Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Wings for Kratos? The idea is neat.

Meanwhile, Loki can transform into an animal. He can transform into an eagle, maybe also grow wings like this picture. A Loki game with an enhanced God of War gameplay, open-world of GTA, Norse setting in different realms and next-gen graphics sounds interesting.

That might be even better! Using Loki "Atreus" for assisted flights in some areas or some fights! Kratos used to borrow some powers from the Greek gods I think in the 3rd installment? I still remember the crushed face of Heracles, which was strange that he was his brother, along with his killed brother, Deimos, which looked epic! He ended pretty fast.

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I personally didn't like Kratos as a character back then, although loved the games, but he felt rabid and foolish, even evil at some parts killing innocent people.

The new Kratos was the best thing they made to him, you feel like you grew up with him and you can sense that he's mature now:messenger_winking:

Could you imagine if some of these are to be announced for PS5:

- Next infamous. (1+2 were amazing, the latest one I just despise the protagonist!)
- New Killzone.
- New Horizon.
- New God of War.
- New Spider-man.
- A new Naughty Dog game (space game?).
- Of course with the long-awaited Gran Turismo 7, with some insane physics.

This time around, I think Sony needs a proper shooter game. I can see Killzone to be the perfect fit, or SOCOM.
 
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Wings for Kratos? The idea is neat.

Meanwhile, Loki can transform into an animal. He can transform into an eagle, maybe also grow wings like this picture. A Loki game with an enhanced God of War gameplay, open-world of GTA, Norse setting in different realms and next-gen graphics sounds interesting.

What If it's a Plot twist? You think your playing as Kratos or Kratos with wings, buts it's really Loki?
 
To me God of War is the most complete/perfect game in gaming history. Gameplay, animations, melee fights, difficulty, exploration, smooth story-telling makes you feel you're connected to the world especially when the head came to the mix, graphics. The main story/goal wasn't that much, but the story-telling and the journey is just above anything and no game comes close to it, at all. Small world/worlds yet dense and unique, striking the best out of both phiolosophies: open world and linear games.
Do you know that Cory Balrog and his team went through at least three prototypes before getting it right? I think a figure of $100m was thrown around that they had burned before the game even got its shape. When I had heard about it (from someone who had worked with the guy on another project), I thought the game would be shit because it had to go through such development hell. Fortunately, they got it right in the end and the truth about development surfaced with an article, I think it was an interview with Balrog who was happy to get it off his chest with all the awards, high scores and commercial success. I respect Sony for being consistent and just keeping throwing cash at them, for sensing that their investment would return, just a bit later. A hundred million dollars for prototyping is unimaginable patience. Most big publishers would've scrapped the game long before that.
Wings on Kratos? Nope that wouldn't work at all.
I think you missed wings of Icarus in GOW2 ;)

Could you imagine if some of these are to be announced for PS5:

- Next infamous. (1+2 were amazing, the latest one I just despise the protagonist!)
- New Killzone.
- New Horizon.
- New God of War.
- New Spider-man.
- A new Naughty Dog game (space game?).
- Of course with the long-awaited Gran Turismo 7, with some insane physics.

This time around, I think Sony needs a proper shooter game. I can see Killzone to be the perfect fit, or SOCOM.
I'm waiting for an announcement of a military shooter from Sony. I enjoy shooters most and there's a huge gap in the market right now. If you don't like COD, there's nothing to play online now, sadly. A more tactical, slower shooter with huge player count is what I want. Sony has Killzone, SOCOM and MAG brands. With new CPU capabilities they can do a lot.
 
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Nope. Sony explained that the whole point of removing bottlenecks is remove load times and for games to stream on the fly.

We know XSX has not achieved this, they're just trying to use it as a buzzword.

Everything MSFT has claimed up to now falls in line with what Sony has said. They are both claiming to eliminate SSD bottlenecks. I'm not talking about one SSD being faster than the other, it's clearly the PS5. But you're claiming XVA is a buzzword.
 
I'm not sure, With all the other technical specs and a lot of information about AMD CPUs and GPUs available from articles I think we can make some fair predictions about the IO capabilities in the XSX APU.
The XsX CU count is big for the chip size IIRC – pretty sure someone in this thread said both chips are similar areas. So if PS5 spent their APU area budget on presumably 2 more MCUs than normal and a massive IO complex with DRAM and two co-processors inside the Zen2, and an additional reworked Tempest CU then it is hard to see how the XsX would have the spare area to match that.

The XsX has got an additional MCU(and probably L3 cache module) inside the Zen2 to give it 192bit bus, and even if they've shrunk the L3 cache sizes in the Zen2, they would still need to claw back 15CUs in area – although it is reasonable to expect the 52 CUs to have slightly bigger per CU area budget for caches if the L2 caches are bigger making things even worse. Even if the XsX GPU only has 2 MCUs instead of the vega/ps5 expected 4 MCUs, it is hard to imagine they'd have any area left over, after bcpack and zlib decompression units are attached to the Zen2's MISC I/O block.
Maybe someone has the expected dimensions from the github leak to comment on this speculation about spare fab area for the velocity architecture.

This is valid if the chips are the same size, but on top of that the PS5 is going for a chiplet design if we're looking at the presentation but most important, I would expect the PS5 SoC to be less than 360 mm(PS4 pro was 325mm on 16nm). So we need full details about the XVA. But yes if there's die size from the guthub leaks that would be great.
 
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Everything MSFT has claimed up to now falls in line with what Sony has said. They are both claiming to eliminate SSD bottlenecks. I'm not talking about one SSD being faster than the other, it's clearly the PS5. But you're claiming XVA is a buzzword.

They aren't claiming to have removed load times or be able to stream instantly in games. If bottlenecks were removed then that's what they would achieve.
 
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To me God of War is the most complete/perfect game in gaming history. Gameplay, animations, melee fights, difficulty, exploration, smooth story-telling makes you feel you're connected to the world especially when the head came to the mix, graphics. The main story/goal wasn't that much, but the story-telling and the journey is just above anything and no game comes close to it, at all. Small world/worlds yet dense and unique, striking the best out of both phiolosophies: open world and linear games.

God of War is the most feared title by Xbox division, if it's announced for PS5 even for future release the hype will simply explode. It would be interesting if Santa Monica take into consideration the wings here through some sorcery mission or from another god, as the insanely fast SSD should be a perfect fit and it'll be a great upgrade from the previous installment:

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Really, between HZD and GOW on the PS4, along with the Witcher 3....just amazing. The Last of Us remake has to be considered as well since it was the best game on PS3 IMHO, and a strong candidate for the PS4 as well. Can't wait for the next one, as long as the supposed "leaks" aren't true. But you're right about GOW...the pacing was such that I wasn't bored AT ALL and really was sad when it was over.
 
I appreciate that HZD looks amazing but as far as I know it is not native 4K and it is not 60FPS (I think not even GoW runs at native 4k@60FPS) on PS4 Pro. From a technical point of view, there are more impressive games this gen. Don't get me wrong, both HZD and GoW look amazing, and there are definitely in the top 5-10 best looking games this gen, but technically, there are some more impressive titles available on this gen platforms.
 
My friend, the difference is "Massive" between all of these, but 1600-1800p with 60fps is not a deal breaker to me anyway. Any person with healthy sight will notice that from at least 2-5 meters away when put side by side. 16K is the near max limit for the eye to notice above it, but we're still waiting for PS5 Pro for checkerboard/native 8K gaming by 2023-2024 :messenger_sunglasses:

For Borderlands 3, I went with crappy resolution for higher framerates on PS4 Pro. For FPV it must be 60fps minimum anyway.

My eyesight is OK but I need reading glasses (old git) but all those 1600/1440 or whatever are either CB or temporal on Pro so your still got a 4k image just reconstructed = no difference on my LG C7 and I sit 3 m away. My son does not notice either and he is a teen with no glasses.

Resolution yes I agree, reconstructed 4k from > 1440 is what I meant, and you would be looking fro blade of grass artifacts with a microscope = who cares except fanboys, and 60 FPS is a must.
 
I appreciate that HZD looks amazing but as far as I know it is not native 4K and it is not 60FPS (I think not even GoW runs at native 4k@60FPS) on PS4 Pro. From a technical point of view, there are more impressive games this gen. Don't get me wrong, both HZD and GoW look amazing, and there are definitely in the top 5-10 best looking games this gen, but technically, there are some more impressive titles available on this gen platforms.

I disagree, albeit I like Wipeout PS4 remaster a lot, it doing 4K@60 FPS on PS4 Pro (even with the tweaked effects )is not as technically impressive as what HZD or GoW do on PS4 Pro.
Resolution and framerate are dependent on what you render, it is not a checkbox filling exercise.
 
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Q: Given the fact all of your Xbox Series X games must work on a base Xbox One, does that not mean games will be hampered when it comes to design or fidelity because developers will have to develop to the lowest common denominator?

Jason Ronald:
Ultimately, that's a developer choice. And to be clear, there will be titles that are unique or exclusive to the Xbox Series X generation. The Medium is a great example of that. But ultimately, this is going to be a choice each developer is going to have to make. And in some cases, they will choose to make games that are exclusive to the next generation.

The exact same tools you use to build a game on Xbox Series X, are the exact same tools you use to build a game on Xbox One, or on PC. So we've tried to make it as easy as possible for developers to ship their game across multiple devices, but then also to take advantage of the unique capabilities of the specific device that they're on.

As an example, you might have ray tracing enabled on the Xbox Series X optimised version of the game, but you don't have it enabled on the Xbox One version of the game. Or, you might have improved gaming experiences in some areas, and in other areas, you may choose to keep them the same. So I don't view it as a lowest common denominator. I view it as giving developers the tools they need to build the best gaming experience possible and developers are incentivised to make a great gaming experience for their players just like we are. It's about finding that right balance.

Q: I know third-parties can decide to release games exclusive on Xbox Series X. But what about your own games? Take Halo Infinite for example. This is a game that works on a base Xbox One right up through to Xbox Series X. Obviously it'll look and perform better on Xbox Series X. But how can it have meaningful gameplay and design features that take advantage of what's possible on Xbox Series X when you have to make it work on a base Xbox One in fundamentally the same way?

Jason Ronald:
In some ways, it's no different than some of the things we've been doing over the last couple of years with PC. We're focused on reaching the largest audience of players possible. And developers have a whole series of good techniques, whether it's things like dynamic resolution scaling as an example, that make it easier to scale up and scale down. Sometimes you'll have features that are exclusive to one device versus another.

All of these devices are shared from an Xbox Live perspective. So making sure people have great communities to play with, whether it's PC, Xbox One, Xbox Series X, we're giving developers the capability to have things that work similarly across generations, and that then lean into the unique capabilities of one form factor versus another.

What we've seen so far from both our first-party studios as well as third-party studios is they actually prefer this level of flexibility, because they know how to tailor their experience to provide that best experience for the player.

 
To me God of War is the most complete/perfect game in gaming history. Gameplay, animations, melee fights, difficulty, exploration, smooth story-telling makes you feel you're connected to the world especially when the head came to the mix, graphics. The main story/goal wasn't that much, but the story-telling and the journey is just above anything and no game comes close to it, at all. Small world/worlds yet dense and unique, striking the best out of both phiolosophies: open world and linear games.

Truth, only game in last 10 years I have platinum and beat on every hard difficulty and collected everything/.

Blows my mind, gameplay on hardest setting reminds me of Gaiden black on 360, the speed and reaction, add the story and banter and its amazing. I would pay anything for god war 2.
 
Excellent video on the new consoles and how they will stack up against pc and each-other...

Someone show this to the "PC is already next gen" crowd. Once next gen only games get going current pcs will be left in the dust simply due to the paradigm shift brought by the insane IO throughput of these consoles.

they almost lost me when they said HZD2 Aloy might have like a billion triangles but overall great tech talk
 
Next-Gen Is a Significantly Bigger Leap Than Current-Gen, Each Console Has Its Own Perks – Gaijin CEO

"While currently there is a lot of public information available, developers are still limited to
what they can comment on. Obviously, a fast SSD will speed up the gameplay session
loading (that is already very quick in our games) and higher processing power will make the
game look better. Let's say, each platform has its own perks and both of them are rather
powerful and will certainly provide a new level of gaming experience.
If you compare the current generation with previous generation hardware, and then public
information of next-gen tech with the original current generation, you will notice it is a
significantly bigger leap on numerous fronts. So it is exciting times for developers and
gamers."

 
They aren't claiming to have removed load times or be able to stream instantly in games. If bottlenecks were removed then that's what they would achieve.



MSFT have claimed to virtually eliminate load times, or something along those lines. I would say so far MSFT's software/hardware approach to solving issues has produced far superior results. Look at BC for example, The XSX can play games all the way back to the OG Xbox(with enhancements). The PS5 though will have to switch off half the GPU for PS4 pro games and half of that for base PS4 and not even sure if games will run at higher frame rates or visual enhancements.

It's possible the XVA could be a gimmick but they've shown amazing results with such approaches. I'm not saying they will match or come close to the PS5 SSD performance, the PS5 SSD is far superior in terms of throughput, but with SFS's file I/O multiplier effects for example, you could see clever ways in which the XSX matches the PS5 in terms of asset streaming. The only clear advantage I see with the PS5 is in load times. The ability to load 8GB/s of data directly into RAM means you can eliminate load times as we know them. But if the XSX can hit 4.8GB/s then it can do something close as well. What's the difference between half a second and a second load time?

Here's a quote from Jason Ronald:
We designed the Xbox velocity architecture to be the ultimate solution for game asset streaming. And it works as an effective memory multiplier beyond the physical memory that's in the box because we have such superfast IO speeds, that there are entire classes of assets you don't even need to load into memory until just before you need them.

Sony can just do this by streaming in 8GB of data per second. But with XSX they need to use a combination of HW/SW. The SFS hardware in the GPU and the DirectStorage API can produce something similar despite the slower SSD, at the cost of negligible CPU overhead.
 
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Everything MSFT has claimed up to now falls in line with what Sony has said. They are both claiming to eliminate SSD bottlenecks. I'm not talking about one SSD being faster than the other, it's clearly the PS5. But you're claiming XVA is a buzzword.
It's not just the 'SSD being faster' that it's clear, it's also the advantages in every block of hardware in the i/o complex. And by that i mean the ones they have in common, because in ps5 it goes beyond
Behind the scenes, the SSD's dedicated Kraken compression block, DMA controller, coherency engines and I/O co-processors ensure that developers can easily tap into the speed of the SSD without requiring bespoke code to get the best out of the solid-state solution. A significant silicon investment in the flash controller ensures top performance: the developer simply needs to use the new API. It's a great example of a piece of technology that should deliver instant benefits, and won't require extensive developer buy-in to utilise it.Source

By XVA you mean the Velocity architecture? XVA is the combination of the hardware support on the SSD i/o complex and the DirectStorage API, the software tools that XSX has for devs... in places where the PS5 has custom hardware support.
 
If the leap is so big, what did we just see in Xbox Inside and nothing from Sony? Something's wrong...

Maybe the next gen games are not ready to be played just yet.

Inside Xbox games were mainly no gameplay trailers, I think Sony should wait until they have something proper gameplay to show. MS as well.

I think Xbox have also learnt that lesson this week, MS were trying to make allot of early noise thats clear and it backfired..
 
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It's not just the 'SSD being faster' that it's clear, it's also the advantages in every block of hardware in the i/o complex. And by that i mean the ones they have in common, because in ps5 it goes beyond


By XVA you mean the Velocity architecture? XVA is the combination of the hardware support on the SSD i/o complex and the DirectStorage API, the software tools that XSX has for devs... in places where the PS5 has custom hardware support.
Yes that's what I mean by the XVA, I'm interested in learning more about it tbh. Sony's explanation for how they eliminated bottlenecks was impressive. But so is the XVA.
 
Yes that's what I mean by the XVA, I'm interested in learning more about it tbh. Sony's explanation for how they eliminated bottlenecks was impressive. But so is the XVA.

I'm not sure what more can be learned about XVA, rntongo? The DirectStorage API is a file I/O update of what is nearly 30 years old and if they didn't update it for the SSD/Decompression block it would've taken 2 full Zen 2 cores for overhead. This has been dramatically reduced to 1/10th core which is excellent (but still uses precious resources from the CPU). SFS seems like a nice piece of software that makes streaming more efficient. It doesn't declare how much CPU it uses but I'm guessing there would be some cost at least as much as DirectStorage?

Basically from what Microsoft have discussed/disclosed about XVA with DF, Windows Central etc, is that they have some pretty nice software APIs to boost the speed and efficiency their two main hardware upgrades (SSD, Decompressor). Whether Microsoft have anything else they haven't discussed yet be it hardware or software, we'll have to wait and see.
 
The SFS hardware in the GPU and the DirectStorage API can produce something similar despite the slower SSD
Some of thingS - yep, it can. Similar? Sorry, but no.
Sony's decision in its essence and internal is much superior to the decision of Microsoft. People may not accept it, do not understand it, and generally hate it, because of their love for the Xbox brand, for example. It's normal. But like the approaches are too different for both consoles and like the final speed of communication and coherency is obviously different too. It's not whole story for now. But the Xbox has a more powerful GPU, which is also an indisputable advantage of the console from MS. Two different approaches of core architecture for these gaming machines.
Anyway, open-channel SSD, DirectAPI and things like SFS in XsX is really cool features. There is nothing to worry about.
 
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Wings for Kratos? The idea is neat.

Meanwhile, Loki can transform into an animal. He can transform into an eagle, maybe also grow wings like this picture. A Loki game with an enhanced God of War gameplay, open-world of GTA, Norse setting in different realms and next-gen graphics sounds interesting.

My recollection might be wrong but in pass GOW Kratos has had brief wings pop out, he is in possession of the icarus wings so tht has been done already.
 


MSFT have claimed to virtually eliminate load times, or something along those lines. I would say so far MSFT's software/hardware approach to solving issues has produced far superior results. Look at BC for example, The XSX can play games all the way back to the OG Xbox(with enhancements). The PS5 though will have to switch off half the GPU for PS4 pro games and half of that for base PS4 and not even sure if games will run at higher frame rates or visual enhancements.

It's possible the XVA could be a gimmick but they've shown amazing results with such approaches. I'm not saying they will match or come close to the PS5 SSD performance, the PS5 SSD is far superior in terms of throughput, but with SFS's file I/O multiplier effects for example, you could see clever ways in which the XSX matches the PS5 in terms of asset streaming. The only clear advantage I see with the PS5 is in load times. The ability to load 8GB/s of data directly into RAM means you can eliminate load times as we know them. But if the XSX can hit 4.8GB/s then it can do something close as well. What's the difference between half a second and a second load time?

Here's a quote from Jason Ronald:


Sony can just do this by streaming in 8GB of data per second. But with XSX they need to use a combination of HW/SW. The SFS hardware in the GPU and the DirectStorage API can produce something similar despite the slower SSD, at the cost of negligible CPU overhead.


You're falling for their PR when there is already videos that prove you wrong.



Edit: Also virtually eliminate means load times still exist.
 
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Wings for Kratos? The idea is neat.

Meanwhile, Loki can transform into an animal. He can transform into an eagle, maybe also grow wings like this picture. A Loki game with an enhanced God of War gameplay, open-world of GTA, Norse setting in different realms and next-gen graphics sounds interesting.
Kratos had wings in God of War 2 and 3 (he "borrowed" them from Icarus in God of War 2).
 
You're falling for their PR when there is already videos that prove you wrong.



It's plausible that it will take ~6seconds for quick resume. Let's wait and see final results outside these demos. I think the marketing people are kind of messing up be releasing these. For example the SOD2 demo was clearly not tapping into the core of XVA.
 
You're falling for their PR when there is already videos that prove you wrong.



Edit: Also virtually eliminate means load times still exist.


how come it is "failing for pr" when ms says something, and believe in everything coming from Sony? That demo you are referring to is for xbone games, showing Xbsex improvements vs xbone loading of the same, unchanged game. This was discussed multiple times. We are yet to see similar demo from Sony, only thing we have heard is mark cerny presentation and Spider-Man demo which we dont have context of.
 
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I'm not sure what more can be learned about XVA, rntongo? The DirectStorage API is a file I/O update of what is nearly 30 years old and if they didn't update it for the SSD/Decompression block it would've taken 2 full Zen 2 cores for overhead. This has been dramatically reduced to 1/10th core which is excellent (but still uses precious resources from the CPU). SFS seems like a nice piece of software that makes streaming more efficient. It doesn't declare how much CPU it uses but I'm guessing there would be some cost at least as much as DirectStorage?

Basically from what Microsoft have discussed/disclosed about XVA with DF, Windows Central etc, is that they have some pretty nice software APIs to boost the speed and efficiency their two main hardware upgrades (SSD, Decompressor). Whether Microsoft have anything else they haven't discussed yet be it hardware or software, we'll have to wait and see.

I think for me personally I'd like to see what it actually achieves and a technical breakdown of how all this works. We know from Cerny's presentation that load times are basically gone.

I know SFS is fully hardware accelerated so no impact on CPU.
 
how come it is "failing for pr" when ms says something, and believe in everything coming from Sony? That demo you are referring to is for xbone games, showing Xbsex improvements vs xbone loading of the same, unchanged game. This was discussed multiple times. We yet to see similar demo from Sony, only thing we have heard is mark cerny presentation and Spider-Man demo which we dont have context of.

No, this is the quick switching video which shows load times when switching between games. Nothing at all to do with how a game was built.

And nobody criticises Sony because they have been straight forward with their message, no reading between lines like 'virtually' eliminating load times, they go for a simple 'no load screens'.

They've also directly stated that it is so fast that it feels unnatural so they need to add pauses. On top of all this they provided a demo that backs up their claim.
 
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Just a head's up, HZD isn't 1800P, it's 2160CB.

1800P is 3200 x 1800 progressive utilising 5,760,000 native pixels.

2160CB is a 3840 x 2160 framebuffer with every other pixel left out in a checkerboard pattern + reconstruction and is 4,147,200 native pixels.

I'd argue 1800p is preferable not because of the native pixels, but due to the temporal stability and its negligible difference compared to 2160p. But of course, it's >25% more computationally expensive. I believe checker-boarding is only preferable to sub 1620p resolutions as at that point there is a solid trade to be made in resolved detail vs temporal artifacting.

I think Insomniac's Temporal Injection and Unreal's TAAU are superior solutions that are also paired with dynamic resolution scaling.

All forms of reconstruction stand to benefit from higher framerates however, so if you're not heavily CPU bound it will make more sense to go with say 1512p+ with DRS & TI and target 60fps.

I'm hoping to see a lot favouring 1620p-2160p DRS @ 60fps, using VRS as an inverse to the DRS and TI/TAAU being used to fill in the gaps.
 
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