent the left (even though in it majority it's neoliberal) guess where they often gonna turn. To the people that have made politics entertainment and memes, to places like the_donald.
I need to stress this to people who act like that to their perceived "enemies": You're not helping, consciously or not you're only doing this to feel good about yourselves and be congratulated by others in your tribe.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
What is there to assume?
Dude does something against the thread's rules and gets banned.
Like, the rules were pretty obvious.
You don't have to dig far for to know why people throw barbs. It aint rocket science when you see it daily.
I don't know how to use google cache but again there's that thread about the Steven Bannon interview that I think has a good example of that. People kept posting more and more about how awful Steve Bannon looked. Then when people said "Hey, can we talk about something else? Like the things he said?" people got really defensive and started saying they were surprised that people were mad there was pages talking about how Steve Bannon is an ugly motherfucker and that people were trying to defend Bannon. One person tried to claim that everyone was saying Bannon was being bullied which no on ever said.
So if you can explain how to find those NeoGAF threads even now I can look in there and see what I can find.
Conversely - it's not our fucking job to educate you.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Question: what were Bannon's points? I can guarantee you they were rooted in hate. The question comes... why even argue his points? What good comes from arguing whether or not he has a valid point when the answer is he doesn't?
I cant do that, all I can say is that it happened to me on that thread about whether or not it is ok to make silly black/white/asian/whatever jokes in the confines of your company. And I said that in my company which is pretty abundant in different ethnicities and races we tend to make such jokes over a beer or to.
And I was instantly called a racist. By numerous people. From one single post. People were able to make assumptions about me and calling me names.
I tried to present my arguments and I did but it was so damn overwhelming and I literally felt harassed to the point were these people were specifically just trying to lead me to a ban or something. It was disgusting.
And that wasnt the only occasion too.
Use wayback machine, though it might take awhile to find an example
Yeah because what you have described is - gasp - fucking racist.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
You were making racist jokes and you thought you weren't racist?
Like, do you even hear yourself? Hopefully you compare yourself to Louis C.K or something. That'd be grand.
I don't know, the thread went from "Bannon Looks like a disgusting human being" to "Why are you defending Bannon?? This is a legitimate discussion! I want to talk about how ugly he looks dammit! Let me have my fun you Bannon apologist!" in the parts I saw and that was for at least a couple pages.
Personally, I wanted to see if he was angry at Trump and if their was going to be a lot of tension between Breitbart and the current administration falling Bannon's departure. I also really wanted to talk about it with people on NeoGaf.
autoduelist
Member
Yeah, that must be it, right? Clearly I have no idea of our legal system or the concept of private ownership. You think i haven't read a post about how this forum is privately owned before? Your post is xerox of a thousand others, just another shut down tactic. A forum doesn't have free speech protection! We aren't a court, we don't have to have presumption of innocence here! Yadda yadda yadda. We -know-. If we didn't know before, we certainly learned it on neogaf, where it's shouted from the rafters to shut down discussion.
But just because 'free speech' doesn't exist within a forum doesn't mean the phrase can't be uttered during a discussion. Most adults are, well, adult enough to understand that we use common phrases to communicate. It's not just a legal precedent. One can talk about the merits of free speech within the confines of a forum. We don't need to accuse people who do so of being fascist.
This, i think, exemplifies the issue. If you hadn't noticed the mob then you've ignored it or you're a part of it tbh.
Its a really easy tell. They come in swarms. They use buzzwords, insults and the last thing they heard John Oliver say to derail the thread and paint the opposing opinion into a corner they deem too tight to counter. They don't add anything to the discussion and they don't respond meaningfully to any sort of argument.
GAF leans very hard left. The issue is that because of it, we tend to overlook low quality posters and trolls who happen to agree with our ideology. If you've ever read a shitty truncated attack version of a nuanced progressive argument, rolled your eyes and just scrolled on, you're part of the problem. If you've never done that, you've undoubtedly posted one.
Having had time to read into this a bit more, I think I'd be interested in one too.
My fifty two cents.
I'm not going to comment on what actually transpired, who's right, who's scum, who's a misogynist and who's mentally ill, cause that's been covered and is quite obvious for everyone (with a conscience) to see and read.
I came for the gaming forum and stayed for the off-topic. I believe a lot of the people leaving or bothered by this are the same. People do grow out of things and for me (and probably others) was gaming. I simply don't spend as much time on gaming and as evidenced on the countless and repeated "backlog" threads, seems like quite a lot of you have also found that gaming isn't as big part of your life, as it once was. That's not to say that I don't play games anymore, I still play games, quite a lot of them, however that's still very less than the games I used to play 5 years ago. So, in the 5 minutes I would get during the random points in the day or at night, I would casually browse off-topic. The more I browsed off-topic, I spent less and less time in the gaming side.
I found that the level of conversation on the off-topic side was much more mature and people were less .. "toxic". Yes, every place and forum has bad apples so I'm not going to pretend like the usual suspects are doing - that off-topic was the cancer. In fact, in the gaming side, I still find that the level of discussion very childish with people slotting each other into specific platforms and that's how they would respond. In the off-topic side, if a poster was religious, his/her views on topic x could be still different and on topic y he/she could totally have a different opinion. What I'm trying to say is that people in the off-topic had much much much more range than what opinion they had on a certain topic if you could guess then maybe you'd still converse with him on another topic because he/she would totally come at the topic from a place you had not anticipated.
Besides, the community in the off-topic was much more diverse, so that was one more reason that made off-topic more valuable to me. There were different support groups that had done a lot of good and people who'd rely on these groups and had actually made their lives better due to the support from these groups.
I was never active in the socio-political threads because frankly I didn't care, neither did I lose any sleep over what discourse was happening there. People, more informed than me, more politically aware would discuss, argue and occasionally fight over small or big things because it mattered to them. And they would post long, thousand-word posts, that were carefully crafted, not some drive-by shit like "MAU" or "PS4>XBO" or whatever latest thing is these days. Occasionally the drive-by shit would happen too and they would be dealt-with and in some cases, not-dealt with, because mods, like all of us are humans. I see the same standard in the gaming side too, and to a much worse extent, people complaining and whining and thread going to shit and yet no mod would step in. It's not a slight against the mods, but moderation as whole wasn't perfect (neither do I expect it to, that too for a volunteer position) on both off-topic and gaming side, so it wasn't as if mods were turning a blind eye towards one section.
In terms of the discussion or the general opinion of the off-topic, most of it was anti-religion, mostly left and quite liberal. I didn't subscribe or hold all of those viewpoints but it didn't really bother me as much. And it's no surprise that the Gaffers celebrating the demise of off-topic are the ones that are either conservative, religious, right or some other opinion that wasn't common there. These people never posted in off-topic or if posted, didn't feel comfortable or simply didn't care if there were actually groups that thrived and benefitted from it. Over the past 50 or so pages, the common theme is there, these celebratory dances around the fire on off-topic, these people share the same values, which is a complete 180 of what was tolerated. So this is a new direction for "NeoGAF". Coincidentally the same usual suspects are on the same page that *nothing* wrong was done here, in hopes of becoming the new mods and or the prominent new personalities of this new NeoGAF.
I miss PoliticsGAF, SportsGAF, BoxOfficeGAF, MovieGAF, DCEU_Critic_GAF, TechGAF, HealthGAF, <insert all the community>GAF. Like someone said up earlier in the thread, I wish things were handled differently and I wish today was different than what it is now.
I'm not going to comment on what actually transpired, who's right, who's scum, who's a misogynist and who's mentally ill, cause that's been covered and is quite obvious for everyone (with a conscience) to see and read.
I came for the gaming forum and stayed for the off-topic. I believe a lot of the people leaving or bothered by this are the same. People do grow out of things and for me (and probably others) was gaming. I simply don't spend as much time on gaming and as evidenced on the countless and repeated "backlog" threads, seems like quite a lot of you have also found that gaming isn't as big part of your life, as it once was. That's not to say that I don't play games anymore, I still play games, quite a lot of them, however that's still very less than the games I used to play 5 years ago. So, in the 5 minutes I would get during the random points in the day or at night, I would casually browse off-topic. The more I browsed off-topic, I spent less and less time in the gaming side.
I found that the level of conversation on the off-topic side was much more mature and people were less .. "toxic". Yes, every place and forum has bad apples so I'm not going to pretend like the usual suspects are doing - that off-topic was the cancer. In fact, in the gaming side, I still find that the level of discussion very childish with people slotting each other into specific platforms and that's how they would respond. In the off-topic side, if a poster was religious, his/her views on topic x could be still different and on topic y he/she could totally have a different opinion. What I'm trying to say is that people in the off-topic had much much much more range than what opinion they had on a certain topic if you could guess then maybe you'd still converse with him on another topic because he/she would totally come at the topic from a place you had not anticipated.
Besides, the community in the off-topic was much more diverse, so that was one more reason that made off-topic more valuable to me. There were different support groups that had done a lot of good and people who'd rely on these groups and had actually made their lives better due to the support from these groups.
I was never active in the socio-political threads because frankly I didn't care, neither did I lose any sleep over what discourse was happening there. People, more informed than me, more politically aware would discuss, argue and occasionally fight over small or big things because it mattered to them. And they would post long, thousand-word posts, that were carefully crafted, not some drive-by shit like "MAU" or "PS4>XBO" or whatever latest thing is these days. Occasionally the drive-by shit would happen too and they would be dealt-with and in some cases, not-dealt with, because mods, like all of us are humans. I see the same standard in the gaming side too, and to a much worse extent, people complaining and whining and thread going to shit and yet no mod would step in. It's not a slight against the mods, but moderation as whole wasn't perfect (neither do I expect it to, that too for a volunteer position) on both off-topic and gaming side, so it wasn't as if mods were turning a blind eye towards one section.
In terms of the discussion or the general opinion of the off-topic, most of it was anti-religion, mostly left and quite liberal. I didn't subscribe or hold all of those viewpoints but it didn't really bother me as much. And it's no surprise that the Gaffers celebrating the demise of off-topic are the ones that are either conservative, religious, right or some other opinion that wasn't common there. These people never posted in off-topic or if posted, didn't feel comfortable or simply didn't care if there were actually groups that thrived and benefitted from it. Over the past 50 or so pages, the common theme is there, these celebratory dances around the fire on off-topic, these people share the same values, which is a complete 180 of what was tolerated. So this is a new direction for "NeoGAF". Coincidentally the same usual suspects are on the same page that *nothing* wrong was done here, in hopes of becoming the new mods and or the prominent new personalities of this new NeoGAF.
I miss PoliticsGAF, SportsGAF, BoxOfficeGAF, MovieGAF, DCEU_Critic_GAF, TechGAF, HealthGAF, <insert all the community>GAF. Like someone said up earlier in the thread, I wish things were handled differently and I wish today was different than what it is now.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Then make a thread about Breitbart and the current administration relationship after Bannon's departure?
Like, it was a thread about Bannon's arguments and most likely how awful they were. Why is it a good idea to discuss the validity of it and segway into Trump / Bannon relationship?
It's not.
I've been lurking and posting here for years. But I stopped going into discussions on OT because I got banned during E3 because of it. I liked it here. But having a proper discussion was impossible. I was sick of 20 people jumping at me calling me all kinds of nasty things instead of actually discussing. Trying to make me angry and not reading my posts and completely ignoring my points. Escalating to the point of me leaving the thread or somehow getting banned. Things I can talk about in public or in a bar with random people without any issues. I question things. I try to soak up knowledge from all kinds of different perspectives and form my own opinions instead of subscribing to an ideology. So I ask a lot of questions and don't consider anyone to hold a monopoly on truth especially when it's politically loaded. But I will listen to people and adjust my opinion. I don't see anything as being black or white and I like talking about a lot of social issues from a philosophical perspective. Because many sciences and philosophies are contradicting. So it's challenging to people subscribing to one ideology or way of thinking. And it pisses people off when their strongly held beliefs are being challenged.
Wowfunhappy
Member
I don't have an easy way, but you could put search terms into Google with site:neogaf.com and then use Google's cache. If the cache button isn't available, or you need to follow a link, copy the URL into http://cachedview.com
This is why, but the way, it REALLY sucks that all of that history was just purged completely. There's so much good writing there—admittedly largely buried, but still. Research an arguments that people worked hard on. Gone in the blink of an eye.
Edit: I will say that I don't think Neogaf was perfect, and that some bad situations were probably overlooked. But I also don't think they were the norm.
"I'm not racist. You're the real racist!"
Feel free and go to VOAT and talk to them directly about being better. A lot of unjustly banned ex gaffers there to talk all you want.
The Wise Old Man
Member
Let me assure everyone, Im not going fucking anywhere.
I almost lost my marriage and substantial sums of money due to an illicit affair I had while playing mobile strike. Did that stop me from continuing to offer my opinions on neogaf? No it did not. Now is the time for us all to take stock in who we are and double down. Not run.
Leaving a forum because the owner allegedly did something that sounds modestly rapey is depriving you of a great community to participate in. Would you also leave the US because our president is a vile immoral egomaniac who sells hatred and bigotry? No, you stand put, weather the storm, and focus on the good shit.
I didnt lose my wife and kids due to my online fling on Mobile Strike because I made the hard decision to break things off and curb my passions. Today, Im better off for it. This forum can bounce back too. We just need to accept our weaknesses and move forward as a group.
I almost lost my marriage and substantial sums of money due to an illicit affair I had while playing mobile strike. Did that stop me from continuing to offer my opinions on neogaf? No it did not. Now is the time for us all to take stock in who we are and double down. Not run.
Leaving a forum because the owner allegedly did something that sounds modestly rapey is depriving you of a great community to participate in. Would you also leave the US because our president is a vile immoral egomaniac who sells hatred and bigotry? No, you stand put, weather the storm, and focus on the good shit.
I didnt lose my wife and kids due to my online fling on Mobile Strike because I made the hard decision to break things off and curb my passions. Today, Im better off for it. This forum can bounce back too. We just need to accept our weaknesses and move forward as a group.
You don't understand that free speech is something you have to justify not a justification.
Free speech isn't some catch be all justification for saying whatever you want, I'm sure you can think of many examples that would prove this. Which is why just saying free speech is justification enough for an action is a bad argument, like how am I suppose to argue against that. The only way possible is to point out it doesn't fall in the legal definition because you have added no new information to the subject.
In relation to the interview?? You're saying if I don't like a thread I should make another one about the same topic?? There's clear rules about not making repeat threads. So no that was going to fly.
Also if you don't want to talk about whether Bannon and Trump are no longer friends or allies that's fine. But if that's the case why are you drawing arbitrary lines in the sand about what politics can't and can be discussed?
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Naw, I'm sure they wouldn't mind.
Also, I gotta question your memory about what transpired in that thread. Are you sure it was 100% dogling and zero discussion about Trump and Bannon?
Like zero?
What percent would you say?
Curious.
Here come the usual bullshit now.
One of my best friends, a black person, is making white jokes, he is making asian jokes he is also making black jokes. He must be a horrible person right? We also have an asian friend who likes to make fun of his kin as well as everyone else.
Its called sarcasm, humor parody. You may not like it but that doesnt make someone racist. We dont go around and do it to other people we do it between ourselves mocking each other because we are best buds.
My idol in sports is Michael Jordan and Ali, I love Martin L King and I am not going to go down that path you wish me to go.You are a hypocrite yourself. If I am racisist then you are so damn biased and ready to vilify anyone that you have become nothing but a racist yourself.
TrumanBurbank
Member
You had an affair while playing a retarded mobile game? What?
Your entire argument is filled with them, as specified in your previous post. The speculation on why he would post that, the speculation about how he wants to see something like Bill Nye vs creationists, the assumptions he wants to see zingers, and the assumption that therefore, he dislikes anita. Are you being purpusfully dense here? How can you even ask *which* assumptions? This lack of critical thinking here is baffling to me. You would rather ban people outright on shaky premises, which *all* have to be true in order for the conclusion to be true, rather than just ask for a elaboration.
I had proper discussions all the time and amazingly enough never got banned even when things got heated on all sorts of subjects. Amazing I know. This forum attracted people because of the discussion but not everything is worth discussing and this forum was great and weeding that crap out.
Mahadev
Member
Nice fallacy, use the worst example you can find on the internet to shit on free speech. You do know there are other neogaf offshoots (where demi/MrAngryFace and other old members migrated to a long time ago) that allow free speech and are perfectly nice communities, right?
Ahh the "my best friend is black" defense. You make racist jokes expect to defend yourself from people who don't find racism funny. Simple as that. Grow a thicker skin funny guy
The Wise Old Man
Member
Yes. Im sure GAF the thread is archived somewhere.
EvilLore, you sir are a scumbag. Scumbag is too appropriate. Dirtbag is better.
You say you didn't do it but the truth is out there. She spoke up and I know she will do whatever she can to put you away.
You can't run from the truth. You can't hide from it either. Face justice like a man or hide like a little b*tch. I guess that's what you are.
Sorry dude but there will be justice and I look forward to the way your butt goes to jail EvilLore. You earn no points or respect for me. You sir will have to live what with you did to that woman. Scumbag.
You say you didn't do it but the truth is out there. She spoke up and I know she will do whatever she can to put you away.
You can't run from the truth. You can't hide from it either. Face justice like a man or hide like a little b*tch. I guess that's what you are.
Sorry dude but there will be justice and I look forward to the way your butt goes to jail EvilLore. You earn no points or respect for me. You sir will have to live what with you did to that woman. Scumbag.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Guys, we definitely found a not-racist here! He's the first to tell you.
If you're comfortable enough to make jokes about stereotypes and people's race, you should be comfortable enough to accept those jokes being called racist or you being called racist for saying them.
Why is this a problem for you to the point you're now calling other people you don't know racist, you're dragging your shitty friends into it, and you're talking about how much you love MLK and Jordan? This is all ridiculous, and you should read a book or two about the subject.
Yeah one is being built as we speak by many of the best people from this site. You're welcome to visit.
ProfessorMoran
Member
The woman in question did not even press charges, there's no police report, I can't say I'm an Evilore supporter but he's suffered more reputational damage than evidence ever justified.
blankempathy
Member
Oh you know, to have an actual discussion? Like why is that hard to do? Even if someone is completely wrong why is it such a crazy idea to discuss why hes wrong and or why his points are wrong? Instead of just putting up a wall and closing yourself off? How can people have a real discussion when they only know their side of the issue? I don't get this attitude. We grow through knowledge. Even if that means becoming more knowledge of the things we resist.
Yes its clear that you guys are following the textbook responses. Disgusting. By the way thats the lite version of "gangbang".
All the "ah the X defense".
We are done here. Just know that by being here atm you are nothing but a hypocrite.
Because like above, you are a hypocrite.
xenoncrash
Member
A game called Mobile Strike entangled you in an illicit online affair?? Wha...??
Bannon's bull shit isn't worth discussing period.
You're clearly out of your depth here.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Now assumptions are bad?
Let's lay some facts for you:
1) He entered a thread that was heavily moderated and warned you shouldn't shitpost and actually engage the arguments
2) He didn't follow those rules
3) He was banned
What purpose comes from a live debate? I've asked the other guy but he seemed to deflect then bounced. Can you tell me? What purpose is there to debating whether or not women are negatively defined in the video game industry? It's an honest question. You should think about the answer clearly and then understand the people in that thread came to the same conclusion you will come to.
Why do you feel as if Bannon has validity? We already know his arguments are bullshit.
Clockwork
Member
Nah man, if you have a contrasting opinion you must be an alt-right gamergater piece of shit that belongs on VOAT.
/s
Mahadev
Member
I'm not talking the authoritarian shithole you've been advertising for hours in this forum. You're obviously completely oblivious to what I'm talking about, there are many neogaf offshoots not just the boogeyman you like to spam about.
Bravo man. Bravo.
Shouldn't you try and convince me though. Just talk to me and tell me about your funny racist jokes and how worthy they are of my attention and laughter. Please regale me.
You mean the forum you were lying through your teeth about?
blankempathy
Member
And for the uninformed? A lot of people get their news from here. Are people supposed to nod along to what people are saying without even knowing whats being talked about?
The Wise Old Man
Member
We became friends. Then sexting began. Then she sent me nide pics of herself. I was obsessed. I had to uninstall mobile strike and forget her.
- Status