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[llien]

And while Israel opened hostilities in the Sinai it was Jordan who attacked Israel from the West Bank in 1967.

No, not really, it was on the second day after Israel has attacked Egypt already, but it doesn't even matter.

I asked about ongoing expansion of "settlements" on territories already occupied by Palestinians and got no answer.

As for "why does Eastern Jerusalem belong to Israel":

East Jerusalem was supposed to be

but Jordan

With Jordan renouncing their claim in their peace treaty with Israel only Israel's claim remains

did I read it right, it's because of... Jordan? East Jerusalem, which is under Israel's control since 1967, is being actively "populated" by Israel and Jordan is to blame?

 

[3rdman]

Yes it most certainly is based on how things are going in NK. Enough with the bull crap - none of this blood is on US hands. The US opening an embassy does not logically require peaceful people to storm a different country's defense force.

You were saying...

 

[LordOfChaos]

fwiw...Hamas appears to have confirmed 50 of the killed were Hamas members. Just throwing the information out there.

https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...-556627?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[TarNaru33]

fwiw...Hamas appears to have confirmed 50 of the killed were Hamas members. Just throwing the information out there.

https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...-556627?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

When you actually decide to use a reputable source, let me know.

 

[NickFire]

The "F"???
I guess someone better phone the NKs and tell them get comfortable with a crappy dictator of Syrians to enjoy a few more years of civil war. I'm all against intervention unless necessary but the answer to recognized injustices that not even the international community agrees with isn't just to say "deal with it".

I mean shouldn't America just get use to idea of letting illegal immigrants stay since the status queue would be the most human and compassionate thing to do?

You cannot logically compare the situation of the Palestinians with the plight of the illegal immigrants, in the manner you chose. The Palestinians have no leverage and should be told to accept that. The US congress has all the leverage, so telling them what they have to accept for the same reasons as the Palestinians does not logically fit.

With respect to arguing for intervention, that is one approach and you are free to advocate for it. It has failed for 70 years and the people are still suffering with no hope for a future. Good luck with that one.

 

[cryptoadam]

It's called "ethnic cleansing". You don't morph "territory", but demographic.

Territories marked red were grabbed by Israel from Palestinians (this doesn't include Golan Heights, grabbed from Syria):

Hamas was founded in 1987.


Yeah, merely announced:

NETANYAHU ANNOUNCES PLANS FOR FIRST NEW WEST BANK SETTLEMENT IN 25 YEARS


And not to have illusions about "new settlements":
The announcement came less than 24 hours after Israel announced the advancement and/or authorization of 3,000 homes in other settlements.

So, while "new settlements" weren't created in the past, existing ones kept expanding.

LOL terrirotries were "grabbed". What a way to avoid history. Leaving out the part where the Arab armies attacked Israel and violently rejected partition? Ignoring my maps showing the 1937 and 1947 peace plans that the Arabs rejected? If you start a war there will be consequences. Arabs could of easily accepted peace and partition but they refused.

And the original post was about how Israel left Gaza yet somehow it was shrinking. Gaza is the same size it was in 2005 as it is today.

Israel authorizes buildings all the time and never follow through with it. Doesn't change the fact that as per the guradian Israel hadn't built a NEW settlement in nearly 25 years. I am strictly talking about NEW settlements.

Hamas was founded in 1987 and has been terrorizing ISrael and Jews ever since. And in 2005 after Israel left they have been raining rockets and building tunnels non stop. If you are going to fire rockets and build tunnels to kidnap soldiers then you will get a response. Hamas can stop fireing rockets and stop building tunnels but it refuses to do so and uses what little resources it has to continue doing so, even stealing UN aid. And even now they are paying 100$ per protester, 200 for injured and 3000 for dead. Hamas is spending Millions on these riots well at the same time complaining how Gazan's have no money and are suffering.

And Hamas just admited that 50 of the 60 dead were Hamas members. Peaceful protest my tuchas.

 

[NickFire]

LOL terrirotries were "grabbed". What a way to avoid history. Leaving out the part where the Arab armies attacked Israel and violently rejected partition? Ignoring my maps showing the 1937 and 1947 peace plans that the Arabs rejected? If you start a war there will be consequences. Arabs could of easily accepted peace and partition but they refused.

And the original post was about how Israel left Gaza yet somehow it was shrinking. Gaza is the same size it was in 2005 as it is today.

Israel authorizes buildings all the time and never follow through with it. Doesn't change the fact that as per the guradian Israel hadn't built a NEW settlement in nearly 25 years. I am strictly talking about NEW settlements.

Hamas was founded in 1987 and has been terrorizing ISrael and Jews ever since. And in 2005 after Israel left they have been raining rockets and building tunnels non stop. If you are going to fire rockets and build tunnels to kidnap soldiers then you will get a response. Hamas can stop fireing rockets and stop building tunnels but it refuses to do so and uses what little resources it has to continue doing so, even stealing UN aid. And even now they are paying 100$ per protester, 200 for injured and 3000 for dead. Hamas is spending Millions on these riots well at the same time complaining how Gazan's have no money and are suffering.

And Hamas just admited that 50 of the 60 dead were Hamas members. Peaceful protest my tuchas.

Some people have a tough time accepting or understanding the realities of the real world, and I bet quite a few have lost touch with reality thanks to being coddled in school. In a university setting you can protest till the cows come home, disrupt university operations, and have a bunch of overpaid administrators and professors commend you for your actions and try to appease you despite causing a headache. In the real world, if you have no military power, negotiate as if you do, and continue attacking and trying to kill people to prove a point while negotiating, yourself, your neighbors, and everyone else living in your community loses unless you win in your attacks. And when you don't win, there are no do-over buttons. That red button HRC gave Russia a few years back - just a toy with no magic.

 

[cryptoadam]

Hamas is certainly better than ISIS, to a point that EU was hesitant to call it a "terrorist" organization as it has a strong social service wing which can't be blamed for misdoings.


Mind boggling argument.
What % of the local population of "chopped Palestine, now Jordan" had to leave homes?

None, Jordan just gives them back their citizenship they stripped them of in 1988. You know rendering people stateless and stripping them of their citizenship is against international law.

Consider Jordan is 70%+ Palestinian. It occupied the WB for 20 years. The Queen of Jordan is Palestinan, its clear that Jordan and Palestine are much more compatible than Israel and Palestine.

 

[cryptoadam]

The 1948 war was started by the Arab nations. For the 1967 one there was a clear threat from Egypt who ordered the UN out, massed their army on the border and closed the sea access from the Red Sea, an act of war. And while Israel opened hostilities in the Sinai it was Jordan who attacked Israel from the West Bank in 1967. Nasser lied to King Hussein that Egypt was winning the war and he should attack before Egypt had taken all of Israel. Of course this was complete bullshit (much like Hamas saying to Gazans just this week the border fence was breached and they were streaming into Israel) and led to the West Bank being taken by Israel, something they had not planned to do.

East Jerusalem was supposed to be part of the Palestinian state in the 1948 plan but Jordan annexed it immediately which was accepted by the PLO in 1964. With Jordan renouncing their claim in their peace treaty with Israel only Israel's claim remains.

I need to correct you on this. Jerusalem was never to be seperated. 181 called for Jerusalem to be an international city, but not divided. East Jerusalem is a MYTH it does and has never exsisted outside of 19 years during an ILLEGAL Jordanian occupation. For the remaining 3000 years of history Jerusalem was on UNDIVIDED city.

So because Jordan violated 181 and illegal and violently stole half of Jerusalem it doesn't make it Palestinian.

The rest of what you wrote is a great history lesson that will fall on deaf ears. Most pro palestinians probably don't even know that Jordan occupied the WB.

 

[bucyou]

When you actually decide to use a reputable source, let me know.

Nice deflection, but by the time it took to type your snarky post you could have confirmed the info literally came from hamas

 

[Kadayi]

First one is about IS and the propaganda video is about the Hamas which shows 3-5 year olds with rifles as well. Also let us not be so naive to believe the Hamas is different than any other terror organisation.

If I ask for Oranges, I expect Oranges Dunki. just because Apples are round, doesn't mean that they fit the criteria. Also, I'm amused at the idea that ISIS somehow represents some benchmark for how all terrorist organisations work and therefore whatever actions they endorse naturally extend to all others. Should one expect the IRA to start beheading civilians? Honestly, I don't know who you're hoping to convince with this sort of lazy logic, and frankly, I don't see it as a good look for this forum going forward to keep people like you around. Anything and everything you post from here on in that doesn't remotely stand up to any level of cursory scrutiny will get called on.

I said expanding, not cleansing.

Don't be coy Hagglesworth, no need to deny it. Ethnic cleansing is an inherent by-product of this expansion you're celebrating. How about instead of hiding behind denials you just have the decency to embrace your inner psychopath. You're actively happy that other human beings are being killed, peoples whose only 'crime' is to have been born in a land that is coveted by a country that has the tacit approval of the US government to keep any international intervention regarding their militaries activities at bay. I get maybe being buoyant about ISIS fuelled Jihadis getting their clocks cleaned because they knew what they were getting into, but I can't see any reason to be upbeat about the casualties of the longest ongoing illegal military occupation the modern world has witnessed.

 

[VAL0R]

 

[Dunki]

If I ask for Oranges, I expect Oranges Dunki. just because Apples are round, doesn't mean that they fit the criteria. Also, I'm amused at the idea that ISIS somehow represents some benchmark for how all terrorist organisations work and therefore whatever actions they endorse naturally extend to all others. Should one expect the IRA to start beheading civilians? Honestly, I don't know who you're hoping to convince with this sort of lazy logic, and frankly, I don't see it as a good look for this forum going forward to keep people like you around. Anything and everything you post from here on in that doesn't remotely stand up to any level of cursory scrutiny will get called on.



Don't be coy Hagglesworth, no need to deny it. Ethnic cleansing is an inherent by-product of this expansion you're celebrating. How about instead of hiding behind denials you just have the decency to embrace your inner psychopath. You're actively happy that other human beings are being killed, peoples whose only 'crime' is to have been born in a land that is coveted by a country that has the tacit approval of the US government to keep any international intervention regarding their militaries activities at bay. I get maybe being buoyant about ISIS fuelled Jihadis getting their clocks cleaned because they knew what they were getting into, but I can't see any reason to be upbeat about the casualties of the longest ongoing illegal military occupation the modern world has witnessed.

So you are now following me to stalk and hunt me? Seriously? Even more funny is the part wen I told you like 3 times now that the VIDEO is about HAMAS and it is showing the exact thing I have told you as well. But since you overlooked it I will post it again. Maybe the next time you should click the links or videos I have posted. Just an small advice.



Also interesting opinion piece about Gaza and the Hamas.

Begining

For the third time in two weeks, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have set fire to the Kerem Shalom border crossing, through which they get medicine, fuel and other humanitarian essentials from Israel. Soon we'll surely hear a great deal about the misery of Gaza. Try not to forget that the authors of that misery are also the presumptive victims.

There's a pattern here — harm yourself, blame the other — and it deserves to be highlighted amid the torrent of morally blind, historically illiterate criticism to which Israelis are subjected every time they defend themselves against violent Palestinian attack.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/opinion/gaza-palestinians-protests.html

 

[TheMikado]

You cannot logically compare the situation of the Palestinians with the plight of the illegal immigrants, in the manner you chose. The Palestinians have no leverage and should be told to accept that. The US congress has all the leverage, so telling them what they have to accept for the same reasons as the Palestinians does not logically fit.

With respect to arguing for intervention, that is one approach and you are free to advocate for it. It has failed for 70 years and the people are still suffering with no hope for a future. Good luck with that one.

I mean you're essentially advocating that might makes right and the oppressed should just deal with it and "get used to it".

Apathy aside, the fact that we have an international community to help enforce code and protect oppressed communities is no different than saying people who were being robbed shouldn't make an effort to call the cops. Israel doesn't exist in some vacuum or some playground, there are international consequences to bullying and the matter needs to be peacefully resolved for the sake of international relations. The most practical, compassionate, and humane thing to do would be resolving the issue with as little bloodshed as possible would would likely mean a reduction of Israeli occupied territory. If you're trying to be practical and humane it would simply make more sense voluntarily right wrongs within reason rather than saying. "Too bad"

 

[camelCase]

frightening. this is like watching ISIS propaganda. You should be ashamed FOX

Religious nuts will always say things like this, I don't understand why this is cause for outrage. America is a (heavily) Christian nation. You haven't been consuming American media for long if that surprises you. Also, FOX lost credibility as a source of unbiased news long ago.

On the fighting, it seems that casualties were a foreground conclusion of this kind of protesting as another posted already mentioned. Kids shouldn't be anywhere near these places. The situation is harsh and I can't imagine the surreal lives the homeless who populate these protests wake up to. It seems like protest is the only thing they can do.

 

[Kadayi]

So you are now following me to stalk and hunt me? Seriously? Even more funny is the part wen I told you like 3 times now that the VIDEO is about HAMAS and it is showing the exact thing I have told you as well. But since you overlooked it I will post it again. Maybe the next time you should click the links or videos I have posted. Just an small advice.l

You're what is known as a useful idiot Dunki. You're incapable of looking beyond your own self-interest to see the bigger picture, with any degree of honesty. A populace is kept in what is little more than an open prison for 60 years, subjected to endless human right abuses on a generational scale with all the dysfunction that entails, and yet your focus is on condemning the imprisoned for having the temerity to rally against their condition or detest their jailers? See the problem is, you've got such a hard-on for rallying against Muslims because of your obsession with the mass immigration taking place in your beloved Fatherland, that you're intellectually and emotionally incapable of seeing them as human beings.

 

[HagglesworthMD]

If I ask for Oranges, I expect Oranges Dunki. just because Apples are round, doesn't mean that they fit the criteria. Also, I'm amused at the idea that ISIS somehow represents some benchmark for how all terrorist organisations work and therefore whatever actions they endorse naturally extend to all others. Should one expect the IRA to start beheading civilians? Honestly, I don't know who you're hoping to convince with this sort of lazy logic, and frankly, I don't see it as a good look for this forum going forward to keep people like you around. Anything and everything you post from here on in that doesn't remotely stand up to any level of cursory scrutiny will get called on.



Don't be coy Hagglesworth, no need to deny it. Ethnic cleansing is an inherent by-product of this expansion you're celebrating. How about instead of hiding behind denials you just have the decency to embrace your inner psychopath. You're actively happy that other human beings are being killed, peoples whose only 'crime' is to have been born in a land that is coveted by a country that has the tacit approval of the US government to keep any international intervention regarding their militaries activities at bay. I get maybe being buoyant about ISIS fuelled Jihadis getting their clocks cleaned because they knew what they were getting into, but I can't see any reason to be upbeat about the casualties of the longest ongoing illegal military occupation the modern world has witnessed.

Quite the opposite, people with different viewpoints should be encouraged going forward.

I mean you come across as a know it all yelling from his/her high horse but you're free to do it, I'm not subtly hinting that you should be banned.

I've been to Israel 3 times so you can take my view however you like, that's on you, but I know what it is like there. Israel wants peace but Hamas will not allow that.

 

[Kadayi]

Quite the opposite, people with different viewpoints should be encouraged going forward.

Differing viewpoints are only useful when they serve a meaningful purpose. I see no benefit in giving a platform to those who take joy in ethnic cleansing, or those who advocate or support it, least of all because some blood cult earnestly believe that 'God' told them 'this land is yours'

I mean you come across as a know it all yelling from his/her high horse but you're free to do it, I'm not subtly hinting that you should be banned.

I'm not asking for it, I just see it as an inevitability. When a poster is going down that Stormfront road, I don't envisage they're going to be around in the long term.

I've been to Israel 3 times so you can take my view however you like, that's on you, but I know what it is like there. Israel wants peace but Hamas will not allow that.

You think I care about your tourism? That somehow that's going to make ethnic cleansing acceptable?

 

[HagglesworthMD]

Differing viewpoints are only useful when they serve a meaningful purpose. I see no benefit in giving a platform to those who take joy in ethnic cleansing, or those who advocate or support it, least of all because some blood cult earnestly believe that 'God' told them 'this land is yours'



I'm not asking for it, I just see it as an inevitability. When a poster is going down that Stormfront road, I don't envisage they're going to be around in the long term.



You think I care about your tourism? That somehow that's going to make ethnic cleansing acceptable?

All you've done is take a few people's opinions, ran it through your outrage filter and twisted it to say that we are all for ethnic cleansing.. it's ridiculous.

Visiting a country is a great way to see what it's like and form your own opinion, free from the filtered picture you get on the news or certain echo chambers online.

 

[CodeTalker]

Turkeys next move: send a humanitarian aid flotilla to Gaza, escorted by military ships to protect Turkish nationals in the flotilla. They will argue that they only sail in international and Gaza waters

 

[Dunki]

You're what is known as a useful idiot Dunki. You're incapable of looking beyond your own self-interest to see the bigger picture, with any degree of honesty. A populace is kept in what is little more than an open prison for 60 years, subjected to endless human right abuses on a generational scale with all the dysfunction that entails, and yet your focus is on condemning the imprisoned for having the temerity to rally against their condition or detest their jailers? See the problem is, you've got such a hard-on for rallying against Muslims because of your obsession with the mass immigration taking place in your beloved Fatherland, that you're intellectually and emotionally incapable of seeing them as human beings.

Are fucking kidding me? Do you even know who the HAMAS are? And if you see this as an excuse to commit genocide to another in their opinion inferior religion is pretty disgusting. NOTHING absolute NOTHING justifies what the Hamas is doing. And if we go by who endured more ask the Jewish people who were hunted since 3000 years. And not only from Muslims but from Christianity, Nazis etc.

Also the HAMAS the IS or the radical islam has nothing to do with the Islam at all. They use it as a tool of oppression nothing else. I do not not mind Muslims as long they follow the laws of their country and as long they are not harming other people. But if kids gets radicalized in mosques here in Germany for example we need to act and do something about it.

I see no benefit in giving a platform to those who take joy in ethnic cleansing, or those who advocate or support it, least of all because some blood cult earnestly believe that 'God' told them 'this land is yours'

I love how you ignore the fact that the Hamas want a Jewish genocide since their establishment but you do you.

 

[llien]

LOL terrirotries were "grabbed". What a way to avoid history. Leaving out the part where the Arab armies attacked Israel and violently rejected partition?

It's not only that in most conflicts Israel was the first to attack, but you somehow fail to grasp that regardless of who attacked, it DOES NOT JUSTIFY ONGOING ETHNIC CLEANSING and LAND GRABBING.

Exactly that is what is going on in Jerusalem and West Bank at the moment AND FOR THE PAST DECADES.

Do you want to talk about real reasons for it?

East Jerusalem is a MYTH

Lies.

"The main dispute revolves around the legal status of East Jerusalem and especially the Old City of Jerusalem, while broader agreement exists regarding future Israeli presence in West Jerusalem.[1] De jure, the majority of United Nations (UN) member states and most international organisations do not recognize Israel's sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which came under its control after the 1967 Six-Day War, or its 1980 Jerusalem Law proclamation, which declared a "complete and united" Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.[6] As a result, most countries locate their foreign embassies in Tel Aviv and its suburbs rather than in Jerusalem.
Many UN member states formally adhere to the UN proposal that Jerusalem should have an international status, as outlined in General Assembly Resolution 181 (II).[7] The European Union has also followed the UN's lead in this regard, declaring Jerusalem's status to be that of a corpus separatum, or an international city to be administered by the UN.[8][9] While the US historically supported the establishment of an international regime for Jerusalem, it recognized the city as Israel's capital in December 2017 under the leadership of President Donald Trump.[10] The proposal that Jerusalem should be the future capital of both Israel and Palestine has also gained international support,[11] with endorsements coming from both the United Nations[12][13] and the European Union.[14][15]
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Jerusalem

 

[Moneal]

Lies.

"The main dispute revolves around the legal status of East Jerusalem and especially the Old City of Jerusalem, while broader agreement exists regarding future Israeli presence in West Jerusalem.[1] De jure, the majority of United Nations (UN) member states and most international organisations do not recognize Israel's sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which came under its control after the 1967 Six-Day War, or its 1980 Jerusalem Law proclamation, which declared a "complete and united" Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.[6] As a result, most countries locate their foreign embassies in Tel Aviv and its suburbs rather than in Jerusalem.
Many UN member states formally adhere to the UN proposal that Jerusalem should have an international status, as outlined in General Assembly Resolution 181 (II).[7] The European Union has also followed the UN's lead in this regard, declaring Jerusalem's status to be that of a corpus separatum, or an international city to be administered by the UN.[8][9] While the US historically supported the establishment of an international regime for Jerusalem, it recognized the city as Israel's capital in December 2017 under the leadership of President Donald Trump.[10] The proposal that Jerusalem should be the future capital of both Israel and Palestine has also gained international support,[11] with endorsements coming from both the United Nations[12][13] and the European Union.[14][15]
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Jerusalem

You could at least quote the whole comment:

I need to correct you on this. Jerusalem was never to be seperated. 181 called for Jerusalem to be an international city, but not divided. East Jerusalem is a MYTH it does and has never exsisted outside of 19 years during an ILLEGAL Jordanian occupation. For the remaining 3000 years of history Jerusalem was on UNDIVIDED city.

So because Jordan violated 181 and illegal and violently stole half of Jerusalem it doesn't make it Palestinian.

The rest of what you wrote is a great history lesson that will fall on deaf ears. Most pro palestinians probably don't even know that Jordan occupied the WB.

The Wikipedia article you posted says the same thing:

East Jerusalem is a term heavy with political implications. The term Arab Jerusalem is used by Arabs in official English language documents, emphasizing the Arabic speaking Palestinian population and distinguishing it from the Hebrew speaking parts of the city. Israelis call the Arab populated part of the city East Jerusalem because of its location in the eastern part of the single larger Jerusalem city unit.[14]

The term East Jerusalem is ambiguous and may be used to refer to either of the following:

• From 1948 to 1967 it referred to the 6.4 km2 (2.5 sq mi) Jordanian-ruled part of the city, mainly the predominantly Arab business district, the Old City and surrounding neighborhoods; counterpart of West Jerusalem, which referred to the Israeli part of the city.
• It may be applied to the area that Israel annexed and included in municipal Jerusalem following its occupation by Israel from Jordan in 1967, which lies north, east and south of the former East Jerusalem. This area includes an additional approximate 64 km2 (25 sq mi) of the West Bank, including territory which previously included 28 villages and areas of the Bethlehem and Beit Jala municipalities under Jordanian rule.[15][16]

So outside 48-67 it hasn't been a thing.

 

[llien]

You could at least quote the whole comment:

I was replying to "East Jerusalem is a myth" nonsense.

 

[Moneal]

I was replying to "East Jerusalem is a myth" nonsense.

yea so was I. The poster went on to explain the idea. It was not supposed to exist, and only did so because of an annexing by Jordan. You know kinda like East and West Berlin with Russia and the Allies after WW2. The myth is that it was meant to be a place to begin with. Sure it existed, but it didn't before Jordanian occupation and shouldn't after.

 

[Unknown Quantity]

Israel disregards international law, every story that quotes these violations always has Israel disputes this. So if you have an international entity that does this and any condemnation is vetoed by the US other than a final abstain by the Obama administration what do you do.
Imprisoned, and harassed, and told by 3rd party idiots that if you don't like it why not leave is unimaginably cruel and that script that keeps being regurgitated is tiring.
You can't imagine the reality of being unable to leave your home unoccupied as it can have new tenants by the time you're back and that the occupying party will have more rights to your home than you do.

OT international news, countries have all condemned what has happened, the reality is clear unless you're watching Fox and similarly biased media. Only measured genocide in the area was committed by Israel, numbers will tally I'm pretty sure. Other genocides committed against them didn't come from the neighborhood.
Nazis and turning away refugees to return to slaughter are for another topic and you can look for your scripts when discussing them.

 

[CodeTalker]

Isreal refused to sign many international treaties that aim to reduce nuclear proliferation, reducing the use if garmful weapons, fight torture or protect civilians during armed conflicts. Other countries, including Arab countries signed those treaties but Israel (also the United States to a lesser extent) refuse to sign or ratify those international treaties.

 

[Jmarshall]

fwiw...Hamas appears to have confirmed 50 of the killed were Hamas members. Just throwing the information out there.

https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-...-556627?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I don't speak Arabic and I'll need more context than a 10 second snippet put out by the IDF.

 

[llien]

It was not supposed to exist, and only did so because of an annexing by Jordan.

It wasn't supposed to be cleansed of Palestinians either, and Eastern part survived so only because of Jordan's intervention.

 

[NickFire]

I mean you're essentially advocating that might makes right and the oppressed should just deal with it and "get used to it".

Apathy aside, the fact that we have an international community to help enforce code and protect oppressed communities is no different than saying people who were being robbed shouldn't make an effort to call the cops. Israel doesn't exist in some vacuum or some playground, there are international consequences to bullying and the matter needs to be peacefully resolved for the sake of international relations. The most practical, compassionate, and humane thing to do would be resolving the issue with as little bloodshed as possible would would likely mean a reduction of Israeli occupied territory. If you're trying to be practical and humane it would simply make more sense voluntarily right wrongs within reason rather than saying. "Too bad"

I agree that I am essentially saying might makes right in this case. You could also accuse me of saying possession is 9/10 of the law in this case, and I wouldn't disagree either. Not because I do not believe in the rule of law though. Rather, I am a realist. This dispute involves much more than how we interpret international law. These people have been negotiating for 70 years without success. They continue to make demands that Israel is simply not going to capitulate to, and they continue to allow a segment of their population to stir up conflict with a first world military power that will not tolerate any threats to their people, and who responds with overwhelming force to any perceived threat. And they have no actual leverage besides getting people mad at Israel who will never actually and successfully attack Israel or impose any sort of crippling economic sanctions on them. As such, as long as they are propped up with false hope, all they will get is the continuation of their current conditions.

If you think telling them to stay strong and resist is actually going to help the next three generations of children grow up in proper conditions, by all means do so. Resist away with hopes that Israel will finally capitulate. But I think its time to simply tell them that its time to look at making the best of what you have, end this conflict, and give your children a chance to grow up to in a world where they can achieve more than martyrdom.

 

[cryptoadam]

It's not only that in most conflicts Israel was the first to attack, but you somehow fail to grasp that regardless of who attacked, it DOES NOT JUSTIFY ONGOING ETHNIC CLEANSING and LAND GRABBING.

Exactly that is what is going on in Jerusalem and West Bank at the moment AND FOR THE PAST DECADES.

Do you want to talk about real reasons for it?

Who attacks does justify it. Just ask the Axis powers in WW2. Or Turkey after WW1. You start a war and there will be consequences. What do you think the 7 Arab armies that attacked the nascant Israel were going to do? Tea and crumpets?

Since the Arab population in Israel and the territories has been growing, and Israel has given up the Sinai, Gaza, and Areas A+B I don't see you how can say there is ethnic cleansing and land grabbing. Look at a map of Israel territory in 1968 and that of today and you will see it has gotten SMALLER not larger. But of course you won't mention the 200 000 Palestinians ethnically cleansed by Kuwait, or the 100 000 out of Yarmouk refugee camp in Syria the last 5 years will you? If you want to talk about ethnic cleansing we can start there.

Lies.

"The main dispute revolves around the legal status of East Jerusalem and especially the Old City of Jerusalem, while broader agreement exists regarding future Israeli presence in West Jerusalem.[1] De jure, the majority of United Nations (UN) member states and most international organisations do not recognize Israel's sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which came under its control after the 1967 Six-Day War, or its 1980 Jerusalem Law proclamation, which declared a "complete and united" Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.[6] As a result, most countries locate their foreign embassies in Tel Aviv and its suburbs rather than in Jerusalem.
Many UN member states formally adhere to the UN proposal that Jerusalem should have an international status, as outlined in General Assembly Resolution 181 (II).[7] The European Union has also followed the UN's lead in this regard, declaring Jerusalem's status to be that of a corpus separatum, or an international city to be administered by the UN.[8][9] While the US historically supported the establishment of an international regime for Jerusalem, it recognized the city as Israel's capital in December 2017 under the leadership of President Donald Trump.[10] The proposal that Jerusalem should be the future capital of both Israel and Palestine has also gained international support,[11] with endorsements coming from both the United Nations[12][13] and the European Union.[14][15]
"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Jerusalem

I don't know what this BS has to do with what I wrote about "East Jerusalem". Before 1949 was there a city called East Jerusalem? NO! It was always called Jerusalem there was no east/west distinction. 181 didn't call for the city to be separated into east and west, it called for a UNITED Jerusalem to be an international city.

So because Jordan illegally invaded the eastern half and literally drew a line in the sand with Israel all of a sudden the city has been divided for the first time in nearly 3000 years. Of course for you when Arabs violently attack and steal land its perfectly acceptable even though you just wrote above that defensive wars don't allow you to take territory. But you are ok with Jordan stealing Jerusalem, ethnically cleansing out all the Jews, destroying over 50 synagogues and turning Jewish gravestones into toilets. Jerusalem has had a Jewish plurality since the middle of the 1800's and has always been linked to Jews. Whenever Jews were allowed to return through history they always did.

The UN can put its head in the sand all it wants, it can't change reality. The same UN that passed a Zionism is racisim resolution is a joke. Might as well ask me to take a jury full of KKK memebrs residing over the trial of a black man seriously.

 

[NickFire]

It's not only that in most conflicts Israel was the first to attack, but you somehow fail to grasp that regardless of who attacked, it DOES NOT JUSTIFY ONGOING ETHNIC CLEANSING and LAND GRABBING.

I agree with you that nothing justifies ethnic cleansing. But I completely disagree on the land grabbing. Attacking another country comes with possible risks and rewards, and losing land is one of the fair risks IMO.

 

[TTOOLL]

How dead are these people?

 

[KevinKeene]

Israel deserves so much shit, but nobody dares criticizing them from fear of being called anti-semitic. Which is bs. The Israelian government does not equal jews. Two different things. If you 'hate jews', you deserve shit because then you're a crappy neonazi. However, the government of Israel is a club of heinous murderers.
One Israelian soldier is killed by Hamas? Israel retaliates by killing 50 innocent Palaestinans and bombing their hospitals and schools. Screw Israel.

The whole 'Iran lied' thing was comically bad and embarrassing. Ofc, Trump took it as fact.

 

[Autoignition]

Israel deserves so much shit, but nobody dares criticizing them from fear of being called anti-semitic. Which is bs. The Israelian government does not equal jews. Two different things. If you 'hate jews', you deserve shit because then you're a crappy neonazi. However, the government of Israel is a club of heinous murderers.
One Israelian soldier is killed by Hamas? Israel retaliates by killing 50 innocent Palaestinans and bombing their hospitals and schools. Screw Israel.

The whole 'Iran lied' thing was comically bad and embarrassing. Ofc, Trump took it as fact.

It's a tough line to tread, because a lot of the time, criticism of the Israeli government comes seeped in general anti-Zionist sentiment.

Netanyahu is a piece of shit. I can't wait until he's out of power. But Israel should be and needs to remain sovereign.

 

[cryptoadam]

Israel deserves so much shit, but nobody dares criticizing them from fear of being called anti-semitic. Which is bs. The Israelian government does not equal jews. Two different things. If you 'hate jews', you deserve shit because then you're a crappy neonazi. However, the government of Israel is a club of heinous murderers.
One Israelian soldier is killed by Hamas? Israel retaliates by killing 50 innocent Palaestinans and bombing their hospitals and schools. Screw Israel.

The whole 'Iran lied' thing was comically bad and embarrassing. Ofc, Trump took it as fact.

The UN had a moment of silence for 50 dead Hamas members. Everyone criticizer Israel. UNHCR has a permanent item on its agenda about Israel. Most major newspapers/media are anti-Israel especially papers like the Guradian/BBC/NYTimes/Al-Jazeera. Every single Arab paper is dripping with criticism against Israel. So I am not sure where you come out with this that Israel doesn't get shit on enough? It is the most shit on country. 500 000 dead Syrians, 3000 dead Palestinians in Syria but UN doesn't have a moment of silence. 50 dead Hamas members and UN stands in solidarity.

And I can see you are so balanced, calling an entire government club of heinous murderers. So does that include the Joint List and Meretz as well since you know they are part of the government?

 

[cryptoadam]

It's a tough line to tread, because a lot of the time, criticism of the Israeli government comes seeped in general anti-Zionist sentiment.

Netanyahu is a piece of shit. I can't wait until he's out of power. But Israel should be and needs to remain sovereign.

Really? I think he has been one of Israel's best leaders. Maybe not the thread to discuss, but he has masterfully guided Israel during his tenure. Israel has become the 25th most powerful economy, GDP nearing and above some EU countries. Israelis are the 11th most happiest people in the world. He navigated through Obama's anti-Israel years. Opened up relations across the ME/India/Africa where Israel is probably in its best situation diplomatically. He got the Embassy moved to Israel's capital and more to follow. And under Bibi Israeli Arabs have closed many gaps and received billions of sheckles for programs/infrastrucrue, the most under any Israeli government.

What has he done to make Israel worse off? By all standards and measurements he has improved and pushed Israel forward.

 

[Autoignition]

Really? I think he has been one of Israel's best leaders. Maybe not the thread to discuss, but he has masterfully guided Israel during his tenure. Israel has become the 25th most powerful economy, GDP nearing and above some EU countries. Israelis are the 11th most happiest people in the world. He navigated through Obama's anti-Israel years. Opened up relations across the ME/India/Africa where Israel is probably in its best situation diplomatically. He got the Embassy moved to Israel's capital and more to follow. And under Bibi Israeli Arabs have closed many gaps and received billions of sheckles for programs/infrastrucrue, the most under any Israeli government.

What has he done to make Israel worse off? By all standards and measurements he has improved and pushed Israel forward.

I have a lingering beef with war criminals who are left unaccountable and who remain as leaders held over from the Bush years.

 

[KevinKeene]

The UN had a moment of silence for 50 dead Hamas members. Everyone criticizer Israel. UNHCR has a permanent item on its agenda about Israel. Most major newspapers/media are anti-Israel especially papers like the Guradian/BBC/NYTimes/Al-Jazeera. Every single Arab paper is dripping with criticism against Israel. So I am not sure where you come out with this that Israel doesn't get shit on enough? It is the most shit on country. 500 000 dead Syrians, 3000 dead Palestinians in Syria but UN doesn't have a moment of silence. 50 dead Hamas members and UN stands in solidarity.

And I can see you are so balanced, calling an entire government club of heinous murderers. So does that include the Joint List and Meretz as well since you know they are part of the government?

None of that criticism against Israel seems to come through in Germany. The media here recently discussed in great detail Israel, its history, the embassy moving, incidents if anti-semitic violents, anti-semitic mobbing at schoold, etc.. At one point, a popular politician even said '(verbal) Attacks against Israel are attacks against the jews!' - to which I fundamentally disagree.

You mention that Israel's wrong-doings didn't go unnoticed. Great. Now if only it saw some real consequences.

And yes, I will call a country that kills 50 or more innocent civilians, bombs hospitals and schools, in retaliation to one of their soldiers being killed, a murder state. Fuck them.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Can anyone prove Obama was anti-israel? I mean, chill with the propaganda.

 

[cryptoadam]

None of that criticism against Israel seems to come through in Germany. The media here recently discussed in great detail Israel, its history, the embassy moving, incidents if anti-semitic violents, anti-semitic mobbing at schoold, etc.. At one point, a popular politician even said '(verbal) Attacks against Israel are attacks against the jews!' - to which I fundamentally disagree.

You mention that Israel's wrong-doings didn't go unnoticed. Great. Now if only it saw some real consequences.

And yes, I will call a country that kills 50 or more innocent civilians, bombs hospitals and schools, in retaliation to one of their soldiers being killed, a murder state. Fuck them.

Well I think Germany needs to be touchy when it comes to criticizing jews, you know the whole Nazi/exterminate 6 million of them things.

And what 50 innocent civilians are you talking about ? the 50 hamas members from Monday? What about Germany and their role in Afghanistan? Or how about Germany selling chemical weapons to Iran/Syria?

https://www.jpost.com/International...ran-for-use-in-Syrian-chemical-attacks-540760

Fuck Germany ?

But look you are allowed to have your opinion as long as its not based on lies. If you are anti war then be anti war. Extend that to both sides though.

 

[Kadayi]

All you've done is take a few people's opinions, ran it through your outrage filter and twisted it to say that we are all for ethnic cleansing.. it's ridiculous.

If you're for the expansion of Israeli only settlements on territory that falls outside of the internationally recognised borders of the State of Israel then I can't see how you could be doing anything other than tacitly approving the ethnic cleansing of the present inhabitants. What's been going on in the occupied territories is in complete violation of UN law and no amount of 'look what we've achieved', 'The Jewish people have suffered so much', 'Whataboutism' or any other well-worn and overused apologist shibboleth is going magically make what's going on in Palestine somehow remotely acceptable to anyone who considers themselves a fully functional member of the human race.

I mean honestly check out how lacking in self-awareness this post is: -

I love how you ignore the fact that the Hamas want a Jewish genocide since their establishment but you do you.[

No actual ability to comprehend the fact that when you oppress a people for decades, they're not exactly going to look upon you favourably. When did the Israeli occupation start? 1967. When was Hamas established? 1987

And yes, I will call a country that kills 50 or more innocent civilians, bombs hospitals and schools, in retaliation to one of their soldiers being killed, a murder state. Fuck them.

On point. A few years back some members of the Real IRA shot a couple of UK squaddies and a Polish Taxi driver in Northern Ireland. Strangely enough, the UK response wasn't to advance the border south by 10 miles and carpet bomb Cork for two straight weeks afterwards in relatiation. I dare say if it had, however, the US government wouldn't be standing by the UK's right to defend itself.

Can anyone prove Obama was anti-israel? I mean, chill with the propaganda.

I think Obama stopping Israel from bombing Iran and kickstarting World War 3 is probably the clincher for that particular sentiment.

 

[Dunki]

No actual ability to comprehend the fact that when you oppress a people for decades, they're not exactly going to look upon you favourably. When did the Israeli occupation start? 1967. When was Hamas established? 1987

...................

How long were Jewish people oppressed? 3000 years? With your logic you must be on the side of the Jewish people. And again this does not justify ANY form of genocide Agenda....... OR is it now OK for black people in America to form to a militant group and kill white people? OR the stuff that is now happening in South Africa with white people? I can not believe that you actually try to justify the Hamas or better any organisation advocating for Genocide.

As for Germany: Currently Anti Antisemitism is on the raise again but not through Nazis or right wing Parties but through brainwashing Muslim children in mosques. More and more cases are now known from even elementary schools in which Jewish and non Muslim children getting threaten with death. There is something terrible wrong here in Germany when you can run around with a Hijab but with wearing a Kippa you are getting assaulted and insulted. In 10 to 20 years we will have a impossible to solve Problem if we do not act NOW. And NO I am not talking about getting rid of Muslims but rather abolish any form of foreign financial support from countries like Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia etc for these Mosques receive . and only use Iman who were trained in the EU.

I also find it hilarious when people try to make people believe that the Islam is an oppressed Religion. It never was one and never will be one.

 

[KevinKeene]

Well I think Germany needs to be touchy when it comes to criticizing jews, you know the whole Nazi/exterminate 6 million of them things.

Germany is least in need of 'being touchy' about anything. My generation has zero affiliation with past crimes. My generation is forced to learn about WW2 and the Holocaust about 3 times during school life.

Meanwhile, the USA have long since forgotten about their genocide of native Americans, which these days only makes the headlines when it's about some irrelevant baseball-team. The USA are responsible for the most heinous crime of societally accepted slavery. And instead of lowering their head in shame, they had he gall to turn it into a mere civil rights issue today - it was an evil crime, nothing less. The nazis at least 'only' killed jews, but german society didn't turn them into human objects.

So, no, Germany doesn't need to be touchy when it comes to calling Israel out for their CUURENT crimes.

And what 50 innocent civilians are you talking about ? the 50 hamas members from Monday?

You fool. The nunber 50 was a placeholder. I simply remember one headline from 2-3 years ago, where an Israelian soldier was killed by Hamas, and Israel's answer was to kill about about 50 random Palestinian civilians, as well as bombing hospitals. That happened countless times! If you wanna talk about totals, you'll probably have to make these 50 well over 1000 (likely way too low still).

Instead of bringing up ridiculous accusations from contextless events, how about you reply to the issue of vastly overblown retaliation on Israel's part? Do you really intend to excuse the death of civilians and bombing of fucking hospitals by saying 'oh well, Hamas killed one soldier'?

 

[cryptoadam]

...................

How long were Jewish people oppressed? 3000 years? With your logic you must be on the side of the Jewish people. And again this does not justify ANY form of genocide Agenda....... OR is it now OK for black people in America to form to a militant group and kill white people? OR the stuff that is now happening in South Africa with white people? I can not believe that you actually try to justify the Hamas or better any organisation advocating for Genocide.

As for Germany: Currently Anti Antisemitism is on the raise again but not through Nazis or right wing Parties but through brainwashing Muslim children in mosques. More and more cases are now known from even elementary schools in which Jewish and non Muslim children getting threaten with death. There is something terrible wrong here in Germany when you can run around with a Hijab but with wearing a Kippa you are getting assaulted and insulted. In 10 to 20 years we will have a impossible to solve Problem if we do not act NOW. And NO I am not talking about getting rid of Muslims but rather abolish any form of foreign financial support from countries like Iran, Turkey, Saudi Arabia etc for these Mosques receive . and only use Iman who were trained in the EU.

I also find it hilarious when people try to make people believe that the Islam is an oppressed Religion. It never was one and never will be one.

There are 1.5 billion muslims, 51 OIC (or 57) countries. They sit on top of one of the most valuable items in the world (OIL). They have also enslaved, conqured, cleansed, and erased various cultures and countries over the last 1400 years. But yes Muslims are oppressed LOL. Go to a Muslim country and ask how Christians/Hindus/Jews or other minority religions are doing there and we can talk about oppression.

 

[Dunki]

?

You really should read articles like these to understand what the HAMAS is doing how they are manipulating and worsen Every person from Palästina with their actions. The Hamas does not care about their own people they are using them to finish their Jewish Genocide Goal.

But with one thing I agree we need to start to speak about our problems with Integration, and how the past has been used against us all the time.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/opinion/gaza-palestinians-protests.html

 

[AlexUk]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/16/middleeast/hamas-members-gaza-deaths/index.html

Pretty much confirmed that most of those 62 were Hamas

 

[cryptoadam]

Germany is least in need of 'being touchy' about anything. My generation has zero affiliation with past crimes. My generation is forced to learn about WW2 and the Holocaust about 3 times during school life.

Meanwhile, the USA have long since forgotten about their genocide of native Americans, which these days only makes the headlines when it's about some irrelevant baseball-team. The USA are responsible for the most heinous crime of societally accepted slavery. And instead of lowering their head in shame, they had he gall to turn it into a mere civil rights issue today - it was an evil crime, nothing less. The nazis at least 'only' killed jews, but german society didn't turn them into human objects.

So, no, Germany doesn't need to be touchy when it comes to calling Israel out for their CUURENT crimes.

Your history is not so long ago. Glad you were "forced" to learn about the holocaust. From you post and tone it seems to me like you needed it and to be reminded of where hate can lead to. I am not saying you can't criticize Israel. You think their economic policy sucks shout it out loud. You don't like the garbage pick up in tel aviv let them know. Israeli's critcizes themselves more than anyone else does.

Not sure what the US has to do with anything (and BTW I am not American), but very telling that you say the Nazi's "only" killed Jews. I guess Gypsy's, disabled, or any one else deemed undersirable wasn't covered in your school life. I would seriously suggest re reading about WW2 and what the Nazi's did because you didn't seem to learn anything at all.

You fool. The nunber 50 was a placeholder. I simply remember one headline from 2-3 years ago, where an Israelian soldier was killed by Hamas, and Israel's answer was to kill about about 50 random Palestinian civilians, as well as bombing hospitals. That happened countless times! If you wanna talk about totals, you'll probably have to make these 50 well over 1000 (likely way too low still).

So you don't actually know what you are talking about and basing it on some vague memory about a headline 2 or 3 years ago? Protective edge wasn't about an Israelian soldier, nor was the numbers 50 or 1000 or whatever. Read a newspaper (preferably JPOST not daily stormer) and actually read what happened.

War sucks, maybe Hamas shouldn't fire rockets into Israel, kidnap its soldiers, murder it citizens through terror, or build tunnels to kindap and hold people hostage. But if you start a fight well you will get consequences. Again learn your countries own history and about Germany and WW2 and the destruction that brought upon Europe. I

Instead of bringing up ridiculous accusations from contextless events, how about you reply to the issue of vastly overblown retaliation on Israel's part? Do you really intend to excuse the death of civilians and bombing of fucking hospitals by saying 'oh well, Hamas killed one soldier'?

Hamas didn't kill "one soldier". I don't know where you are getting this from. Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel and creating an islamic suprecmict state in "Palestine". Protective edge had nothing to do with soldier, and actually 3 israeli teenagers were kidnapped and murdered. Along with Hamas rockets, tunnels and terror.

I feel sorry for anyone who has to lose their life in a war, war sucks and isn't nice. But if Hamas is going to attack Israel then there will be consequences. Thats what happens when you attack another country. What should Israel do just let themselves be attacked over and over again? And Hamas hides amongst the civilian population, in hospitals, and even stores weapons in UN schools.

Here is another interesting tid bit, did you know the UNRAW closed all its schools in Gaza on Monday? This way as many children as possible could go to the fence riots in harms way. Yes UNRAW that is supposed to be netural, took a political stance and closed their schools so the maximum amount of children could be used as fodder for Hamas.

 

[Kadayi]

.I also find it hilarious when people try to make people believe that the Islam is an oppressed Religion. It never was one and never will be one.

If only I'd made it about religion Dunki. Instead, I made it about people and international borders. You're 'whataboutism' is predictable weak sauce. No one with a modicum of humanity is buying what your selling I'm afraid.

 

[cryptoadam]

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/16/middleeast/hamas-members-gaza-deaths/index.html

Pretty much confirmed that most of those 62 were Hamas

It doesn't matter, anti-Israel crowd got the headlines they want. They won't ever waver from their story that the riots were innocent and peace loving.

There are so many stories out there documenting this whole deal and how Hamas has been manipulating it the whole time. Paying protestors, threatning bus companies to transport people, calling for strikes, closing schools, loudspeakers telling people IDF is retreating when they aren't.

This riot has been planned all the way back since Feburary. The facebook page dates back to then. The goal of the march was to get Millions of Palestinians to breach the border. And if people had longer memories they would know that in 2011 the same stunt was tried when protesters from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Gaza and the West Bank tried to simultaneously enter Israel on "Nakba Day."

Ohh and UNWRA being once again "netural"

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/246150