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[Clear]

Lets not forget, baseline for this gen was/is base PS4's 1.8tf. A 5-fold increase in GPU power is a significant step up! Especially when accompanied by a similarly substantial increase in cpu performance by moving from Jaguar to Ryzen. Those specs are more than enough, and hitting that $399 price point is an absolute must.

 

[Klik]

I just want psvr2 with better resolutionvr is a game changer for racing games and others

 

[mckmas8808]

Lets not forget, baseline for this gen was/is base PS4's 1.8tf. A 5-fold increase in GPU power is a significant step up! Especially when accompanied by a similarly substantial increase in cpu performance by moving from Jaguar to Ryzen. Those specs are more than enough, and hitting that $399 price point is an absolute must.

But what if you can get 12 TFs of power and 24 GBs of RAM one year later for $399?

 

[Dabaus]

Id rather sony release the PS5 first to swoop up market share and become the dominant console? WHY you ask? Because when theyre on top everybody eats. Japanese, Western studios, third party developers. Look at the resurgence in Japanese and eastern developers this generation, that wouldn't have happened if the ps4 wasn't on top. You can say that's fan boyish if you want, that's fine.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

But what if you can get 12 TFs of power and 24 GBs of RAM one year later for $399?

The simplified reason is that these consoles (or any complex piece of tech really) are created over 5+ years. The spec/price/launch would have been something planned and developed for years ago.

You can't get to the last year of a 5 year development process and say, oh dammit....if we delay for a year we can double the RAM/GPU or halve the cost. You would never launch anything with that attitude! (leaving aside the small matter of manufacturing logistics/contracts and game development).

I'm not expecting miracles spec-wise for PS5 with the stated gains that 7nm brings over 16nm.

According to TSMC 7nm will deliver +35% speed increase using the same power which I think (please correct if wrong!) would be 911MHz (16nm Pro) >~1.3GHz on the GPU and >3 times density which if I understand that right should enable
a full 64CUs (72 with 8 for redundancy) easily. Add a mobile 8 core Zen/Zen 2 CPU and bob's you're uncle. Not sure of the maths but I think it would be ~11TF before any Cerny secret sauce.

I also think that if the guy in the above video, and Foxy Gamer he references, have the same source at all (if they have a source) it is likely specs of a very early PC target box just like early PS4 kits. I doubt the proper devkits with real HW will be sent out until the end of this year (first-party) to just after GDC next year (third-party) if 2019. Nor do I believe Sony will disclose actual finished specs until GDC.

 

[DeepEnigma]

So why 2019? Why not 2020 at you get your 12 TF console?

Anyone remember this article?

PS5 Still Three Years Off, Says PlayStation Boss

John Kodera, has said the company will take the next three years to further develop the fifth-generation PlayStation console, reports The Wall Street Journal. "We will use the next three years to prepare the next step, to crouch down so that we can jump higher in the future," said Kodera.

 

[mckmas8808]

Anyone remember this article?

PS5 Still Three Years Off, Says PlayStation Boss

I do remember this. 2021? I'd take 2021 over 2019 if it was up to me.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Anyone remember this article?

PS5 Still Three Years Off, Says PlayStation Boss

Different people will interpret things in different ways. I was bored one day and transcribed the English translation of the IR Day Q&A question 4. Here is what (please do check for any errors) John Kodera said in answer:

For next gen platform I'm not allowed to speak I'm sorry, but the tendency...I can talk about the tendency, a trend as a trend in the current MRP.
It is difficult to talk about all the future prospects of SIE in its totality in the current MRP so my simple answer it means that PlayStation
has to grow but before that you have to bend before you jump. So the cashflow has to be continuously generated and using this cash generated make the investment for the future
and during the current MRP we have to stoop a little before jumping.

I still want an explanation as to why in a 3 year forecast they omit figures for FY 2019? That to me rings alarm bells!

 

[mckmas8808]

Different people will interpret things in different ways. I was bored one day and transcribed the English translation of the IR Day Q&A question 4. Here is what (please do check for any errors) John Kodera said in answer:



I still want an explanation as to why in a 3 year forecast they omit figures for FY 2019? That to me rings alarm bells!

What the heck does MRP mean? And what does he mean they have to "stoop" before jumping?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

What the heck does MRP mean? And what does he mean they have to "stoop" before jumping?

'Mid-Range Plan'. 'Stoop' is what the translator at the IR Day said. In the article DeepEnigma linked the word used in that was 'Crouch' which is basically the same. Note there were no mentions of 3 years from the IR Day Q&A so wonder if those parts were from the article author rather than from John Kodera? I believe the 3 years might be because the MRP is a 3 year plan hence why the author thinks PS5 might be that far away?

 

[bitbydeath]

Anyone remember this article?

PS5 Still Three Years Off, Says PlayStation Boss

It was later corrected.

No, Sony Never Said that PS5 Is Three Years Away

The “three years” figure was related to the fact that the whole Corporate Strategy Meeting (for Sony as a whole, and not just for the Game & Network Services business segment that represents PlayStation) was focused on Sony’s “mid-term corporate strategy” plan, spanning the three fiscal years between April 2017 and March 2021.

All executives involved from all the segment of Sony’s business (games, music, imaging, mobile, and semiconductors) talked about the plans and expectations for those three years. The “three years” time frame was mentioned not because Sony expects to launch PS5 beyond March 2021, but only because it was the theme of the whole meeting to begin with.

 

[davepoobond]

Wonder if it is basically a PS4 double pro

 

[CloudStrife_ca]

I just want psvr2 with better resolutionvr is a game changer for racing games and others

Me too! For something like Firewall Zero Hour or Gran Turismo higher resolution would be sweet. I'm definitely in for PSVR2, heres to hoping the PS5 does something in the way of upscalling for PSVR first gen games although not sure how that'd work if its dependent on the limitations of the hardware.

 

[DeepEnigma]

It was later corrected.

No, Sony Never Said that PS5 Is Three Years Away

Gotcha. I guess we will know 2019 or 2020 if anything leaks in the next 6-7 months or so.

 

[DemonCleaner]

I do remember this. 2021? I'd take 2021 over 2019 if it was up to me.

this makes no sense whatsoever. you won't see another real node shrink after 7nm till 2022 (at best). so late 2019 / early 2020 is the perfect timing for a console launch from an hardware perspective. the only thing that would be a pros for a later launch is the ability to add more advanced hardware accelerated ray tracing stuff in your GPU.

 

[John Peter]

this makes no sense whatsoever. you won't see another real node shrink after 7nm till 2022 (at best). so late 2019 / early 2020 is the perfect timing for a console launch from an hardware perspective. the only thing that would be a pros for a later launch is the ability to add more advanced hardware accelerated ray tracing stuff in your GPU.

I don't know guys... But I think next gen consoles should hit something between 12.6 ~15Teraflops. If we're talking about running Native 4k.

I believe that in the starting gen we will see remastered versions from the current gen running at 4k 60fps. The True Next Gen games will be running at 4k 30fps.

We all know that AMD TeraFlops are not the same performance of Nvidia Teraflops. To bring the same performance of a GTX 1080 with 9Tflops AMD should hit 12.6Tflops with the RX VEGA 64.

I just don't know if AMD will be able to launch a Mid-Range GPU with 12.6Tflops(RX VEGA 64 equivalent) in the end of 2019 for a good price to be included in a simple console that cost around $399.

Maybe I'm wrong because I've seen an user talking that a GPU hardware based in 7nm and an all new Architecture would be able to hit the same performance of a current high end GPU even with less ''TeraFlops'' in mind. Something like 11Tflops being like 12.6Tflops of VEGA 64.

I don't know what kind of improvements games would take with faster Ryzen based CPUs. Maybe something about physics and AI. I don't know...

But with my poor understanding of hardware I can say that a next gen console should hit the following specs below:

12.6Tflops(RX VEGA 64 Equivalent or 2x Xbox One X and 3x PS4 PRO).
16GB GDDR6
Ryzen 8-Core, 3.2Ghz

If the PS5 won't bring us these specs, I'll need a good specialist in this area to convince me of buying a next gen console before the ''PRO'' version.

 

[Klik]

Me too! For something like Firewall Zero Hour or Gran Turismo higher resolution would be sweet. I'm definitely in for PSVR2, heres to hoping the PS5 does something in the way of upscalling for PSVR first gen games although not sure how that'd work if its dependent on the limitations of the hardware.

I bought psvr for Gran turismo and i must say i cant go back to normal flat TV. It sucks because GTS doesn't support online for VR so basically i cant even play it anymore. Thats how drastic change was for me after trying VR for racing.

Even Resident Evil 7 was mindblowing in VR.

 

[Panajev2001a]

this makes no sense whatsoever. you won't see another real node shrink after 7nm till 2022 (at best). so late 2019 / early 2020 is the perfect timing for a console launch from an hardware perspective. the only thing that would be a pros for a later launch is the ability to add more advanced hardware accelerated ray tracing stuff in your GPU.

Thought it would have been posted already, but: Global Foundry stops all 7nm / 5nm / EUV R&D . We are down to only TMSC, and UMC but not really in the same league, as independent foundry and lost another bug player in the manufacturing race (Intel, Samsung, and TMSC are the only ones pushing forward... Intel is having some problems too).

Unless your product is called iPhone, I would not bet to have volumes and power being able to influence those remaining players too much and anyways... the manufacturing process evolution is still slowing down as costs increase massively (and the delta cost between node upgrades seems to be increasing too) with each new transition. On top of that time between meaningful node advancements is getting longer and longer...

 

[mckmas8808]

this makes no sense whatsoever. you won't see another real node shrink after 7nm till 2022 (at best). so late 2019 / early 2020 is the perfect timing for a console launch from an hardware perspective. the only thing that would be a pros for a later launch is the ability to add more advanced hardware accelerated ray tracing stuff in your GPU.

RAM increase. That's really important to me for what could change the outlook on nextgen games. The difference between 16 GBs and 24 GBs, in my opinion, is worth an 18 month delay.

Thought it would have been posted already, but: Global Foundry stops all 7nm / 5nm / EUV R&D . We are down to only TMSC, and UMC but not really in the same league, as independent foundry and lost another bug player in the manufacturing race (Intel, Samsung, and TMSC are the only ones pushing forward... Intel is having some problems too).

Unless your product is called iPhone, I would not bet to have volumes and power being able to influence those remaining players too much and anyways... the manufacturing process evolution is still slowing down as costs increase massively (and the delta cost between node upgrades seems to be increasing too) with each new transition. On top of that time between meaningful node advancements is getting longer and longer...

Very very interesting. Hmmm....One wonders where tech will be going after the year 2025 then.

 

[Racer!]

Thought it would have been posted already, but: Global Foundry stops all 7nm / 5nm / EUV R&D . We are down to only TMSC, and UMC but not really in the same league, as independent foundry and lost another bug player in the manufacturing race (Intel, Samsung, and TMSC are the only ones pushing forward... Intel is having some problems too).

Unless your product is called iPhone, I would not bet to have volumes and power being able to influence those remaining players too much and anyways... the manufacturing process evolution is still slowing down as costs increase massively (and the delta cost between node upgrades seems to be increasing too) with each new transition. On top of that time between meaningful node advancements is getting longer and longer...

Pure business decision.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Pure business decision.

Correct ... and? It would be better news if it was a political or whatever else motivated decision really. If you think about it, this means that they do not see enough growth opportunity and revenue to justify the investment required in helping the race to “yet a more advanced manufacturing process” to continue.

The net result is one less giant investing in speeding R&D along and that will make it riskier and more time consuming for those involved which tends to slow things down :/.

 

[longdi]

Thought it would have been posted already, but: Global Foundry stops all 7nm / 5nm / EUV R&D . We are down to only TMSC, and UMC but not really in the same league, as independent foundry and lost another bug player in the manufacturing race (Intel, Samsung, and TMSC are the only ones pushing forward... Intel is having some problems too).

Unless your product is called iPhone, I would not bet to have volumes and power being able to influence those remaining players too much and anyways... the manufacturing process evolution is still slowing down as costs increase massively (and the delta cost between node upgrades seems to be increasing too) with each new transition. On top of that time between meaningful node advancements is getting longer and longer...

Woah, better delay PS5 in that case. Kinda shitty to have a next gen consoles running on 12nm. Reminds me of PS3, too late, too big and expensive. In the case of PS5, Sony sure will drop the performance instead of bearing the costs this time.

 

[SonGoku]

Woah, better delay PS5 in that case. Kinda shitty to have a next gen consoles running on 12nm. Reminds me of PS3, too late, too big and expensive. In the case of PS5, Sony sure will drop the performance instead of bearing the costs this time.

delay till 2022 for all i care
A half step gen would be horrible. They should just release Pro+ and call it a day

 

[SonGoku]

If Sony dare release an under specced 12nm PS5... It's over, period. Sony lost their last ace, and that's the end of their PS5 hopes and dreams.
It's not hyperbole, it's not fanboy drivel. It is LITERALLY it for PS5. Sony has nothing left, nothing they can reveal during PSX would fix the hole now created. There will be no reason left for any one, hardcore or casual, to substantively invest in a PS5. Except if they want to play DeathStranding (lol). Which will also come to XBOX2X at some point.

The age of Sony is done. The Playstation brand is finally over, maybe next decade!

 

[DeepEnigma]

If Sony dare release an under specced 12nm PS5... It's over, period. Sony lost their last ace, and that's the end of their PS5 hopes and dreams.
It's not hyperbole, it's not fanboy drivel. It is LITERALLY it for PS5. Sony has nothing left, nothing they can reveal during PSX would fix the hole now created. There will be no reason left for any one, hardcore or casual, to substantively invest in a PS5. Except if they want to play DeathStranding (lol). Which will also come to XBOX2X at some point.

The age of Sony is done. The Playstation brand is finally over, maybe next decade!

I miss these.

 

[longdi]

If Sony dare release an under specced 12nm PS5... It's over, period. Sony lost their last ace, and that's the end of their PS5 hopes and dreams.
It's not hyperbole, it's not fanboy drivel. It is LITERALLY it for PS5. Sony has nothing left, nothing they can reveal during PSX would fix the hole now created. There will be no reason left for any one, hardcore or casual, to substantively invest in a PS5. Except if they want to play DeathStranding (lol). Which will also come to XBOX2X at some point.

The age of Sony is done. The Playstation brand is finally over, maybe next decade!

You may sound angsty, but you are not far from the truth!

The reason PS4 won, for a big part, is its good specs at good price. Xbox1 was too expensive too weak. I mean specs do matter!

Unless you are going for cheap gimmicky audiences.

 

[llien]

There should be a reason why AMD focused on mid range 7nm Navi for the next year. I can't imagine PS5 coming in 2021.

We all know that AMD TeraFlops are not the same performance of Nvidia Teraflops. To bring the same performance of a GTX 1080 with 9Tflops AMD should hit 12.6Tflops with the RX VEGA 64.

You are oversimplifying it.
AMD simply crams more tflops per square mm than nvidia does, but it doesn't have to be the same way with Navi.

Regardless, I had napkin math on "if we simply take Vega and go 7nm" and Vega64-ish perf 7nm card figures do add up.

Given that Cherny stated that (apparently AMD) 8Tf is a minimum for 4k, I'd say we are guaranteed to get at least that next gen.

 

[mckmas8808]

You may sound angsty, but you are not far from the truth!

The reason PS4 won, for a big part, is its good specs at good price. Xbox1 was too expensive too weak. I mean specs do matter!

Unless you are going for cheap gimmicky audiences.

Well.........plus the fact that they had the games too.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well.........plus the fact that they had the games too.

And a global market brand recognition.

 

[longdi]

Well.........plus the fact that they had the games too.

Both consoles had games, just that PS4 ran them better. In reviews, everyone recommend the PS4 versions, and so that word of mouth spread through the social media, which is more influential as time goes.

Can see the back lash if PS5 is only a few times more powerful than Xbox1x, no thanks to Sony rushing things

 

[DeepEnigma]

Oh I can't wait to revisit this thread when everything is revealed.

 

[CloudStrife_ca]

I bought psvr for Gran turismo and i must say i cant go back to normal flat TV. It sucks because GTS doesn't support online for VR so basically i cant even play it anymore. Thats how drastic change was for me after trying VR for racing.

Even Resident Evil 7 was mindblowing in VR.

I just unlocked the F1 car, that in VR, driving around is ridiculous so I totally get what you're saying, going back to flat is kinda like ugh.

 

[Racer!]

Correct ... and? It would be better news if it was a political or whatever else motivated decision really. If you think about it, this means that they do not see enough growth opportunity and revenue to justify the investment required in helping the race to “yet a more advanced manufacturing process” to continue.

The net result is one less giant investing in speeding R&D along and that will make it riskier and more time consuming for those involved which tends to slow things down :/.

The owners not interested putting in money when others will be there before them eating up their market share. Better with more players, but it has nothing to do with the tech or the viability of future node shrinks. Became too small compared to other players. Not really surprising either considering the management.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Sony has been pushing the Pro much harder in marketing lately I noticed the past couple of months.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The owners not interested putting in money when others will be there before them eating up their market share. Better with more players, but it has nothing to do with the tech or the viability of future node shrinks. Became too small compared to other players. Not really surprising either considering the management.

Of course not super competent management does not help a super competitive market where the risk you need to take to keep playing grows exponentially with each node transition (as costs in R&D and factory investments sky rocket), but you are still dealing with a "a super competitive market where the risk you need to take to keep playing grows exponentially with each node transition"...
Do you see any foundries accelerating major manufacturing nodes transitions/reducing the time to market for new high performance nodes?

Still, this news does not come in isolation. It comes alongside news of other companies suffering to get true 10 nm (7 nm for everyone else) out, 7nm++ (7nm with EUV) actually delivering a modest advantage on both power consumption and performance improvements, and 5nm looking farther down the line and very very expensive.

Woah, better delay PS5 in that case. Kinda shitty to have a next gen consoles running on 12nm. Reminds me of PS3, too late, too big and expensive. In the case of PS5, Sony sure will drop the performance instead of bearing the costs this time.

Uhm, not sure what you mean here, sorry... This is something people have known for a while, or could reasonably expect, and have been planning around it. It affects MS, Sony, Nintendo, etc... it is just the reality matching the propaganda trying to convince consumers to buy into iterative consoles as a viable pro-consumer model (making them think that the problem is that console iterations are not releeased often enough).

 

[John Peter]

There should be a reason why AMD focused on mid range 7nm Navi for the next year. I can't imagine PS5 coming in 2021.



You are oversimplifying it.
AMD simply crams more tflops per square mm than nvidia does, but it doesn't have to be the same way with Navi.

Regardless, I had napkin math on "if we simply take Vega and go 7nm" and Vega64-ish perf 7nm card figures do add up.

Given that Cherny stated that (apparently AMD) 8Tf is a minimum for 4k, I'd say we are guaranteed to get at least that next gen.

I don't know but if I understood what you said. Will NAVI 7nm bring us more performance per ''Tflops'' than VEGA??

If that doesn't happen I'd need to say that this ''Next Gen'' console is just one more upgrade. Sony will need to show good reasons why we'll need to buy it.
I'd believe that the majority of supposed Next Gen games would run in lower resolution and simplified graphics on PS4 PRO without compromise. Except the games that will use the max power of Ryzen CPU providing sophisticated A.I, Physics and elements that a simple Jaguar is not able to realistic run.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't know but if I understood what you said. Will NAVI 7nm bring us more performance per ''Tflops'' than VEGA??

If that doesn't happen I'd need to say that this ''Next Gen'' console is just one more upgrade. Sony will need to show good reasons why we'll need to buy it.
I'd believe that the majority of supposed Next Gen games would run in lower resolution and simplified graphics on PS4 PRO without compromise. Except the games that will use the max power of Ryzen CPU providing sophisticated A.I, Physics and elements that a simple Jaguar is not able to realistic run.

Not if this "next-gen" console has 24 GBs of RAM you won't believe the bolded.

 

[Pagusas]

I feel like it is a huge mistake to launch just as raytracing is hitting the PC side, AMD has to be working on an answer to that and if the consoles jump in before thats ready games will have a canyon sized difference in look between the PC and consoles, something we havnt seen in excess for over a decade it feels like.

 

[magnumpy]

times running out, the year is almost up. well there's ~4 months left, let's see if sony can pull it off. :O

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

RAM increase. That's really important to me for what could change the outlook on nextgen games. The difference between 16 GBs and 24 GBs, in my opinion, is worth an 18 month delay.



Very very interesting. Hmmm....One wonders where tech will be going after the year 2025 then.

I think even more significant would be if they could put HVD tech or Optane-like tech in it. Both should potentially significantly lower in cost over time, and allow high amounts of bandwidth to large amounts of memory fast enough to enable a new generation of streaming, allowing the ram to act as cache, and at least for HVD allowing virtually limitless memory for games.

 

[SonGoku]

You may sound angsty, but you are not far from the truth!

The reason PS4 won, for a big part, is its good specs at good price. Xbox1 was too expensive too weak. I mean specs do matter!

Unless you are going for cheap gimmicky audiences.

I joke but im half serious venting, an under specced ps5 would be terrible, just delay it if need be and release Pro+ in the meantime

Given that Cherny stated that (apparently AMD) 8Tf is a minimum for 4k, I'd say we are guaranteed to get at least that next gen.

That would be enough to run current gen games at 4k
PS5 needs to be in the 13TF range for a proper next gen jump and 24GB RAM too

 

[Racer!]

Do you see any foundries accelerating major manufacturing nodes transitions/reducing the time to market for new high performance nodes?

No not really. If I remember correctly tsmc will introduce a 5nm node for soc/mobile 2019/20. My feeling is high performance will switch focus to 3d/tsv packaging from 7nm++ onwards. If they can figure out those pellicles/source power and get euv volume manufacturing online, path to 5nm should be a little smoother though.
Asml made some real progress last I heard.

Whats your take?

 

[longdi]

Uhm, not sure what you mean here, sorry... This is something people have known for a while, or could reasonably expect, and have been planning around it. It affects MS, Sony, Nintendo, etc... it is just the reality matching the propaganda trying to convince consumers to buy into iterative consoles as a viable pro-consumer model (making them think that the problem is that console iterations are not releeased often enough).

Well if i see PS5 running games at only 2.5x better than Xbox1x, at ultra settings at 60fps with some more polygons and smoke here and there. That does not excite me. Hence i am excited about new gfx like raytracing, so that visuals will look much different. And not the same output quality, just cleaner and faster.

I am supportive of Sony Pro iterations. I thought it is the right way instead of earlir rumored MS way of continuity.

PS5 need to be a clean break, a major upgrade in visuals over PS4, and we should not expect just the CPU side of things. If AMD cannot deliver a good GPU in 2019, then delay PS5 Cerny son!

 

[Darak]

I wonder about the reason why this gen we were stuck with Jaguar CPU's. I don't buy the argument that games were closely tied to the hardware and there would have been compatibility issues, as games should have been equally tied to the GPU or specific hardware features like Xbox One's famous SRAM, and there was no problem about upgrading or removing those. In addition, those CPUs are just X86 implementations, they should be 100% compatible. Contractual reasons, perhaps?

In any case, I don't think they are going to make the same mistake twice. I'm sure the next generation we'll see both CPU and GPU upgrades in the 'Pro' equivalents.

 

[Dante83]

This is my list for next gen
- Better cpu in particular as well as better gpu
- More RAM
- More storage (2 TB min)
- Better bluetooth and wifi
- Faster download speeds
- 4k native at 60 fps
- Improved online capabilities, less lag
- Faster blu-ray speeds with no installs from disc, everything is already loaded and the game plays the moment you put the disc in.
- Better quality controllers that doesn't wear out fast

 

[Ar¢tos]

- Faster blu-ray speeds with no installs from disc, everything is already loaded and the game plays the moment you put the disc in.

This makes no sense. How do you play if you don't install the game? How can the console predict what game you are gonna buy to have the game already downloaded and installed when you arrive home with the the disc?
PS5 to have a crystal ball included?

 

[GeNoMe]

This makes no sense. How do you play if you don't install the game? How can the console predict what game you are gonna buy to have the game already downloaded and installed when you arrive home with the the disc?
PS5 to have a crystal ball included?

Disc based media used to be played straight from the disc without even installing a single kb.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Disc based media used to be played straight from the disc without even installing a single kb.

And it created micro stutters and often audio sync problems.
I don't think that the fastest bluray speed can match a good hdd, it would just be an unnecessary bottleneck.

 

[GeNoMe]

And it created micro stutters and often audio sync problems.
I don't think that the fastest bluray speed can match a good hdd, it would just be an unnecessary bottleneck.

I think you'd be surprised at how much data a triple layered blu-ray disc can transfer. But..you'd still have to take patches, fixes etc into consideration as these would have to be installed either way. So exclusion of a HDD is out the question.

 

[Dante83]

ColdToffee clown, it was just a wish list of mine, not that everything will be fulfilled.