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[Thiagosc777]

Something occurred to me while playing Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Jonah is a loser. He is like this guy. I have no idea why he exists in the story. He is just there. I got the impression that Eidos wanted to score some diversity points and have a non-white person in a game predominantly with indigenous people to protect themselves against racism accusations. But why is he so boring?

I know that some people in the industry are SJWs, and usually they don't consider "others" as humans like them. Instead they treat them as completely different creatures to be paraded around in some kind of human zoo. But it doesn't have to be this bad! Here is a revolutionary idea, what if SJWs started treating non-white characters as human, with life objectives of their own and motivations?

Why is Jonah there? Doesn't he have a family or a job? Is he in it for pussy? Or for treasure? Or maybe he is just Lara's employee so it is just a job for him? He doesn't look like an adventurer. He doesn't have any skill that Lara might need. Lara and Jonah look like a married couple in a sexless marriage.

Before anyone point me to some wiki somewhere, this should be part of the story. I finished the game and it makes him look like a dickless freak.

Can you think of any game where a "diverse" character, by SJW definition (i.e., American centric view of the world), who is not the protagonist is actually interesting?

 

[Darak]

I hate how the current toxic climate is making people see everything through a SJW/anti-SJW lens. Jonah serves the same purpose as those two guys from Legend/Underworld, he is just an excuse to make Lara speak about the surroundings to somebody. He is boring because he is just poorly written, but I don't think he is there for diversity reasons.

I think the political influences in TR are mostly kept to a minimum. Fanservice is gone from the series, but on the other hand you have lots of gore and violence against a woman, which is a huge nope in this feminist world. I dislike modern TR's writing (in all three of them) but I'd blame the writers, not their political views.

 

[Zewp]

I hate how the current toxic climate is making people see everything through a SJW/anti-SJW lens. Jonah serves the same purpose as those two guys from Legend/Underworld, he is just an excuse to make Lara speak about the surroundings to somebody. He is boring because he is just poorly written, but I don't think he is there for diversity reasons.

I think the political influences in TR are mostly kept to a minimum. Fanservice is gone from the series, but on the other hand you have lots of gore and violence against a woman, which is a huge nope in this feminist world. I dislike modern TR's writing (in all three of them) but I'd blame the writers, not their political views.

This.

Can we not discuss why he's a poorly written character without trying to drag identity politics into the mix? I hate how everything always has to be SJW or anti-SJW. I swear the anti-SJW crowd rants about diversity just as much as the SJWs they claim to hate. We've now hit the point where the mere inclusion of a non-white side-character is enough to get someone screeching "SJW".

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I'm of the opinion that "bad writing" is a far more prevalent issue in gaming than overt agenda.

Sounds like he's just a 1-dimensional character.

 

[Spukc]

i like the new neogaf less outrage culture on both sides

 

[jshackles]

Lara and Jonah look like a married couple in a sexless marriage.

I actually had this exact same thought - but I don't think it has anything to do with his race or ethnicity.

 

[Thiagosc777]

Can we not discuss why he's a poorly written character without trying to drag identity politics into the mix? I hate how everything always has to be SJW or anti-SJW. I swear the anti-SJW crowd rants about diversity just as much as the SJWs they claim to hate. We've now hit the point where the mere inclusion of a non-white side-character is enough to get someone screeching "SJW".

That's an inference based on the current events. We live in the times of "The force is female" after all.

It's ok to disagree, but this is not something invented out of thin air.

 

[Pot Meet Kettle]

Lara and Jonah look like a married couple in a sexless marriage.

Did you just assume Lara's sexuality?
The main writer for the reboot said she wrote her as a lesbian character, on top of the main mission statement of making her as unsexy as possible.

Fanservice is gone from the series, but on the other hand you have lots of gore and violence against a woman, which is a huge nope in this feminist world.

That was sorted out as early as the first game in the reboot.
A male developer was gushing how they made Lara's emotions so realistic so the player could feel how she was scared, in pain, and at one point in a real danger of being raped. Gaming journalism took the appropriate measures against that shitlord who implied the game was torture porn.
It threatened a game that was about taking back Tomb Raider and removing all the parts that could be found sexy by 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖒𝖆𝖑𝖊 𝖌𝖆𝖟𝖊.

Male developer was thrown down the memory hole, some scenes were cut, and all what remained is an empowering herstory of reboot Lara's struggles as she explores her own inner demons of self-pity and emotionlessness that stands between her and her true calling as the quintessential Mary Sue. Some hardships like cultural appropriation and T R O P E S were in the way, but those callouts didn't prevent the game of reaching its flawed feminist masterpiece. (Also fuck old fatshaming, ableist platforming, problematic Lara)

 

[Zewp]

That's an inference based on the current events. We live in the times of "The force is female" after all.

It's ok to disagree, but this is not something invented out of thin air.

I mean, the Tomb Raider reboot games have always had poorly written characters, right back to TR 2013. Lara especially. The girl who broke down into tears after killing her first human and from there just went on to callously slaughter 100s more. The sheer brutality and unnecessary viciousness of Lara in Shadow of the Tomb Raider is staggering.

The fact that in a series that has always had poorly written characters, you single out a single poorly written character just because he's brown, is pretty telling.

 

[Thiagosc777]

The fact that in a series that has always had poorly written characters, you single out a single poorly written character just because he's brown, is pretty telling.

Would it make more sense to talk about some random NPC? He is part of the story, that's why he needed to be better portrayed.

 

[Xenon]

Jonah is cool enough for what he is, a soundboard for Laura to tell he player wtf is going on. To break up the monotony of her talking to herself. Any Character in that position would be a bit weak. Though in this one he seems to be elevated or relegated to the role of Lara's conscience. I've always like Johan, he is one of the few characters who has an emotional impact. Not that that matters to me much, because I like Lara being all about the mission.

Seems like you are reaching for some racial angle here, where there really isn't one.

 

[ipukespiders]

Jonah plays the part of the weak bumbling male. It's pretty common in movies, tv shows, commercials. Not to worry, Lara will save the day.

 

[Thiagosc777]

eems like you are reaching for some racial angle here, where there really isn't one.

I was reaching for some SJW angle. He is a man who poses no danger, either physically or emotionally. He is neither smart nor physically capable.

 

[hecatomb]

I miss the old days of gaming were people didn't cry about make believe fictional video game characters. I really think though some people getting offended by some video game characters have some kind of metal issues, cause these characters are not even real.

 

[Thiagosc777]

I miss the old days of gaming were people didn't cry about make believe fictional video game characters. I really think though some people getting offended by some video game characters have some kind of metal issues, cause these characters are not even real.

Nobody is offended, I am just pointing out the neutered man and the potential of SJW art.

 

[hecatomb]

Nobody is offended, I am just pointing out the neutered man and the potential of SJW art.

I'm just pointing out I miss the old days. Though there were some bad characters back then like Lester the unlikely

 

[MisterBrimstone]

Where is the loser in that video OP? I'm a little distracted.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

The main writer for the reboot said she wrote her as a lesbian character, on top of the main mission statement of making her as unsexy as possible.

This can't be true, right?

 

[Humdinger]

I was reaching for some SJW angle. He is a man who poses no danger, either physically or emotionally. He is neither smart nor physically capable.

In Rise of the Tomb Raider, he functioned as a one-dimensional plot device and little more. He was someone who was there to be rescued by Lara, and that's about it.

I completely agree that he's a paper-thin character. It's part of the bad writing of the series. I can't really see an SJW angle to it, though, unless you want to say it's a reversal of the usual "trope" about men rescuing women. He's the big fat damsel in distress.

 

[SonGoku]

Did you just assume Lara's sexuality?
The main writer for the reboot said she wrote her as a lesbian character, on top of the main mission statement of making her as unsexy as possible.

wut? Really no joke post?
This political bs in games is getting out of hand

 

[Thiagosc777]

In Rise of the Tomb Raider, he functioned as a one-dimensional plot device and little more. He was someone who was there to be rescued by Lara, and that's about it.

I completely agree that he's a paper-thin character. It's part of the bad writing of the series. I can't really see an SJW angle to it, though, unless you want to say it's a reversal of the usual "trope" about men rescuing women. He's the big fat damsel in distress.

I don't think him being incompetent is a problem. It'd be perfectly fine to have a guy being rescued. But they should at least give him a motivation, like he loves Lara or he is looking for treasure. He needs to have a stake in it, to justify putting his life at risk.

 

[BANGS]

B-b-but muh duhversuhtee...

 

[petran79]

Can you think of any game where a "diverse" character, by SJW definition (i.e., American centric view of the world), who is not the protagonist is actually interesting?

When you let developers do things themselves instead of screaming for attention.....

Fans went even further, having created over 100 episodes in TV format!

https://www.maniac-mansion-mania.com/index.php/en/

 

[brap]

He's there to make Lara look smrt and STRONK

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

I don't give a shit about 'diversity' or 'representation' in games.

Just make your game as you see fit, and I'll decide whether or not I want buy it.

 

[Randybro]

I mean, the Tomb Raider reboot games have always had poorly written characters, right back to TR 2013. Lara especially. The girl who broke down into tears after killing her first human and from there just went on to callously slaughter 100s more. The sheer brutality and unnecessary viciousness of Lara in Shadow of the Tomb Raider is staggering.

The fact that in a series that has always had poorly written characters, you single out a single poorly written character just because he's brown, is pretty telling.

lol I noticed the same thing. It's pretty funny especially given this line in the OP.

know that some people in the industry are SJWs, and usually they don't consider "others" as humans like them. Instead they treat them as completely different creatures to be paraded around in some kind of human zoo.

 

[Humdinger]

I don't think him being incompetent is a problem. It'd be perfectly fine to have a guy being rescued. But they should at least give him a motivation, like he loves Lara or he is looking for treasure. He needs to have a stake in it, to justify putting his life at risk.

I got the sense that he was very loyal and committed to Lara. That's why he showed up as the plot device in RotTR. "I searched everywhere and finally found you." He's not in love with her, but he's a very loyal, devoted friend. I mean, the character is very shallow, but I can see that much in him, at least.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Did the OP just make this thread only because the character is non-white?

 

[Azurro]

I got the sense that he was very loyal and committed to Lara. That's why he showed up as the plot device in RotTR. "I searched everywhere and finally found you." He's not in love with her, but he's a very loyal, devoted friend. I mean, the character is very shallow, but I can see that much in him, at least.

Yeah....no, he's kind of there as a trope reversal machine. He doesn't have a penis, but he wags his tail and follows behind Lara all the time, while she is just off to do her own thing and only occasionally remembers that she has to care about Jonah. He reminds her of how fantastic she is to relieve her of any mental anguish from her actions, to absolve her from her white guilt. Of course, the diversity points are included, and his character can be defined by "Hey Lara ..." or "Where are you Lara?".

He's not really a character, like the rest of the characters, he's just a thing to tick boxes of representation and feminism and other isms. Identity Politics writing is so boring, I'm not going to buy Shadow since it seems the plot doesn't get any better from the reviews.

 

[Madflavor]

I hate how the current toxic climate is making people see everything through a SJW/anti-SJW lens.

Agreed. But unfortunately it's the witch hunt for our generation. It'll go away someday and be replaced by something else, but Identity Politics will continue to consume our nation for a very long time.

The only fast way Identity Politics could go away, is for a catastrophic event to happen that shakes the world, and overshadows "muh-diversity". Otherwise we'll just have to wait til we're all old and miserable before it's finally gone away slowly and naturally.

 

[Randybro]

Yeah....no, he's kind of there as a trope reversal machine. He doesn't have a penis, but he wags his tail and follows behind Lara all the time, while she is just off to do her own thing and only occasionally remembers that she has to care about Jonah. He reminds her of how fantastic she is to relieve her of any mental anguish from her actions, to absolve her from her white guilt. Of course, the diversity points are included, and his character can be defined by "Hey Lara ..." or "Where are you Lara?".

He's not really a character, like the rest of the characters, he's just a thing to tick boxes of representation and feminism and other isms. Identity Politics writing is so boring, I'm not going to buy Shadow since it seems the plot doesn't get any better from the reviews.

Are you guys kidding??? He's just a poorly written character like many characters in this new series and many from the other. TB used to be about Lara kicking asses and little else.

 

[Pot Meet Kettle]

wut? Really no joke post?
This political bs in games is getting out of hand

Both Rhianna Pratchett (2013's game writer, Killscreen interview) and Gail Simone (comic adaptation/continuation) said in interviews they wrote Lara with a lesbian characterization in mind, and tried to include an explicit romance with her and Sam that wasn't ultimately allowed, but the subtext permeated most of the trilogy.

The writer laments she didn't make it explicit enough, but then she comments on fan theories saying those that ship her with male characters are bad, and those that ship her with female characters (Sam) are good. Moreover, a scene with said character (Sam) dying, after Lara kills her because demonic possession, was considered in part because of that semi-official ship, then rejected for similar reasons.

You know, we didn't actually touch on Lara's sexuality in the game. She kisses Alex on the cheek. He has a crush on Lara, but it's actually a sort of respect crush as much as anything else! It's a sweet crush, which makes that moment more poignant. But people have talked about Lara's boyfriends and stuff like that, and I'm like, "No, no, I don't want that to be part of it!" This is about her. I didn't feel like a boyfriend or that side of things fit into it. But I do like the fact that people speculate about what Lara's relationship to Sam might have been, or that people speculate about Faith and Celeste. It's good that people care enough about those characters to think about those sorts of things.

I'm more surprised people already forgot about all of this. Game journalists were hailing that reboot as a revelation and a feminist victory because of these reasons plus the significant lack of old school Lara's attitude, confidence and sexiness. Which was problematic because of, in order,

• self-pity oppression stories are far "better" than someone owning who needs no savior (same reasons why Bayonetta "sucks")
• no room for introspection for cultural appropriation and fetishizing ancient cultures, colonialism, adventure and escapism
• also pleases the male gaze or fuels unrealistic standards of beauty. A form of wish fulfillment in either cases that needs to go.

All of these "problems" were taken care of in the "reboot".

 

[manfestival]

I feel like this belongs in politics and not gaming

 

[Humdinger]

Yeah....no, he's kind of there as a trope reversal machine. He doesn't have a penis, but he wags his tail and follows behind Lara all the time, while she is just off to do her own thing and only occasionally remembers that she has to care about Jonah. He reminds her of how fantastic she is to relieve her of any mental anguish from her actions, to absolve her from her white guilt. Of course, the diversity points are included, and his character can be defined by "Hey Lara ..." or "Where are you Lara?".

He's not really a character, like the rest of the characters, he's just a thing to tick boxes of representation and feminism and other isms. Identity Politics writing is so boring, I'm not going to buy Shadow since it seems the plot doesn't get any better from the reviews.

Could be. I haven't played Shadow yet. I was just going off my experience of Rise. Rise certainly didn't seem like what you're saying, though.

I tend to agree with the people who're saying it's just bad writing and shallow characterization. I'm not seeing any real SJW stuff here, at least in my experience with the first couple games. As I say, I've yet to play Shadow, so maybe it takes a drastic turn for the worse in that regard, I don't know.

 

[SonGoku]

I feel like this belongs in politics and not gaming

Tell that to the developers

 

[royox]

Can you think of any game where a "diverse" character, by SJW definition (i.e., American centric view of the world), who is not the protagonist is actually interesting?

Yeah!! Omega in Final Fantasy XIV. It's the final boss of the last raid and it's Gender Fluid.

Omega is trying to find the perfect form to beat the Warriors of Light and after transforming in a FLUID sphere of metal it divided into 2 parts and became a Male and a Female Warrior at the same time!!!

So if it's FLUID...and Male and Female at the same time...it's literally Gender Fluid....right? RIGHT?

 

[Velius]

White men are stupid, and need to die
EDIT:

Guys, I'm really sorry. I've reflected on my post and I wish to amend it. I hope you understand. What I really meant to say was:

Straight white men are stupid, and need to die

 

[royox]

White men are stupid, and need to die
EDIT:

Guys, I'm really sorry. I've reflected on my post and I wish to amend it. I hope you understand. What I really meant to say was:

Straight white men are stupid, and need to die

You forgot to add "cis" to that xD

 

[Velius]

You forgot to add "cis" to that xD

God dammit

 

[120v]

honestly the last three TR games are poorly written overall IMO. i wouldn't ascribe any of it to the "diversity in games" can of worms

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

Both Rhianna Pratchett (2013's game writer, Killscreen interview) and Gail Simone (comic adaptation/continuation) said in interviews they wrote Lara with a lesbian characterization in mind, and tried to include an explicit romance with her and Sam that wasn't ultimately allowed, but the subtext permeated most of the trilogy.

The writer laments she didn't make it explicit enough, but then she comments on fan theories saying those that ship her with male characters are bad, and those that ship her with female characters (Sam) are good. Moreover, a scene with said character (Sam) dying, after Lara kills her because demonic possession, was considered in part because of that semi-official ship, then rejected for similar reasons.



I'm more surprised people already forgot about all of this. Game journalists were hailing that reboot as a revelation and a feminist victory because of these reasons plus the significant lack of old school Lara's attitude, confidence and sexiness. Which was problematic because of, in order,

• self-pity oppression stories are far "better" than someone owning who needs no savior (same reasons why Bayonetta "sucks")
• no room for introspection for cultural appropriation and fetishizing ancient cultures, colonialism, adventure and escapism
• also pleases the male gaze or fuels unrealistic standards of beauty. A form of wish fulfillment in either cases that needs to go.

All of these "problems" were taken care of in the "reboot".

Fuck, now I wish RotTR to crush and burn so some new MORE talented developers take the franchise and elevate it to the greatness it deserves.

 

[MayauMiao]

Both Rhianna Pratchett (2013's game writer, Killscreen interview) and Gail Simone (comic adaptation/continuation) said in interviews they wrote Lara with a lesbian characterization in mind, and tried to include an explicit romance with her and Sam that wasn't ultimately allowed, but the subtext permeated most of the trilogy.

Jeez it seems like they want every strong female characters to be lesbian because the thought of falling for men shows a sign of weakness.

 

[EDMIX]

I hate how the current toxic climate is making people see everything through a SJW/anti-SJW lens. Jonah serves the same purpose as those two guys from Legend/Underworld, he is just an excuse to make Lara speak about the surroundings to somebody. He is boring because he is just poorly written, but I don't think he is there for diversity reasons.

I think the political influences in TR are mostly kept to a minimum. Fanservice is gone from the series, but on the other hand you have lots of gore and violence against a woman, which is a huge nope in this feminist world. I dislike modern TR's writing (in all three of them) but I'd blame the writers, not their political views.

100000% Agreed.

Every developer will have some belief, so who they vote for or pray too is irrelevant.

Sometimes a bad game is just a bad game. I don't even get issue as what are we to do? Start putting devices on folks heads to read their minds and only play games by those who agree with our political or religious or economical views? smh. Just silly.

 

[EDMIX]

I was reaching for some SJW angle. He is a man who poses no danger, either physically or emotionally. He is neither smart nor physically capable.

? Ok...yet people like this really exist. Sooooo I don't get the whole "agenda" angle as you might just be talking about a poorly written character.

 

[brian0057]

Both Rhianna Pratchett (2013's game writer, Killscreen interview) and Gail Simone (comic adaptation/continuation) said in interviews they wrote Lara with a lesbian characterization in mind, and tried to include an explicit romance with her and Sam that wasn't ultimately allowed, but the subtext permeated most of the trilogy.

The writer laments she didn't make it explicit enough, but then she comments on fan theories saying those that ship her with male characters are bad, and those that ship her with female characters (Sam) are good. Moreover, a scene with said character (Sam) dying, after Lara kills her because demonic possession, was considered in part because of that semi-official ship, then rejected for similar reasons.



I'm more surprised people already forgot about all of this. Game journalists were hailing that reboot as a revelation and a feminist victory because of these reasons plus the significant lack of old school Lara's attitude, confidence and sexiness. Which was problematic because of, in order,

• self-pity oppression stories are far "better" than someone owning who needs no savior (same reasons why Bayonetta "sucks")
• no room for introspection for cultural appropriation and fetishizing ancient cultures, colonialism, adventure and escapism
• also pleases the male gaze or fuels unrealistic standards of beauty. A form of wish fulfillment in either cases that needs to go.

All of these "problems" were taken care of in the "reboot".

If I'm perfectlly honest, I kinda liked the whole Lara/Sam dynamic in Tomb Raider 2013. It made sense within the story, it was in service to the characters and the plot, and it didn't feel forced. Maybe near the end of the game it can get a little hamfisted, but I didn't have too many problems with it. I mean, it's no Deus Ex but I liked it.

As for the changes to Lara, I find the 2013 model a lot more atractive than in the following entries. They went a little overboard with the whole "let's make her suffer every 10 meters" but I liked it.

Also, Gail Simone? That's your problem righ there.

 

[Zewp]

He reminds her of how fantastic she is to relieve her of any mental anguish from her actions, to absolve her from her white guilt.

Within the first hour of Shadow he loses his shit and shouts at Lara for being reckless and impulsive after she basically sets off the apocalypse and wants to rush off to do the next reckless, impulsive thing.

So no.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

https://www.vg247.com/2019/01/02/diversity-important-video-game-much-gameplay/

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Did you just assume Lara's sexuality?
The main writer for the reboot said she wrote her as a lesbian character, on top of the main mission statement of making her as unsexy as possible.

And this is why the reboot is a failure and is poorly written. Because it just panders to a certain crowd instead of focusing on the important thing: making a GREAT story and great game. Taking already established characters and stripping them of their essential aspects is terrible, in my book. And Lara was cool not because she was sexy but for her badass attitude and fierce appearance. She was someone not to mess with. Current Lara is just a bland character with bipolar personality who is not believable at all as a main character.

This is something I despise on current developers or filmakers. You want to push your agenda? Fine with it, make a NEW IP but don't screw already existint IPs with a big fanbase. Sames goes with Ghostbusters, Iron Man , Star Wars, or whatever. All of them have bombed for the same reasons.

You have success cases like TLOU or Overwatch in which developers have cared FIRST for a good story or background instead of cheap ass politics. This is what tell the good from the mediocre.

 

[Sixkiller]

We live in the times of "The force is female" after all.

It's ok to disagree, but this is not something invented out of thin air.

You do know that 'the force is female' is a Nike slogan created for a womens' sportswear range, rather than anything to do with Star Wars, right?

Because one photo opportunity with a t-shirt from said sportswear range led to a whole host of conspiracy theories being 'invented out of thin air'...

 

[Thiagosc777]

You do know that 'the force is female' is a Nike slogan created for a womens' sportswear range, rather than anything to do with Star Wars, right?

Because one photo opportunity with a t-shirt from said sportswear range led to a whole host of conspiracy theories being 'invented out of thin air'...

Why would anyone use that woman for modeling? Oh yea, becuase she was the head of Lucasfilm and the force is a key element of Star Wars. It was a clear double meaning there. Maybe not for NPCs who can only understand the literal meaning of things.