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[Doczu]

So we love now the prequels or what?

 

[MilkyJoe]

So we love now the prequels or what?

No, they are still shit, but you can at least appreciate they actually went somewhere.

 

[Scotty W]

Imagine being so fragile that any time a film has even a hint of tragedy, your whole world falls apart. When something happens to a character who you identify with, it is literally an attack on YOU PERSONALLY, limiting and destroying your ability to live. What a reversal from the historical use of tragedy, which was meant to cleanse the emotions, and GIVE you the ability to live.

'Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker' Lets Rey Down In The Most Unforgivable Way Possible - SlashFilm

Everything that happens with Rey in The Rise of Skywalker is a fundamental betrayal of a character who means so much to so many.

www.slashfilm.com

For anyone who’s struggled with isolation or loneliness, this ending is absolutely crushing. It tells those people that no matter what they do, they’ll always be alone; that their closest companions will all die; and through Ben’s absence, that the person with whom they connected most intimately will be straight-up forgotten. It confirms deep, terrible fears. Final images mean a lot, and this final image is damaging and hurtful, made all the crueller because Rey’s passed over in favour of cramming in yet another bit of Star Wars iconography.

These movies are important to people. People identify with and invest in these characters. Maybe we have to “turn off our brains” to accept nonsensical plotting, but it’s a little harder to turn off our hearts.

​

Earlier in the film, as Rey fights Kylo Ren for control of an escaping transport, she strains, and strains, and strains – and lets out a bout of lightning from her fingers, destroying the transport. It’s a terrifying moment for Rey. She’s suddenly frightened of her own power for the first time, like a kid who accidentally fired a gun they found in the closet. That moment opens up a wealth of possibilities for Rey to develop – perhaps having her grapple with her own dark side; perhaps bringing the saga to terms with the fact that people contain multitudes; perhaps lending some actual balance to the Force. But the lightning’s only significance is as foreshadowing for the big reveal that she’s Palpatine’s granddaughter. That’s emblematic of her entire story in this film: character development walked backwards for an excuse to give fans something familiar and “cool”.

Star Wars: The Force Awakens introduced us to a girl with abandonment issues who put on a dusty old space helmet and looked to the stars, yearning to be somebody. Numerous audience members no doubt saw themselves in Rey. The Last Jedi sent those audience members a message unprecedented in Star Wars: that even “nobodies” can become somebodies – they need only muster the spark to do so. Over-optimistic? Maybe. But in The Rise of Skywalker, anyone who identified with that girl in the desert is outright denied that optimism, told that their importance is pre-defined by a lineage out of their control. And worst of all, in its ultimate cinematic statement, it tells you that you’ll just end up alone anyway.

In another desert.

Surrounded by ghosts.

 

[Doczu]

No, they are still shit, but you can at least appreciate they actually went somewhere.

*Screams in Mustafar_BBQ*

 

[MilkyJoe]

*Screams in Mustafar_BBQ*

They are not as bad as the Disney trilogy, if that helps?

 

[Saruhashi]

Imagine being so sheltered that any time a film has even a hint of tragedy, your whole world falls apart.

'Star Wars: The Rise Of Skywalker' Lets Rey Down In The Most Unforgivable Way Possible - SlashFilm

Everything that happens with Rey in The Rise of Skywalker is a fundamental betrayal of a character who means so much to so many.

www.slashfilm.com

Haha. Of course it's Andrew Todd. The guy is a fucking grade-A twat.

I don't know if articles like this are supposed to be taken seriously or if they are intended as a kind of parody of people who felt TLJ took Luke in the wrong direction.

I mean, I don't disagree that the ending of the movie was poor. Yes, it was kind of sad to see that Rey just ends up out there on her own and that is really in opposition to how Return of the Jedi shows them all together and happy.

On the other hand I think it's absurd to ask writers to think "what about people in the real world who struggle with isolation and loneliness" and then write their endings out of some moral obligation to real life loners.

Way back at the beginning of the trilogy I really hoped for some kind of "double turn". Kylo Ren would turn to the light side and Rey would turn to the darkside. Maybe at the end of my imaginary episode 8. Meaning that in episode 9 everything is flipped completely on it's head.

Articles like this only illustrate why Lucasfilm are really put in an impossible spot when they cast characters like Rey.

They did EVERYTHING to make her overpowered and perfect and unbeatable. FFS in this movie she is basically space Jesus. Healing people and whatnot.
EVEN THEN you still have idiots like this moaning because she was on her own at the end of the movie.

"People might identify with this character so you'd better not deny them a satisfying conclusion".

OK. So we can make the same argument about Luke in TLJ then?

It's daft to take a movie franchise that contains a core idea of people "turning" from light to dark and dark to light and then basically demand that, because the audience might identify with a brand new character, you cannot do certain things with certain characters.

Might be irrelevant anyway as I think he is taking the piss.
After TLJ and the whole drama with Luke's character I find it strange that a person who loved that movie would come out with some of these things as criticisms of ROS.

"the most unforgivable is how it treats its main character"
"it turns all her positive, hard-won self-actualisation into ominous foreshadowing for the return of the wrinkly-face sparky-finger man"
"The Rise of Skywalker’s ending, though, truly does Rey dirty"
"These movies are important to people. People identify with and invest in these characters. Maybe we have to “turn off our brains” to accept nonsensical plotting, but it’s a little harder to turn off our hearts."
"But in The Rise of Skywalker, anyone who identified with that girl in the desert is outright denied that optimism"

When these, or similar, arguments were made against TLJ and it's treatment of Luke we were told it's all toxic masculinity and entitled fanboys and probably just Russian trolls and bots that have a problem.

Now it's OK though.

 

[sol_bad]

The death star was 150km dimater at smallest and 900km at largest. Lets say its 200km diameter. if that crashes into your ocean, its not physical possible to view it from one beach only. Its about as wide as the Florida pan handle. In the movie they only showed one beach you are right. but logic dictates that is not possible.

You do know that there are planets out there that are thousands of times bigger than Earth yeah?

 

[Doczu]

They are not as bad as the Disney trilogy, if that helps?

*Happy Obi face*

 

[VertigoOA]

I think I love the prequels now...

You don’t know what you had until a completely worthless story is told across 3 Disney movies.

Now it’s marvel. Nothing fucking matters

 

[Doczu]

They are not as bad as the Disney trilogy, if that helps?

But to be a bit serious now - yeah the prequels have their issues, but in the end, they are prime meme quality, especially the campy and enjoyable RotS. You could see that Ian had a blast playing Palpatine and secretly the whole movie is a masterpiece... Well if you cut out the reason why Padme died...

 

[VertigoOA]

Am I the only person who like loves Watto. Criticism of him being a Jewish stereotype flew over my head back then; maybe because he reminded me of the Greek cafe owner boss I had in my teenage years... I thought it was a true-to-life character type and totally made sense. The bit of familiarity made him more enjoyable. He’s a dick — makes him an actually fun character.

I wonder what would be if Jerry Seinfeld was Jar Jar. probably amazing actually.

 

[MilkyJoe]

But to be a bit serious now - yeah the prequels have their issues, but in the end, they are prime meme quality, especially the campy and enjoyable RotS. You could see that Ian had a blast playing Palpatine and secretly the whole movie is a masterpiece... Well if you cut out the reason why Padme died...

The best thing they can do with the prequels is make a live action Clone Wars style TV series. where you can feel like you actually like Anakin.

The biggest problem with the prequels is that Anakin was always a fucking arsehole, so you didn't care about his (unconvincing) turn to the dark side. The clone wars is a much better take.

 

[Doczu]

I think I love the prequels now...

You don’t know what you had until a completely worthless story is told across 3 Disney movies.

Now it’s marvel. Nothing fucking matters

George right now:

1. Sell the rights to Disney for a motherlode of cash
2. Watch them handle it so shitty they make the prequels look like cinemas finest
3. Buyback from Disney for a quarter of value
4. Make your own sequel trilogy with the leftover cash and purge the Disney canon

 

[Nymphae]

 

[Doczu]

The best thing they can do with the prequels is make a live action Clone Wars style TV series. where you can feel like you actually like Anakin.

The biggest problem with the prequels is that Anakin was always a fucking arsehole, so you didn't care about his (unconvincing) turn to the dark side. The clone wars is a much better take.

The best thing the prequel trilogy gave us was the Clone Wars. I would be down for a live action one, but only with Hayden as the lead. Sorry, i dig him as Anakin, he worked with what he was given and his looks as Anakin can't be copied
They even changed the look of Ani in the upcoming final season of Clone Wars to resemble him more.

And regarding him being an arsehole:



If you take a step back you can see he was just overconfident and never apreciated so much that he started being a dick.

 

[VertigoOA]

It’s strange in a way. Even what we thought was cringeworthy dialogue... sticks with you.

I forgive the movies to an extent because George will say himself that me made kids movies. Visually they mostly are. But there’s tons of substance, world building, lore and the machinations of how the emperor does it is fun to see.

George had a way to make you enjoy things that are objectively shit sometimes.

Clone Wars cartoon was cringeworthy as well but then there’s stories within it that you think are awesome.

I guess that’s kinda what happens when there’s actual passion found in the creation process... there’s something there instead of just being soulless.

why George!

 

[Nester99]

You do know that there are planets out there that are thousands of times bigger than Earth yeah?

How does that change the point that the large Death Star ruble in the ocean should be visible from multiple vantage points?

 

[sol_bad]

How does that change the point that the large Death Star ruble in the ocean should be visible from multiple vantage points?

If a planet is 1000 times bigger than Earth than it won't be visable from multiple vantage points.

 

[Nester99]

If a planet is 1000 times bigger than Earth than it won't be visable from multiple vantage points.

That makes no sense at all from the stand point of a human viewing 200+ km of ruble.

Edit. Pretty sure they are on Yavin witch is not 1000 times the size of earth due to similar gravity

 

[Birdo]

#thankyourianjohnson has been trending on Twitter for two days.

It's a cringe-fest of "Thanks for empowering women".

 

[DeafTourette]

#thankyourianjohnson has been trending on Twitter for two days.

It's a cringe-fest of "Thanks for empowering women".

George did it first ... And JJ did it before Rian.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

So we love now the prequels or what?

I always loved the prequels not sure bout you guys. Was there in 2002 with my popcorn cheering on Dracula vs Yoda fight just having the time of my life.

Prequels are like live action comic strips or cartoons where as ST is like a YA novel

How does that change the point that the large Death Star ruble in the ocean should be visible from multiple vantage points?

Your thinking about this way more than the writers. It’s kind of a shut off your brain movie. Not that there’s anything wrong with that!

 

[Nester99]

best part of the new movie is the hard core burn on Lucas and Vader. Rey Buries Anakin’s lightsaber in sand. SAND! It gets EVERYWHERE!

 

[Nester99]

I always loved the prequels not sure bout you guys. Was there in 2002 with my popcorn cheering on Dracula vs Yoda fight just having the time of my life.

Prequels are like live action comic strips or cartoons where as ST is like a YA novel

Your thinking about this way more than the writers. It’s kind of a shut off your brain movie. Not that there’s anything wrong with that!

You are correct. It was a tangent of an earlier discussion when a poster asked why some people thought the carved map dagger was silly.

 

[DeafTourette]

About the ending...

Once the war has been won, they DO all celebrate... That embrace with Poe, Finn and Rey was pretty emotional to me. That was a "we did it! We're free!" moment.

Her being on tattoine to bury the lightsabers was a symbolic burial of the only 2 people who were like parents to her. They were her masters and she misses them. This is some time after the end of the war. She's honoring them in death by taking on their last name. She rejects the Palpatine name because she has no connection to it. But Skywalker? She definitely does. This is her homage to her two masters, her two surrogate parents. In TLJ, she tried doing the right thing and told Luke, and I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact words so it's more 'akin to', "I'll fix it. You'll see! Don't worry, I'll make you proud!"

She clearly loved Luke and Leia. She wanted them to be proud of her.

 

[V4skunk]

Lol at people arguing about the death star.
In ROS the part of the death star we see is the super laser section where Palpatines throne room was.
I'd say the scale looks about right considering the death star is apparently 160km in diameter.

 

[decisions]

Fuck Rian Johnson. I hope he never lays another finger on Star Wars ever again.

What is in that movie that could possibly be deserving of so much nerdy, immature vitriol? It just seems like you are using anger as a way to cover up that if you analyzed the film with an unbiased eye, you would find that it tells a great story and is thematically consistent.

TLJ was what was necessary to have Star Wars be meaningful outside of characters related to those in the OT. Luke’s whole arc is about his final deed teaching to Rey that the Force goes beyond the Jedi, so that it is not tied down to old characters. Then he has like, the most badass peaceful demonstration ever which is a perfect sendoff for a seasoned hero.

Generally people who dislike TLJ don’t understand storytelling and themes, or don’t want to accept Star Wars progressing beyond the OT.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

TLJ was what was necessary to have Star Wars be meaningful outside of characters related to those in the OT.

By having a movie where the new characters are all shoved to the side so that we can ponder Luke for half the runtime? LOL no thanks.

They had an opportunity to show us some new stuff with that movie and they chose not to. Making Luke the ultimate myth legend at the end even fucks up its own message. How come the hero the kids play with aren’t Rey Finn or Poe? I thought this was about moving beyond the past and now we regress to making it all about Luke? The film has confusing messaging.

Then he has like, the most badass peaceful demonstration ever which is a perfect sendoff for a seasoned hero.

Yes peacefully threatening his nephew with endless war while brandishing a sword at him. So peaceful /s

Also I guess in order to “move beyond the past” or some such nonsense we have to make the central figure in the climax the lead character of the OT. If we wanted to move past him they should have had the new characters do something of value in that ending.

Generally people who dislike TLJ don’t understand storytelling and themes, or don’t want to accept Star Wars progressing beyond the OT.

Generally this justification sounds like it came from an elitist douchebag

 

[kunonabi]

Am I the only person who like loves Watto. Criticism of him being a Jewish stereotype flew over my head back then; maybe because he reminded me of the Greek cafe owner boss I had in my teenage years... I thought it was a true-to-life character type and totally made sense. The bit of familiarity made him more enjoyable. He’s a dick — makes him an actually fun character.

I wonder what would be if Jerry Seinfeld was Jar Jar. probably amazing actually.

Watto is freaking great especially those moments where he isnt being a prick. His dejection at losing at Ani in the TPM and the way he lights up when he returns in AOTC are great little character beats for him. He never sounded Jewish to me personally.

 

[Saruhashi]

What is in that movie that could possibly be deserving of so much nerdy, immature vitriol? It just seems like you are using anger as a way to cover up that if you analyzed the film with an unbiased eye, you would find that it tells a great story and is thematically consistent.

TLJ was what was necessary to have Star Wars be meaningful outside of characters related to those in the OT. Luke’s whole arc is about his final deed teaching to Rey that the Force goes beyond the Jedi, so that it is not tied down to old characters. Then he has like, the most badass peaceful demonstration ever which is a perfect sendoff for a seasoned hero.

Generally people who dislike TLJ don’t understand storytelling and themes, or don’t want to accept Star Wars progressing beyond the OT.

"It just seems like you are using anger as a way to cover up that if you analyzed the film with an unbiased eye, you would find that it tells a great story and is thematically consistent."

"Generally people who dislike TLJ don’t understand storytelling and themes, or don’t want to accept Star Wars progressing beyond the OT."

You're not doing yourself any favors here.

As one of the people who really loved Death Stranding I found myself doing this quite a lot when I was having discussions and debates about that game. Making the assertion that other people didn't "get" it or implying that people were too thick to understand the game etc. A couple of times I had typed out replies that I never posted because when I read them back I just sounded like a total asshole.

There's a big problem, I think, when you've convinced yourself that you like a piece of entertainment because you are smart enough to get it. A bigger problem then if you go around acting like you are smarter simply because a movie pandered to that side of you that needs to feel intellectually superior.

The fact of the matter is that the Internet is full of smart, thoughtful and very funny takedowns of TLJ. Sure, there is angry, irrational and poorly thought out criticism too. You'll never be able to get away from that.

The story is poor. It is not thematically consistent. It's the same old narrative and themes from the OT. Just this time it appeals to the ego of people who are not nearly as smart as they think they are.

What's in the movie that is so awesome that you are willing to go as far as to belittle people who don't like it just to defend the film?
Tell you what, the movie can't be that good if the only arguments you have in support of it are ad hominem.

Oh, that's right, we're all dumb and only big brain intellectuals like you can truly appreciate it.
Especially that scene where Luke Skywalker drank milk from an alien tit. Such intellect. Such thematic consistency.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

TLJ is the Rick and Morty of SW. you have to have an high iq.

 

[decisions]

"It just seems like you are using anger as a way to cover up that if you analyzed the film with an unbiased eye, you would find that it tells a great story and is thematically consistent."

"Generally people who dislike TLJ don’t understand storytelling and themes, or don’t want to accept Star Wars progressing beyond the OT."

You're not doing yourself any favors here.

As one of the people who really loved Death Stranding I found myself doing this quite a lot when I was having discussions and debates about that game. Making the assertion that other people didn't "get" it or implying that people were too thick to understand the game etc. A couple of times I had typed out replies that I never posted because when I read them back I just sounded like a total asshole.

There's a big problem, I think, when you've convinced yourself that you like a piece of entertainment because you are smart enough to get it. A bigger problem then if you go around acting like you are smarter simply because a movie pandered to that side of you that needs to feel intellectually superior.

The fact of the matter is that the Internet is full of smart, thoughtful and very funny takedowns of TLJ. Sure, there is angry, irrational and poorly thought out criticism too. You'll never be able to get away from that.

The story is poor. It is not thematically consistent. It's the same old narrative and themes from the OT. Just this time it appeals to the ego of people who are not nearly as smart as they think they are.

What's in the movie that is so awesome that you are willing to go as far as to belittle people who don't like it just to defend the film?
Tell you what, the movie can't be that good if the only arguments you have in support of it are ad hominem.

Oh, that's right, we're all dumb and only big brain intellectuals like you can truly appreciate it.
Especially that scene where Luke Skywalker drank milk from an alien tit. Such intellect. Such thematic consistency.

This post is hypocrisy, you just deconstructed a straw man and dodged the issue to attack me and act like you have the moral high ground. This is an ad hominem. Why are you making assumptions about how smart I think I am in relation to everyone based on a reply to an extremely immature post? Do you think "fuck Rian Johnson" is a good critique of TLJ?

When you have an audience as big as Star Wars has, the truth is that most people who watch them don't understand storytelling and themes. This is because it is a relatively rare thing to understand storytelling, you have to spend a lot of time analyzing stories and thinking deeply about them. This is why we have critics. It's even more rare to understand them well enough to be able to create your own good story. This is why people care about good stories and the people who make them.

I wasn't replying to some great critique of the film, I was replying to someone who was extremely angry at the director of TLJ. I hate TROS and think TFA is extremely mediocre, I'm not "angry" at JJ Abrams in the way where I feel some kind of hatred for him and can't actually critique his movies because my hatred for them makes me type meaningless insults instead. I never said everyone who doesn't TLJ doesn't "get" it. I said some people don't get it, some other people get it but don't want to accept it, and there are people who get it but think it's bad.

Then later on you say that the criticisms of TLJ are "facts of the matter". Uh, no they're not. No critique of anything ever is factually smart or funny. My opinion or anyone else's is not a fact of the matter. Asserting that in a post about intellectual humility shows how meaningless your argument is. Why is the storytelling poor? Why is it thematically inconsistent? Can you provide any evidence or are you just proving my point? Also, how is the story the same as the OT? All those factually smart and funny critiques you mentioned would say otherwise. I mean it's pretty obvious one of the big complaints about this movie is that it destroyed Luke's character, the protagonist of the OT (which I also disagree with).

There are a lot of awesome things in TLJ, I love pretty much the entire movie. Poe's intro dogfighting, Paige's sacrifice, Luke's characterization, Rey and Luke's interaction, Luke's philosophy on the force when he's teaching Rey, Poe becoming a leader over the course of the film, Finn becoming the "hero" that Rose sees him as and finding a passion for the resistance, Rose becoming brave enough to save a loved one, Yoda's great dialogue, the throne room scene is the best in the entire trilogy, Kylo offering a new path for Rey but still being a villain in doing so because he also wants destroy the good things the past held, the good art direction shown through the entire film, the final peaceful demonstration of Luke that causes him to become one with the force.

That said, I don't think it's perfect. The casino scene is probably a little too long (but not much, DJ is totally relevant to the themes of the movie and it is necessary for Finn and Rose to bond alone here) and sometimes there is comic relief where there shouldn't be between Hux and Kylo.

 

[cryptoadam]

End of the movie feels hollow to me. We were through this already and what happened? Well the FO rose from the empire and Palps wasn't really dead and was pulling the strings the whole time.

Since the trilogy already told us that killing the baddie and then celebrating doesn't really change anything why should we care this time around.

We all know Disney will bring back Palps next time anyways and there will be the second or third order that will be trying to build a death star once again in 4 or 5 years when they make the next Star Wars 9ology.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

When you have an audience as big as Star Wars has, the truth is that most people who watch them don't understand storytelling and themes. This is because it is a relatively rare thing to understand storytelling, you have to spend a lot of time analyzing stories and thinking deeply about them.

See I disagree with all of this it flies in the face of the history of storytelling and is elitist and patronizing. Storytelling is not a rare thing and to pretend understanding popular stories is some difficult thing is bizarre.

It’s so weird all the weird shit people think to justify TLJ. Like now we are pretending thousands of years of popular myth and folklore never happened LOL

People don’t need a separate class of critics to analyze their stories. That is absurd. First off these are not deep stories TLJ hits you over the head with bludgeoning themes. It’s not that people don’t understand it, it’s that maybe they don’t care. Or maybe the themes aren’t as well illustrated as people think.

Also just putting a theme or moral in a story is not enough. You have to make the story enjoyable in some way. Plenty of bad stories out there with themes.

 

[decisions]

See I disagree with all of this it flies in the face of the history of storytelling and is elitist and patronizing. Storytelling is not a rare thing and to pretend understanding popular stories is some difficult thing is bizarre. It’s so weird all the back ending people do to justify TLJ. Like now we are pretending thousands of years of popular myth and folklore never happened LOL

People don’t need a separate class of critics to analyze their stories. That is absurd. First off these are not deep stories TLJ hits you over the head with bludgeoning themes. It’s not that people don’t understand it, it’s that maybe they don’t care. Just putting a theme or moral in a story is not enough. I mean I can write a terrible song that has a theme, doesn’t stop it from being a terrible song. It’s the execution that matter.

Storytelling is not rare. I never said that. Understanding stories well is rare. So we have critics for some reason, film directors for some reason, authors for some reason, and everyone is just as great as all of these disciplines as everyone else? These implications are ridiculous...

Do you think everyone today has a good understanding of why myths/folklore are effective? Not everyone had good literature classes, and not all of those who did chose to pay attention. Maybe Joseph Campbell should've never written anything, because according to you everyone already perfectly understands storytelling.

This leads in to another reason why TLJ is cool: it communicates the value of being able to wield a lightsaber. It's not something people just do, it's only something that determined heroes and villains do. This is why Luke does not hold the lightsaber until the end of movie when he has moved past his failure and re-accepted his role as the hero. It's why he throws it away when Rey first meets him. It's why when he fights Rey he beats her in standard melee combat, but succumbs to Rey when she picks up lightsaber - only she can wield the hero's weapon at that moment. It's also why when Rey refused Kylo's offer, they break a lightsaber in half. Kylo can still wield his weapon of evil, but neither one of them is able to wield the hero's weapon at that point, so it breaks. This shows that Rey is left somewhat conflicted after Kylo's offer - a part of her wanted to accept it and work with Kylo, she just didn't believe in destroying the Jedi. This adds a lot of Kylo's character which a lot of people don't see: he is warring over the hero's weapon. A part of him wants to be hero, and this moment shows this.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Do you think everyone today has a good understanding of why myths/folklore are effective? Not everyone had good literature classes, and not all of those who did chose to pay attention. Maybe Joseph Campbell should've never written anything, because according to you everyone already perfectly understands storytelling

I do think people understand these stories it’s why you can make Avengers in the USA and have it make billions all over the world. Nobody needed a critic to explain that to them.

And just straight LOL at you referencing Joseph Campbell, who spent decades chronicling popular mythology and folklore from around the world. I mean if you need any more proof that people around the world have these basic archetypes they understand you couldn’t pick a more relevant person. That’s what he studied.

You don’t need literature classes to understand myth. Again look at thousands of years of popular myth. So many shared themes and archetypes around the world, the commonalities which Campbell himself explored. Yes he looked deeper into them but his goal was making them more accessible or he wouldn’t have hitched his wagon to SW when PBS came to him in the 80s in the first place.

It sounds like you haven’t read Campbell past whatever websites are peddling his monomyth as a script writing bible. The thing that makes comparative religion work is people all over the world having almost instinctual understanding of these themes.

Finally, it’s utterly absurd to lock the supposedly democratic theme of “anyone can be a Jedi” behind some inscrutable media that has to be deciphered by a critic.

 

[Saruhashi]

This post is hypocrisy, you just deconstructed a straw man and dodged the issue to attack me and act like you have the moral high ground. This is an ad hominem. Why are you making assumptions about how smart I think I am in relation to everyone based on a reply to an extremely immature post? Do you think "fuck Rian Johnson" is a good critique of TLJ?

When you have an audience as big as Star Wars has, the truth is that most people who watch them don't understand storytelling and themes. This is because it is a relatively rare thing to understand storytelling, you have to spend a lot of time analyzing stories and thinking deeply about them. This is why we have critics. It's even more rare to understand them well enough to be able to create your own good story. This is why people care about good stories and the people who make them.

I wasn't replying to some great critique of the film, I was replying to someone who was extremely angry at the director of TLJ. I hate TROS and think TFA is extremely mediocre, I'm not "angry" at JJ Abrams in the way where I feel some kind of hatred for him and can't actually critique his movies because my hatred for them makes me type meaningless insults instead. I never said everyone who doesn't TLJ doesn't "get" it. I said some people don't get it, some other people get it but don't want to accept it, and there are people who get it but think it's bad.

Then later on you say that the criticisms of TLJ are "facts of the matter". Uh, no they're not. No critique of anything ever is factually smart or funny. My opinion or anyone else's is not a fact of the matter. Asserting that in a post about intellectual humility shows how meaningless your argument is. Why is the storytelling poor? Why is it thematically inconsistent? Can you provide any evidence or are you just proving my point? Also, how is the story the same as the OT? All those factually smart and funny critiques you mentioned would say otherwise. I mean it's pretty obvious one of the big complaints about this movie is that it destroyed Luke's character, the protagonist of the OT (which I also disagree with).

There are a lot of awesome things in TLJ, I love pretty much the entire movie. Poe's intro dogfighting, Paige's sacrifice, Luke's characterization, Rey and Luke's interaction, Luke's philosophy on the force when he's teaching Rey, Poe becoming a leader over the course of the film, Finn becoming the "hero" that Rose sees him as and finding a passion for the resistance, Rose becoming brave enough to save a loved one, Yoda's great dialogue, the throne room scene is the best in the entire trilogy, Kylo offering a new path for Rey but still being a villain in doing so because he also wants destroy the good things the past held, the good art direction shown through the entire film, the final peaceful demonstration of Luke that causes him to become one with the force.

That said, I don't think it's perfect. The casino scene is probably a little too long (but not much, DJ is totally relevant to the themes of the movie and it is necessary for Finn and Rose to bond alone here) and sometimes there is comic relief where there shouldn't be between Hux and Kylo.

"When you have an audience as big as Star Wars has, the truth is that most people who watch them don't understand storytelling and themes. This is because it is a relatively rare thing to understand storytelling, you have to spend a lot of time analyzing stories and thinking deeply about them. This is why we have critics. It's even more rare to understand them well enough to be able to create your own good story. This is why people care about good stories and the people who make them."

Got it mate. Most people who watch them are just dumb dumbs who don't know about good stories and themes.

No like us though, eh? We are super smart and totally understand TLJ on a deeper level.

Remember that time when Luke Skywalker drank green alien titty milk?

That's the kind of storytelling that only us smart people can understand.

Fuckin hell. I laughed so hard at this post mate.
To think you were the one who started off whining about immature vitriol.

One reply and you crumbled like a Rian Johnson plot.

 

[Saruhashi]

See I disagree with all of this it flies in the face of the history of storytelling and is elitist and patronizing. Storytelling is not a rare thing and to pretend understanding popular stories is some difficult thing is bizarre.

It’s so weird all the weird shit people think to justify TLJ. Like now we are pretending thousands of years of popular myth and folklore never happened LOL

People don’t need a separate class of critics to analyze their stories. That is absurd. First off these are not deep stories TLJ hits you over the head with bludgeoning themes. It’s not that people don’t understand it, it’s that maybe they don’t care. Or maybe the themes aren’t as well illustrated as people think.

Also just putting a theme or moral in a story is not enough. You have to make the story enjoyable in some way. Plenty of bad stories out there with themes.

Nah come on man. We do.

Simpletons like us just don't get TLJ. We'd rather clap and cheer for fan-service that appreciate the awesome storytelling complexities.

What I need is some super smart people to come along and tell me why I am wrong about movies.

 

[Saruhashi]

Storytelling is not rare. I never said that. Understanding stories well is rare. So we have critics for some reason, film directors for some reason, authors for some reason, and everyone is just as great as all of these disciplines as everyone else? These implications are ridiculous...

Do you think everyone today has a good understanding of why myths/folklore are effective? Not everyone had good literature classes, and not all of those who did chose to pay attention. Maybe Joseph Campbell should've never written anything, because according to you everyone already perfectly understands storytelling.

Mate, hundreds of millions of people pay money every day to watch, listen to and read stories. People in general love stories.
They also understand them just fine.

Yes some people have a talent for making stories and some people have a talent for interpreting stories but to suggest that people in general do not have a good understanding of storytelling is nonsense.

Also if people need to take a fucking class in order to "get" your mainstream, big budget, broad appeal sci-fi fantasy action movie then you are probably doing it wrong.

I love how Star Wars conversations can lurch so crazily from "the movies need to be more inclusive" to "the movies can only really be understood by smart people".

Here's a story for you. TLJ is fucking garbage. The End.

 

[decisions]

I do think people understand these stories it’s why you can make Avengers in the USA and have it make billions all over the world. Nobody needed a critic to explain that to them.

And just straight LOL at you referencing Joseph Campbell, who spent decades chronicling popular mythology and folklore from around the world. I mean if you need any more proof that people around the world have these basic archetypes they understand you couldn’t pick a more relevant person. That’s what he studied.

You don’t need literature classes to understand myth. Again look at thousands of years of popular myth. So many shared themes and archetypes around the world, the commonalities which Campbell himself explored.

It sounds like you haven’t read Campbell past whatever websites are peddling his monomyth as a script writing bible. The thing that makes comparative religion work is people all over the world having almost instinctual understanding of these themes.

No one needs a critic, not sure where you are getting this from. When I read a critic's piece, I give it more weight than the average person. Perhaps there is something I can learn from it. I don't just blindly accept it and I'm not saying anyone should like TLJ because critics did. But, when I disagree with critics, I better have a good understanding why, because I'm sure every movie critic has spent much more time analyzing film than I have.

As for Campbell, apparently you think what he studied was completely pointless, since everyone already understood everything about these stories.

"When you have an audience as big as Star Wars has, the truth is that most people who watch them don't understand storytelling and themes. This is because it is a relatively rare thing to understand storytelling, you have to spend a lot of time analyzing stories and thinking deeply about them. This is why we have critics. It's even more rare to understand them well enough to be able to create your own good story. This is why people care about good stories and the people who make them."

Got it mate. Most people who watch them are just dumb dumbs who don't know about good stories and themes.

No like us though, eh? We are super smart and totally understand TLJ on a deeper level.

Remember that time when Luke Skywalker drank green alien titty milk?

That's the kind of storytelling that only us smart people can understand.

Fuckin hell. I laughed so hard at this post mate.
To think you were the one who started off whining about immature vitriol.

One reply and you crumbled like a Rian Johnson plot.

As usual, it's you guys coming at me with the ad hominem's. Honestly your post reads like a string of troll bait. Even the person who was attacking Rian Johnson, I criticized their post, not them directly.

It seems that it's apparently controversial among the people in this thread to say that some people understand storytelling better than others. This is such a simple idea to me - since there are hierarchies of understanding regarding literally everything - that I'm just going to agree to disagree with you all.

 

[Saruhashi]

Finally, it’s utterly absurd to lock the supposedly democratic theme of “anyone can be a Jedi” behind some inscrutable media that has to be deciphered by a critic.

This! All joking aside, it's pretty wild when you think about it.

The same people who praise the movie for the amazing theme of "anyone can use the Force" simultaneously big up the movie and proclaim that only smart people can understand it.

 

[Saruhashi]

It seems that it's apparently controversial among the people in this thread to say that some people understand storytelling better than others. This is such a simple idea to me - since there are hierarchies of understanding regarding literally everything - that I'm just going to agree to disagree with you all.

That's not the controversial part mate.

It's the way you act like some smug prick who thinks they are superior because they've inverted some bullshit rationale for why a fucking pish Star Wars movie is actually brilliant but some people are too dumb to understand.

I think the movie is shite because I watched it, saw that it was shite and I'm comfortable in that opinion.

I don't need to present my diploma in understanding story telling, my degree in fart sniffing and my doctorate in smug prickology to validate my opinion.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

You really have to have a high IQ to understand Star Wars though

 

[MilkyJoe]

If a planet is 1000 times bigger than Earth than it won't be visable from multiple vantage points.

Pretty sure it's on the little forest moon of Endor though

 

[Deleted member 17706]

What is in that movie that could possibly be deserving of so much nerdy, immature vitriol? It just seems like you are using anger as a way to cover up that if you analyzed the film with an unbiased eye, you would find that it tells a great story and is thematically consistent.

TLJ was what was necessary to have Star Wars be meaningful outside of characters related to those in the OT. Luke’s whole arc is about his final deed teaching to Rey that the Force goes beyond the Jedi, so that it is not tied down to old characters. Then he has like, the most badass peaceful demonstration ever which is a perfect sendoff for a seasoned hero.

Generally people who dislike TLJ don’t understand storytelling and themes, or don’t want to accept Star Wars progressing beyond the OT.

You're ridiculous.

You don't have to apply a critical lens and deconstruct what came before to create new meaning. You do not have to invalidate the past to create a future.

It's not that people who dislike TLJ don't understand storytelling and themes, it's just that they are not looking for cynicism and nihilism in Star Wars.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

because I'm sure every movie critic has spent much more time analyzing film than I have.

You might be surprised, especially in the modern media climate.

As for Campbell, apparently you think what he studied was completely pointless, since everyone already understood everything about these stories.

Why would his studies be pointless if cultures throughout the world intuitively understood and could relate to the hero's journey?

 

[DeafTourette]

Here's what I didn't like about TLJ (from memory since I haven't seen it since last year):

- Finn regressed in character. At the beginning of TFA, he was basically a coward deserter but, through the course of the movie, he found his courage. He took on Phasma AND Kylo Ren... he was actually pretty good with a lightsaber (hinting at his Force sensitivity). At the beginning of TLJ, Finn was, again a cowardly deserter afraid of The First Order. He had to be convinced by Poe and Rose to do something on Canto Bight to do something else on the star destroyer.

-the throne room fight scene. Just all of it. He wasn't elegant nor sophisticated. It looked like it was choreographed by a cosplayer. It looked chaotic and made both Rey and Ren look like no-skill having mofos.

I'm at work and gotta finish up my lunch before clocking back in. But I'll come back later.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This! All joking aside, it's pretty wild when you think about it.

The same people who praise the movie for the amazing theme of "anyone can use the Force" simultaneously big up the movie and proclaim that only smart people can understand it.

The worst part of that being the theme is that it requires you to ignore the lore of the franchise. The prequels very clearly established that no, actually, not everyone can use the Force. The whole midi-cholorian nonsense was heavily criticized when the prequels came out, but it established that the Force is not just some kind of magic energy that manifests in people who wish for it hard enough. Last I checked, Disney did not throw out the prequels when it comes to Star Wars canon. Then again, just like how he made up the idea of lightspeed attacks, it's unlikely that Rian Johnson or his bosses at Disney really gave a fuck about any of that.

 

[oagboghi2]

This post is hypocrisy, you just deconstructed a straw man and dodged the issue to attack me and act like you have the moral high ground. This is an ad hominem. Why are you making assumptions about how smart I think I am in relation to everyone based on a reply to an extremely immature post? Do you think "fuck Rian Johnson" is a good critique of TLJ?

When you have an audience as big as Star Wars has, the truth is that most people who watch them don't understand storytelling and themes. This is because it is a relatively rare thing to understand storytelling, you have to spend a lot of time analyzing stories and thinking deeply about them. This is why we have critics. It's even more rare to understand them well enough to be able to create your own good story. This is why people care about good stories and the people who make them.

I wasn't replying to some great critique of the film, I was replying to someone who was extremely angry at the director of TLJ. I hate TROS and think TFA is extremely mediocre, I'm not "angry" at JJ Abrams in the way where I feel some kind of hatred for him and can't actually critique his movies because my hatred for them makes me type meaningless insults instead. I never said everyone who doesn't TLJ doesn't "get" it. I said some people don't get it, some other people get it but don't want to accept it, and there are people who get it but think it's bad.

Then later on you say that the criticisms of TLJ are "facts of the matter". Uh, no they're not. No critique of anything ever is factually smart or funny. My opinion or anyone else's is not a fact of the matter. Asserting that in a post about intellectual humility shows how meaningless your argument is. Why is the storytelling poor? Why is it thematically inconsistent? Can you provide any evidence or are you just proving my point? Also, how is the story the same as the OT? All those factually smart and funny critiques you mentioned would say otherwise. I mean it's pretty obvious one of the big complaints about this movie is that it destroyed Luke's character, the protagonist of the OT (which I also disagree with).

There are a lot of awesome things in TLJ, I love pretty much the entire movie.

yeah, no one understands themes and storytelling except you and Rian Johnson.
wow, you're really doubling down on being an elitist douchebag.

Poe's intro dogfighting,

Is childish and unfunny

Paige's sacrifice,

Meaningless

Luke's characterization, Rey and Luke's interaction,

meanspirited and ultimately pointless

Luke's philosophy on the force when he's teaching Rey,

is ridiculous and immature. Something I expect from a high schooler, not a grizzled war veteran.

Then again, TLJ seems to be aimed precisely at people with a highschool level intellect. People who think cynicism is genius and nihilism deep.

Poe becoming a leader over the course of the film,

Literally didn't happen

Finn becoming the "hero" that Rose sees him as and finding a passion for the resistance, Rose becoming brave enough to save a loved one,

One of the dumbest moments in the film.

Yoda's great dialogue,

the throne room scene is the best in the entire trilogy, Kylo offering a new path for Rey but still being a villain in doing so because he also wants destroy the good things the past held,

Absolutely not. The throne room scene was silly. Killing Snoke was a dumb move, and it made the knights of Ren . look weak and the first order incompetent

That said, I don't think it's perfect. The casino scene is probably a little too long (but not much, DJ is totally relevant to the themes of the movie and it is necessary for Finn and Rose to bond alone here) and sometimes there is comic relief where there shouldn't be between Hux and Kylo.

Maybe that scene is just a little to smart for you. Maybe you couldn't figure out Rian's genius.

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Old meme, but it didn't stop me from laughing.