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[Moogle11]

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'm not bothered by sexualized character designs either.

That said, more average looking people in things like post-apocalyptic games or movies or whatever does help a bit with immersion/believability for me. For one, most poeple are average looking or worse (especially without makeup and other grooming luxuties that would be gone/reduced).

Secondly, very attractive people tend to lI've easier, more pampered lives based on sociological research. Be it more likely to succeed in white-collar careers, more likely to be a model or other job dependent solely on looks, or more likely to land a spouse who'll support them being a stay at home type. Those would be the least likely people to survive an apocalypse.

So regardless of his views, Ellie's design makes sense to me. Some average girl who has probably been through some bullying and shit would be much more likely to keep surviving than some preppy cheer squad thot. Plus it's not like Joel or the other male characters are Adonis looking male models. They're mostly more rugged looking blue collar types which also makes sense for who'd be most likely to survive long term.

In terms of sexual orientation, that doesn't matter. The tough ones would be more likely to survive, the spoiled, pampered ones more likely to die early on. Same as for heterosexual folk.

 

[RedVIper]

"She is one of the most fascinating, real, down to earth, perfectly written and acted characters I've ever come across in a long while. Possibly the best NPC ever." -Angry Joe

And as we all know, Angry joe is one the biggest intellectuals in gaming. He certainly has no issues dealing with the opposite sex *cough* *cough*,

Anyway, I think her design is bad. There's a difference between not hypersexualizing characters (which certainly doesn't fit this type of game) and actively suppressing female characteristics,

 

[Mister Wolf]

My issues with The Last Of Us 2 have nothing to do with Ellie.

 

[Danjin44]

I think a lot of young girls do look up to Ellie. She's tough, determined, competent, funny and doesn't take shit from anyone. Pretty cool character.

So is character like Kaine....

But Druckmann will look down on character like that because she is too "sexy"without getting to know the character and her reason wearing cloths like that....

And guess what, Nier had lots of female fan, so much so that Yoko Taro himself was surprised.

 

[Arkage]

Some seem to think having your politics in a game allows you to brainwash everybody with media, because everyone should be assumed to be a fuckin moron lemming.

I'm a liberal but I'd happily play a conservative-politics game if it had good gameplay. Days Gone had libertarian politics. Who gives a fuck, it made it interesting. Colin Moriarty loves Bioshock even though it went pretty explicitly against many of his political stances. Because it made it interesting. Some need to grow the fuck up and realize yes, other people have different politics than you and will express that through a medium like videogames, and that doesn't make the game or story definitionally bad.

 

[Lanrutcon]

My issues with The Last Of Us 2 have nothing to do with Ellie.

Jesus Christ yes. This.

The folks who haven't seen the spoilers yet have no idea why people are mad.

 

[Chan]

He explains how he wanted a good role model for his daughter who isn't sexualized so he set out to create one in Ellie.

He is right in so far that over sexualized woman wouldn't fit into the serious and harsh world of TLoU.
It would look silly and inauthentic.

But that doesn't mean that sexualized woman are silly and inauthentic in general. They have their places as well as man do.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

"She is one of the most fascinating, real, down to earth, perfectly written and acted characters I've ever come across in a long while. Possibly the best NPC ever." -Angry Joe

Please keep your argument coherent.

I quoted you saying:

I think a lot of young girls do look up to Ellie.

You reply back with Angry Joe. I know AJ loves to dress and drag, and we love him for it damnit, but that doesn't make him the demographic you are speaking on behalf of.

 

[Riven326]

I'm all for creators having the right to choose how their characters are portrayed. But the discussion surrounding their design needs to be an honest one.

As for my own preference, I prefer,the more realistic take on women in games today. The new Lara Croft is a good example. That being said, I think the pendulum can swing too far and developers have a tendency to over correct. This results in creators discussing the portrayal of women in games in only one context, and that is the idea that anything that can be interpreted as sexual or physically desirable by a male audience is objectionable. It ignores the many women who enjoying playing as sexy characters as well. One might even be able to get away with calling this a bit sexist.

 

[Woggleman]

If Gamers were not afraid of her then they wouldn't be so triggered about a game which she herself said she was not involved with. They would dismiss her and continue doing what they wanted but they see SJWs around every corner. They are triggered the same way extreme leftists are whenever anybody doesn't share their opinion. It is not just because they don't like the game. RDR2 was divisive as well but there wasn't this visceral outrage that you see with this game.

 

[Saber]

That's why I created this thread. It's popping up everywhere. I wanted to have a more focused discussion on it.

Whats to discuss? "Sexy and cute girls are bad. My concept is the only right. If you disagree, then you're bad."
And before this shit comes again, this has nothing to do with Ellie.

 

[Radical_3d]

To me there is no difference between the woke culture of criticism against everything without a base and the actitud some here have towards titles produced under more liberal ideas. Like Druckmann's TLoU or EA's BF1. To me it's equally toxic the Sarkisian videos as the rage because you can be a woman in a war game.

Maybe because being right winged in Europe is something like being a Hilary voter in the states I don't share the views of those who attack not only the woke culture (something legit and, if you ask me, necessary) but also the creations of people who think like this that have nothing of poisonous. In the end TLoU and BF1 sold well because they were great games and BF5 not because it wasn't. And that's what it's important. Not to be woke but to be good.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

Please keep your argument coherent.

I quoted you saying:



You reply back with Angry Joe. I know AJ loves to dress and drag, and we love him for it damnit, but that doesn't make him the demographic you are speaking on behalf of.

Do I need to pull up all the reviews from young female gamers? To pretend like girls didn't connect with ellie is just dumb.

 

[PocoJoe]

I think a lot of young girls do look up to Ellie. She's tough, determined, competent, funny and doesn't take shit from anyone. Pretty cool character.

So she is psychopath.

Funny how strong/tough female characters are so often "look me in the wrong way and I kick you in the balls!!" kind of hatred filled anger management issues having persons. Like only way to be strong is to "not to take shit from anyone". That is just lazy writing and lazy on overal,

Same happens in many movies and series, and also many people (maybe specially women) see it like that, strong female = roid rage bastard that lacks empathy and doesn't have basic skills for conflicts other than kicking balls. And that they have to be "more everything" than men to be "strong"

Literally everyone of this "doesnt take shit from anybody"-type I have knew, man or woman, have been these people that are aggressive, always thinking that others are attacking/challenging them and going from 0 to 100 % angry in nanosecond.

Really good role models indeed.

Real strong and good/tough person knows when just let the "shit" pass, without even reacting as they don't have to show their dominance or answer to challenges.

Anybody can react to fire with fire, but only strong ones can control their inner fire and let it pass. Calm, self aware people.



And anyway it is weird if girls can look up only girls and boys only boys as role models. Good person should be good role model, no matter the gender.

 

[Wunray]

Gamers have made Anita into some all powerful boogie woman.

Have been thinking this, she really holds like no sway or power what so ever.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

So she is psychopath.

Funny how strong/tough female characters are so often "look me in the wrong way and I kick you in the balls!!" kind of hatred filled anger management issues having persons. Like only way to be strong is to "not to take shit from anyone". That is just lazy writing and lazy on overal,

To survive in the apocalypse you need to be strong. No snowflakery is allowed.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

So there's been a lot of talk about this clip where he explains how it bothers him how many female game characters are hypersexualized in games. He explains how he wanted a good role model for his daughter who isn't sexualized so he set out to create one in Ellie.

Serious question - why does this clip bother so many people? Ellie is one of the most beloved characters in gaming. She was heavily influenced by Neil's politics.. So what?

I don't mind. It is what it is, and Ellie is the character he wanted to make. Either accept it or just skip the game. It's not hard.

 

[Sakura Doritos]

Do I need to pull up all the reviews from young female gamers? To pretend like girls didn't connect with ellie is just dumb.

You made the argument, you post the proof. Also give me the qualifiers of 'many' prior to you providing evidence so you can fit your door into the frame you are trying to build.

The only one making a dumb argument is you.

 

[Strategize]

So she is psychopath.

Funny how strong/tough female characters are so often "look me in the wrong way and I kick you in the balls!!" kind of hatred filled anger management issues having persons. Like only way to be strong is to "not to take shit from anyone". That is just lazy writing and lazy on overal,

Same happens in many movies and series, and also many people (maybe specially women) see it like that, strong female = roid rage bastard that lacks empathy and doesn't have basic skills for conflicts other than kicking balls. And that they have to be "more everything" than men to be "strong"

Literally everyone of this "doesnt take shit from anybody"-type I have knew, man or woman, have been these people that are aggressive, always thinking that others are attacking/challenging them and going from 0 to 100 % angry in nanosecond.

Really good role models indeed.

Real strong and good/tough person knows when just let the "shit" pass, without even reacting as they don't have to show their dominance or answer to challenges.

Anybody can react to fire with fire, but only strong ones can control their inner fire and let it pass. Calm, self aware people.



And anyway it is weird if girls can look up only girls and boys only boys as role models. Good person should be good role model, no matter the gender.

Characters can be flawed people and still be role models to some, to some Joel is an absolute fucking hero because of his decision at the of TLOU, to others he's a monster. Because there are many situations in life where there is no objective truth for what good and evil is.

 

[Danjin44]

I don't mind. It is what it is, and Ellie is the character he wanted to make. Either accept it or just skip the game. It's not hard.

And he has every right to do so but so is every other developers free to make any type characters they want. Most people issue with him is he thinks character with sexy design are automatically bad characters and poorly designed just because they are "sexy".

 

[Whitesnake]

You can't find me a single quote where he says "sexy characters cannot be deep or interesting or inspirational." Indeed, Chloe from Uncharted is incredibly sexy. And she uses her sex appeal to get her way.

He uses Cortana, Quiet, and Ayane as examples of characters that can't/shouldn't be role models because of their sex appeal, a take which completely ignores those characters' personalities, themes, and story arcs.

And I should probably remind you that Chloe was created when Hennig was in charge, and he was not a writer for Lost Legacy, the recent stand-alone that featured Chloe.

It's their game. Why do we even care if video game characters are sexualized when real women and porn exists?

Had you read the comment you're responding to, you would've seen that I said I have no problems with Ellie. They can make non-sexual characters all they want.

But it's pretty insane for him to try to tear down 3 great characters because they're hot.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

And he has every right to do so but so is every other developers free to make any type characters they want. Most people issue with him is he thinks character with sexy design are automatically bad characters and poorly designed just because they are "sexy".

Yeah, 100% agreed. His blanket criticism of sexy/sexualized characters in games made by his peers in the industry was pretty crass.

 

[MrS]

Let that man eat.

 

[Strategize]

He uses Cortana, Quiet, and Ayane as examples of characters that can't/shouldn't be role models because of their sex appeal, a take which completely ignores those characters' personalities, themes, and story arcs.

And I should probably remind you that Chloe was created when Hennig was in charge, and he was not a writer for Lost Legacy, the recent stand-alone that featured Chloe.



Had you read the comment you're responding to, you would've seen that I said I have no problems with Ellie. They can make non-sexual characters all they want.

But it's pretty insane for him to try to tear down 3 great characters because they're hot.

Pretty sure the way he sees it, there needs it be a reason in their character as to why they dress that way. To me I don't care too much since most game stories are shit anyway, if the creator just said "well I want them to dress sexy because I get off on it" then so be it.

But if they want me to take it seriously, then yeah I wanna know the reason why a character does pretty much anything.

 

[The Scrivener]

So what? SO WHAT!?

Spoiler

 

[IntentionalPun]

she is too "sexy"without getting to know the character and her reason wearing cloths like that....

lol.. pretending their are good narrative reasons for a woman to go around dressed in a g-string is one of my favorite thing about weebs.

 

[hyperbertha]

A large part of Ellie's design isn't from Neil's politics at all. She is an average looking 14 year old. How else would you design an average looking non fighter type 14 year old in a post apocalyptic world? From a pure physical standpoint, there is nothing political about her design. She is the only way a child could possible be designed unless you want her obese or something.

Instead compare Tess with other females in gaming and you'll see a lot of similarities. She is a grown athletic woman, and have body proportions realistic to someone like that, and are similar to some of the sexualized characters Druckmann himself whined about. Only thing stopping her from being called sexy is that she isn't wearing skin tight clothes.

So my point is, Druckman really has no point. 'Sexualized' women in gaming in most cases is really just a result of their body types being proportioned to suit whatever roles they play in the game(just like Tess). People like Neil Druckman doesn't want women like that to be rolemodels because they want to push other types of women into the forefront. Simple as that. Its called an AGENDA.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

He uses Cortana, Quiet, and Ayane as examples of characters that can't/shouldn't be role models because of their sex appeal, a take which completely ignores those characters' personalities, themes, and story arcs.

And I should probably remind you that Chloe was created when Hennig was in charge, and he was not a writer for Lost Legacy, the recent stand-alone that featured Chloe.



Had you read the comment you're responding to, you would've seen that I said I have no problems with Ellie. They can make non-sexual characters all they want.

But it's pretty insane for him to try to tear down 3 great characters because they're hot.

He never said sexy characters can't be role models. Indeed, he calls the sexy characters in his presentation role models. Direct quote: "Whether we want to admit it or not, these are role models." He just thinks women are objectified too much in games. HIS opinion. So he created Ellie, who isn't sexualized. What's the big deal?

 

[Sakura Doritos]

lol.. pretending their are good narrative reasons for a woman to go around dressed in a g-string is one of my favorite thing about weebs.

Why use armor to absorb damage when you can use sex appeal make them miss because the're gawking?

Edit: ps that's a joke

 

[The Pleasure]

Ah yes, the scrappy teenage lesbian that is always going "Fuuuuuuck" is a good role model for young girls.

You forgot holy shit after killing someone or something.

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

My issues with The Last Of Us 2 have nothing to do with Ellie.

This, people that haven't read the links are going around saying, people just don't like it because its woke and has a lesbian as the protagonist. No the problem is the story looks like complete shit.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

So my point is, Druckman really has no point. 'Sexualized' women in gaming in most cases is really just a result of their body types being proportioned to suit whatever roles they play in the game(just like Tess). People like Neil Druckman doesn't want women like that to be rolemodels because they want to push other types of women into the forefront. Simple as that. Its called an AGENDA.

Ok. And what's your agenda? It seems to me if your bothered by Neil creating nonsexualized characters *in his own games* you have an agenda yourself.

 

[RedVIper]

He never said sexy characters can't be role models. Indeed, he calls the sexy characters in his presentation role models. Direct quote: "Whether we want to admit it or not, these are role models." He just thinks women are objectified too much in games. HIS opinion. So he created Ellie, who isn't sexualized. What's the big deal?

So the only way to make non sexualized female characters is to not give them female characteristics at all?

 

[hyperbertha]

Ok. And what's your agenda? It seems to me if your bothered by Neil creating nonsexualized characters *in his own games* you have an agenda yourself.

To have representation be accurate and suited for the role in question rather than shoehorning unsuitable characters into a role and hence compromising the story. What YOUR agenda? See obese girls in action roles? lol

 

[Airbus Jr]

Nothing wrong with ellie design its the other one who look weird

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I have no issues with things being political at all. In fact I respect and admire it when done right. I read a lot of comic books and many of them have been dealing with political issues since they have been in existence.

My issue is where they use the politics specifically identity politics as a selling points and pandering. That shit I get tired of as it is nothing but pandering and a pathetic attempt to appease the twitter crowd who cant be pleased and will jump on any opportunity to eat their own.

 

[Geki-D]

lol.. pretending their are good narrative reasons for a woman to go around dressed in a g-string is one of my favorite thing about weebs.

"But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds."
...Oh wait, no. It was just gratuitous fanservice.

If you want to play games with near naked ladies and fanservice, fine. But don't pretend there's an actual logical reason for a warrior to be going into combat 'au naturel'.

It's like taking this scene from MW:

But the soldiers are all dressed like this:

Then saying: "ACKCHYUALLY it makes perfect sense because it's really hot in the middle east!"

No one would buy that.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

To have representation be accurate and suited for the role in question rather than shoehorning unsuitable characters into a role and hence compromising the story. What YOUR agenda? See obese girls in action roles? lol

To let creators make the games they want to make and not force my own ideological agenda on them.

This, people that haven't read the links are going around saying, people just don't like it because its woke and has a lesbian as the protagonist. No the problem is the story looks like complete shit.

I follow center right circles very closely. And TLOU2 is all the rage for going sjw woke.

 

[Potato Chip PRO]

I can't even see Ellie without thinking about Ellen Page..... Same shit with Beyond Two Souls. Make female characters that DON'T RESEMBLE ELLEN PAGE!

 

[Hobbygaming]

He uses Cortana, Quiet, and Ayane as examples of characters that can't/shouldn't be role models because of their sex appeal, a take which completely ignores those characters' personalities, themes, and story arcs.

And I should probably remind you that Chloe was created when Hennig was in charge, and he was not a writer for Lost Legacy, the recent stand-alone that featured Chloe.



Had you read the comment you're responding to, you would've seen that I said I have no problems with Ellie. They can make non-sexual characters all they want.

But it's pretty insane for him to try to tear down 3 great characters because they're hot.

His opinion is his opinion, he has no control over what Quiet or Cortana looks like. This whole thing is overblown

 

[RedVIper]

"But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds."
...Oh wait, no. It was just gratuitous fanservice.

If you want to play games with near naked ladies and fanservice, fine. But don't pretend there's an actual logical reason for a warrior to be going into combat 'au naturel'.

It's like taking this scene from MW:

But the soldiers are all dressed like this:

Then saying: "ACKCHYUALLY it makes perfect sense because it's really hot in the middle east!"

No one would buy that.

When there's woman going around in g strings in the game, usually the men are also dressed like this:

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

To let creators make the games they want to make and not force my own ideological agenda on them.


I follow center right circles very closely. And TLOU2 is all the rage for going sjw woke.

Those are youtuber thumbnails trying to get clicks. Go to the gaf thread and see what people are mostly complaining about. The main concern was this huge story plot that everyone hated.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Why use armor to absorb damage when you can use sex appeal make them miss because the're gawking?

Edit: ps that's a joke

Maybe she is allergic to all clothing? Does anyone even CARE about her SKIN DISEASE???

"But once you recognize the secret reason for her exposure, you will feel ashamed of your words & deeds."
...Oh wait, no. It was just gratuitous fanservice.

If you want to play games with near naked ladies and fanservice, fine. But don't pretend there's an actual logical reason for a warrior to be going into combat 'au naturel'.

lol exactly

I take no issue with T&A in games.. but the "justifications" that aren't "well people like T&A" are all rather pathetic.

I also have no issue with Druckman specifically not wanting T&A in his games and I "get" his cause.. although I think many like him take it too far..and one that ignores that many women actually do like titillation in their games as well. Having a variety of games with different levels of T&A is sort of the "right direction" to me and feel like gaming is pretty much there at this point. Hopefully at some point the crusaders can leave the T&A games alone now that most major pubs aren't pushing that envelope.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Whats to discuss? "Sexy and cute girls are bad. My concept is the only right. If you disagree, then you're bad."
And before this shit comes again, this has nothing to do with Ellie.

How does that one man's opinion affect you?

 

[Woggleman]

I have no issues with things being political at all. In fact I respect and admire it when done right. I read a lot of comic books and many of them have been dealing with political issues since they have been in existence.

My issue is where they use the politics specifically identity politics as a selling points and pandering. That shit I get tired of as it is nothing but pandering and a pathetic attempt to appease the twitter crowd who cant be pleased and will jump on any opportunity to eat their own.

This is true but I think with Neil Druckmann he is coming from a sincere place whether we agree with him or not. I don't see him as somebody who just caved in to some twitter outrage. These are his sincere beliefs and he sticks to them which I respect whether I always agree or not.

 

[yeeeeeezy]

Those are youtuber thumbnails trying to get clicks. Go to the gaf thread and see what people are mostly complaining about. The main concern was this huge story plot that everyone hated.

They are also center right channels who constantly rage about sjw stuff and don't even give a shit about TLOU. I know because I'm subscribed to them all. I understand many are upset with narrative choices. But much of the online hate is coming from people with political agendas.

 

[hyperbertha]

To let creators make the games they want to make and not force my own ideological agenda on them.


I follow center right circles very closely. And TLOU2 is all the rage for going sjw woke.

So creators can force their own views on everybody that plays? It would be offensive if Druckman was doing it in his own company, but doing it on a platform that is made by gamers that want nothing to do with his agenda is disgusting. Nobody wants to see his politics. Just make good games with functional characters that offend nobody. If you put politics into your games, then when people do get offended don't cry on threads.

 

[Geki-D]

When there's woman going around in g strings in the game, usually the men are also dressed like this:

Outside of fighting games, this is so wrong I'm actually 100% sure you know it and feel bad now for typing such a blatant lie. The only reason I'm not flooding the thread with examples is because everyone knows already that what you said is just stupid.

Go to the gaf thread and see what people are mostly complaining about. The main concern was this huge story plot that everyone hated.

Go to the any GAF thread about this game for the last 2 years and you'll quickly see how wrong you are.

 

[cormack12]

Op now

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

They are also center right channels who constantly rage about sjw stuff and don't even give a shit about TLOU. I know because I'm subscribed to them all. I understand many are upset with narrative choices. But much of the online hate is coming from people with political agendas.

If the story was amazing and there was a couple lesbian scenes there would be no outrage. Its clear the outrage is coming from the story then people are pushing the SJW agenda as the reason for the shit story.